Absolutely Free or Not?

[nobdysfool]

Back in post # 69 you said 'election' is not salvation. Now you say if one is 'elect' they cannot be lost. So if one is part of the 'elect' he cannot be lost no matter what, hence election would be salvation. Now the question is; where does the bible say God will force the 'elect' to be obedient? Will God force the "elect" to be baptized, Mk 16:16?

Force is not involved, no one has ever said that, except you, which shows you aren't listening. You also show that you do not have the faintest clue as to how to properly understand Election and salvation. Read it again: Election is UNTO salvation. Election is NOT salvation itself. God chose, before creation, those whom He would bring to saving faith in Christ. That was Election. He predestined them to salvation based on His chosing of them, and set the time of their salvation. At the time appointed (by God), He brought them to Christ, regenerated their hearts to be able to hear and believe the Gospel, and receive Christ, and thereby completed the Election of God unto salvation.

You will say, but what about their free will? God forced them to believe! No He didn't. It is similar to knowing that you have a fatal illness, and only days to live, and another doctor, the head of all doctors, comes to you and
shows you that he has a cure for your disease, and proves it to you. At that point, if you choose his cure, are you forced to do so? I'd say no, because you are presented with a life-or-death choice. refuse the cure, and die, or receive the sure and live. Your natural inclination and desire would be to choose to live, would it not?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not nobdysfool, that whom ye yield yourself servant to obey, his servant ye are to to whom ye obey, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness." Obedience to God is what makes one righteous. Heb 11:8 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not yet seen, MOVED (OBEYED) with fear, PREPARED (WORKS) an ark to the saving of his house...and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Noah's obedient faith caused him to prepare an ark and become an heir of righteousness. Noah did not have "faith alone", for "faith alone" would not have moved him to prepare the ark and he then would not have been a heir of righteousness. James 2:23 Abraham believed the Lord and it was counted unto him for righteouness. Notice Abraham did not "believe alone", he had obedient faith, Heb 11:8, he obeyed.

Ah, so you believe that righteousness is by your own works, and by your own efforts to "earn" salvation from God? All by yourself, because God dare not violate your 'free will"? And you've always had the clear and unfettered choice to obey God? You are morally neutral with regard to sin? Is a man justified by faith, or by works? Whose righteousness do we possess as Christians? Our own, or Christ's Righteousness, imputed to us by faith and union in spirit with Him?

1 John 2:29, are you born of God nobdysfool? do you "doeth righteousness"?

1 Jn 3:7 he that doeth righteousness is righteous. 1 Jn 3:10 he that doeth not righteousness is not of God.

2 Tim 3:16 God gave us instruction on how to be righteous. God tells us what to do to be obedient to His will.

Rom 6:13 do you use your members as instruments of righteousness?

Rom 6:17,18 they were servants of sin but had OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine and being made free from sin, became servants of righteousness. Their obedience made them free from sin and servants of righteousness.

More?

Nice scriptures, but using them in an accusatory manner only underscores the bankruptcy of your position. You believe in righteosness by works.Tthat will not save you, or earn points with God.

I have said God is a fair and just God, not a coin flipper.

What is fair for God to do, in your opinion? You make the statement, now back it up.

The old "I'm right, your wrong" is not proof you have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit. The proof would lie in the fact your not properly expounding the scriptures.

And your proof for that would be....?

Because I don't agree with YOU? I could, by the same reasoning, say the same about you. But, I am not the standard, and neither are you. The Word of God is the standard. Not your opinion, or mine. Your theology is a mixture of mis-readings of scripture, self-hatched ideas about how God should act, and a clear belief that man is not any more than slightly sickened by sin, and that scriptures speaking of man as dead in sins is just hyperbole, exaggeration for effect. You don't even have a biblical view of sin, and man's position before God. No wonder you can't understand what is being said to you!

 

[jmacvols]

No, the reason has been given to you from Scripture, but you refuse to acknowledge it. When someone will not acknowledge what God says in His Word, that it is to the "praise of His Glory", then there is only one other option left which is that you prefer it be to the praise of man's glory and not God's.

No one has given the reason, so now I will, and it is........obedience. God basis His choices on obedience. The obedient will be saved, the disobedient will be lost.

I hate to break the news to you, but God is not obligated to conform to your idea of justice or fairness.

I am conforming to His will, that is what obedience is about. Calvinism says man is to do nothing, God does it all. Doing nothing = nonconforming.

Not according to Scripture. The natural man finds the Gospel to be utter foolisness(1 Corinthians 2).

Not true, dealt with this in my last post to you. Paul told the Ephesians be not unwise but understand what the will of the Lord is. When ye read ye may understand.

The topic wasn't "salvation" but justice and fairness. Stay on topic.

God's justice/fairness has to do with salvation. Everyone will be saved alike, God shows no partiality.

That is where you make a false assumption, of "salvation is random". You falsely assume so.

If salvation is not random, then there has to be a reason behind it, a reason Calvinism cannot explain because of its false ideas. (its obedience)

 

[jmacvols]

You're confounding subjection to character. Can God lie? No. Who told Him that He could not lie?

Please prove that God can do injustice, that He is not bound by anything and can do injustice...

Absolutely..God does have all sovereignty, but He also has a holy nature that limits His sovereignty. His holy nature will not let Him lie or be unjust.

 

[jmacvols]

In Romans chapter nine Paul explains God's election. He uses the example of the twins, not yet born, and specifically mentions that God made His sovereign choice before they had the opportunity to do anything good or bad in order to demonstrate God's sovereign choice. Remember, in this passage, Paul is speaking about the nature of Salvation. Paul also anticipates man's argument. God is not just.



10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

What here prevented God from using His foreknowledge of Esau and Jacob? If God foreknew that Jacob would be obedient to Him whereas Esau would not, it would only make sense for God to choose Jacob to bring God's people into existence. Heb 11:20 if Jacob and Esau own father had 'concerned things to come', why wouldn't God also 'concern things to come'.

 

[jmacvols]

The poster making the assertion that God be fair and that justice is equivalent to fairness should support his assertion rather than deflect.

If God is to meet his idea of fairness, then the question I raised yesterday of Jesus healing some and not all would not fit his idea of fairness either.



God is Just to condemn any to hell, and is Merciful to save those He chooses.



Noah was a sinner just like all of us, but he found Grace in the eyes of God.

Where the semi-pelagian gets confused is in their lack of understanding of the depth and seriousness of sin in the eyes of God.



One sin to an infinitely Holy and infinitely Righteous God is infinitely sinful, which is to say that the offense is of an infinite value to an infinitely Holy God. Which is why the one sin of Adam infected all of humanity because all of humanity was seminally present with Adam when he sinned againsted God.

James puts it this way, saying that at whatever point one breaks one of God's laws, then you are guilty of all of God's laws.

If we are guilty of breaking all of God's laws, and our sin is of an infinite value in the eyes of God, then Noah, just like us, would be found, in and of himself, to have no intrinsic righteousness or goodness that would cause God to choose Noah, or us, based on any good thing found in us whatsoever, for there is none, in the eyes of God.

No, Noah found Grace in the eyes of God, for if God executed Justice with Noah, then Noah and his family would have perished just like the rest.

Was it fair that God choose Noah and not the others?

Was God Just in choosing Noah and not others?


The semi-pelagian lets his philosophy guide him and not Scripture, for if Scripture was his giude he wouldn't be so confused about the nature of sin in the eyes of God, and would realize that we all are deserving of nothing short of hell, and have no goodness within us apart from God's Grace and Mercy.

Many verses indicate that God is not a respector of person, hence He cannot then act randomly, but have a reason for His choices and that reason would be applied to everyman. (its obedience)

 

[jmacvols]

Tongue in cheek (somewhat):



Interesting that God allowed Israel to determine his will by the throw of dice (Urrim and Thummim) and that the Apostles determined the repalcement of Judas by the drawing of lots. God could indeed choose by the toss of a coin, he controls the coin.
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Acts 1:24--All the apostles were chosen, throwing the lots allowed them to know who was already chosen. There was no randomness as to whom would be the next apostle, as there is no random choice by God as to whom will be saved or lost. So yes God would "control the coin", because He has a reason for His choices about salvation. (its obedience)

 

[jmacvols]

So you say God does not have to be fair and just?...

QUOTE]

What I said was...
God does not say in Scripture that He is fair. God does say in Scripture that He is Just. It was someone else's idea that fair and just are one and the same.

What do you see as the difference between fair and just?
Can something be fair and unjust at the same time or vice versa?

 

[nobdysfool]

Many verses indicate that God is not a respector of person, hence He cannot then act randomly, but have a reason for His choices and that reason would be applied to everyman. (its obedience)

God is not a man, that He should lie, neither the son of man, that He should repent. Hath He said, and shall He not do it, Hath He not spoken and not bring it to pass?" (Numbers 23:19)

You have a fatal flaw in your theology. If god's choice is conditioned on obedience, then for Him to choose the obedient is to be a respecter of persons.

No Calvinist has ever said that God chooses randomly, or acts randomly. That is your misinterpretation of Calvinism, because you refuse to do due diligence to actually find out and learn what Calvinism teaches, rather than take other people's word for it, and most likely, other anti-Calvinists.

Just because you can't understand, (and God has not revealed) the reason He chose whom He did, doesn't mean He couldn't do it. Hhe is not obligated to tell you why He does as He does.

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deu 29:29)

You say God's Sovereignty is limited by His Holiness and Justice. That's an anthropomorphic view of God. God is the very definition of Justice and Holiness, and therefore is not limited in the way you want to think.

You're just digging your hole deeper.

First rule: When you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!

 

[Outrider]

because He has a reason for His choices about salvation. (its obedience)

Obedience is the basis for divine judgement, not salvation. God's reason for choosing is unknown beyond the counsel of his will. To presume to know the reason is to presume to be party to the Trinity.

 

[holdon]

If god's choice is conditioned on obedience, then for Him to choose the obedient is to be a respecter of persons.

Then you don't understand what the term "respecter of persons" means.

You say God's Sovereignty is limited by His Holiness and Justice. That's an anthropomorphic view of God. God is the very definition of Justice and Holiness, and therefore is not limited in the way you want to think.

If God is the very definition of Justice and Holiness, He cannot be unjust or unholy, no matter what view you have. Anthropomorphism has nothing to do with it.

 

[holdon]

Obedience is the basis for dinine judgement, not salvation. Gos's reason for choosing is unknown beyond the counsel of his will. To presume to know the reason is to presume to be party to the Trinity.

Can we know who God chose? How do you know you're a chosen one?

 

[nobdysfool]

Then you don't understand what the term "respecter of persons" means.

Why don't you enlighten us all, then?

If God is the very definition of Justice and Holiness, He cannot be unjust or unholy, no matter what view you have. Anthropomorphism has nothing to do with it.

But your reason for making such a statement is to claim that Calvinism makes God "unfair" and "unloving", because He actually executes Justice on sinners, and declares that "the soul that sins shall die". You view that as a threat, not an actuality. In your mind, He MUST give everyone a "fair chance" or He would be unfair.

Please show us in the Scriptures where God has, throughout all time, given every person without exception a "fair chance" at salvation.

 

[Outrider]

Can we know who God chose? How do you know you're a chosen one?

I'm sorry. I was not aware that this discussion had changed from a biblical and doctrinal nature to a time of sharing personal testimonies. If, however, the question is generic in nature, I would refer you to the book of I John for assurance of salvation.

 

[Outrider]

The "fair chance" ended when Adam ate the fruit. Now follows justice and mercy based upon the saving work of Christ.

 

[jmacvols]

Force is not involved, no one has ever said that, except you, which shows you aren't listening. You also show that you do not have the faintest clue as to how to properly understand Election and salvation. Read it again: Election is UNTO salvation. Election is NOT salvation itself. God chose, before creation, those whom He would bring to saving faith in Christ. That was Election. He predestined them to salvation based on His chosing of them, and set the time of their salvation. At the time appointed (by God), He brought them to Christ, regenerated their hearts to be able to hear and believe the Gospel, and receive Christ, and thereby completed the Election of God unto salvation.

You can't have it both ways. You say if one is 'elect' he is saved and cannot be lost. This would be salvation. This is not UNTO salvation but this is guaranteed salvation, if the 'elect' is saved and cannot be lost.

Now you say forced obedience is not involved. In post #73 you say "IF God cannot ensure that His elect do, in fact, come to salvation (because He is the one who brings them there), then God is not Omnipotent. Certainly you don't believe that God cannot fail to bring to pass what He chooses?" In post # 69 you say "At the appointed time by God (yes, He excercises absolute control over all the affairs of men) the Elect are brought to a saving knowledge of Christ, via regeneration...." then you say "not by force of coercion, but by free choice of the newly born, newly freed from sin...."

On one hand you question God's omnipotence if God cannot ensure His 'elect' comes to salvation, and that God cannot fail to bring to pass what He chooses, that God exercises absolute control over men. This then is God ensuring--forcing--the elect to obey, for if the elect do not obey, that means God has failed to bring to pass what He chooses, that He does not have absolute control over men.

Then you say not by force, but free choice. If the 'elect' have free choice, then the 'elect' may very well choose not to obey. And if the 'elect' chooses not to obey then God steps in and ensures ie forces them to obey? Also, if the 'elect' has free choice, then Hitler and Stalin can be part of the 'elect' and use their free choice not to obey God.

You will say, but what about their free will? God forced them to believe! No He didn't. It is similar to knowing that you have a fatal illness, and only days to live, and another doctor, the head of all doctors, comes to you and
shows you that he has a cure for your disease, and proves it to you. At that point, if you choose his cure, are you forced to do so? I'd say no, because you are presented with a life-or-death choice. refuse the cure, and die, or receive the sure and live. Your natural inclination and desire would be to choose to live, would it not?

You analogy to try and wiggle out of the situation you've created fails.

(1)If one can freely reject the cure, then he can freely reject Gods omnipotence to 'ensure' his obedience and hence be a "saved disobedient elected one".
(2)You also say one can refuse the cure and die, but you have said the 'elect' cannot be lost (die), hence if the 'elect' reject the cure (God's 'ensuring' their obedience), then they will still live (be saved).

Ah, so you believe that righteousness is by your own works, and by your own efforts to "earn" salvation from God? All by yourself, because God dare not violate your 'free will"? And you've always had the clear and unfettered choice to obey God? You are morally neutral with regard to sin? Is a man justified by faith, or by works? Whose righteousness do we possess as Christians? Our own, or Christ's Righteousness, imputed to us by faith and union in spirit with Him?

I never said that righteousness is by my own works. I have said over and over and over obedient to the works God gave man to do--believe, repent, confess, baptism. When one 'believes' he is doing a obedient work God gave him to do, not a work of his own. You misunderstand the difference between obedient works and meritorious works.

Nice scriptures, but using them in an accusatory manner only underscores the bankruptcy of your position. You believe in righteosness by works.Tthat will not save you, or earn points with God.

Nice deflection attempt, but from the tone of your above quote, they seem to hit a soft spot. No verses to back up your ideas?

What is fair for God to do, in your opinion? You make the statement, now back it up.

Not my opinion, but God wil judge all men with the same basis---obedience.

And your proof for that would be....?

Because I don't agree with YOU? I could, by the same reasoning, say the same about you. But, I am not the standard, and neither are you. The Word of God is the standard. Not your opinion, or mine. Your theology is a mixture of mis-readings of scripture, self-hatched ideas about how God should act, and a clear belief that man is not any more than slightly sickened by sin, and that scriptures speaking of man as dead in sins is just hyperbole, exaggeration for effect. You don't even have a biblical view of sin, and man's position before God. No wonder you can't understand what is being said to you!

The proof is in the scriptures, no where does the bible say God elected certain individuals to be saved and all else will be lost. No where does the bible say after the church began in Acts 2 that salvation is by 'faith alone". No where does the bible say man is totally depraved that he can do nothing about his own salvation. More?

 

[holdon]

I wrote:

Quote

If God is the very definition of Justice and Holiness, He cannot be unjust or unholy, no matter what view you have. Anthropomorphism has nothing to do with it.

And you reply:

But your reason for making such a statement is to claim that Calvinism makes God "unfair" and "unloving", because He actually executes Justice on sinners, and declares that "the soul that sins shall die". You view that as a threat, not an actuality. In your mind, He MUST give everyone a "fair chance" or He would be unfair.

Hellooo! Did I say must? But God so loved the world... Was that a good world? No. Yet He loved it. But he that does not believe God has made him a liar.

Please show us in the Scriptures where God has, throughout all time, given every person without exception a "fair chance" at salvation.

I think this is fair enough:
"for from the world's creation the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity, -- so as to render them inexcusable."

 

[holdon]

I'm sorry. I was not aware that this discussion had changed from a biblical and doctrinal nature to a time of sharing personal testimonies. If, however, the question is generic in nature, I would refer you to the book of I John for assurance of salvation.

Sidestepping?

 

[jmacvols]

God is not a man, that He should lie, neither the son of man, that He should repent. Hath He said, and shall He not do it, Hath He not spoken and not bring it to pass?" (Numbers 23:19)

You have a fatal flaw in your theology. If god's choice is conditioned on obedience, then for Him to choose the obedient is to be a respecter of persons.

God's choice about salvation is based on obedience, Heb 5:9. One knows before hand the obedient will be saved and the disobedient lost.
The disobedient can be obedient if they so choose or vice versa. One is not born 'locked' into being obedient or disobedient. One has a choice.
Your position is one is either 'elect' or 'not elect' from the foundation of the world. One has no choice. One would be 'elect' because God had respect for him over the 'nonelect' for whatever reason.

Acts 10:34,35--Then Peter opened his mouth and said of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of person. But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.
Everyone that is saved will be saved for the same reason--obedience.

No Calvinist has ever said that God chooses randomly, or acts randomly. That is your misinterpretation of Calvinism, because you refuse to do due diligence to actually find out and learn what Calvinism teaches, rather than take other people's word for it, and most likely, other anti-Calvinists.

Then what reason did God use to choose Jacob over Esau?
EDIT: if you say God's reasons are "hid from man" or such like, then His basis could be random? If not, how would you know if it is 'hid from man'?

Just because you can't understand, (and God has not revealed) the reason He chose whom He did, doesn't mean He couldn't do it. Hhe is not obligated to tell you why He does as He does.

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deu 29:29)

God did not 'elect' certain individuals, He elected a class of people--Christians from the foundation of the world. One can choose to be a Christian or not.

You say God's Sovereignty is limited by His Holiness and Justice. That's an anthropomorphic view of God. God is the very definition of Justice and Holiness, and therefore is not limited in the way you want to think.

You're just digging your hole deeper.

First rule: When you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!

So you are saying God can lie and be unjust if He so chooses?

 

[jmacvols]

Obedience is the basis for divine judgement, not salvation.

So God can judge one to be obedient and then condemn that person? Heb 5:9?

Before I said God has all sovereignty, but his sovereignty is limited by His holy nature. His holy nature will not allow God to lie. God has promised salvation to the obedient and condemnation to the disobedient. These are promises God cannot break, if He does, He lies. When God acts or makes a choice, His act or choice has to fall within the boundaries of His holy nature. So when it comes judgment day, the obedient will HAVE to be saved and the disobedient condemned, or else God lies.

God's reason for choosing is unknown beyond the counsel of his will. To presume to know the reason is to presume to be party to the Trinity.

God has made it known in the bible, He would not leave us in the dark about salvation. How do you know that faith saves? From the bible? a guess?

 

[Outrider]

Sidestepping?

Not taking the bait. Experience is measured by Scripture, not the reverse. Its that simple. I don't think I've shown any unwillingness to face your issues to this point and I see no need to defend myself. Debate is an exercise of issues, so let's stick to them? I feel no obligation to enter any ground you require for discussion. If you want to take that as cowardice, fine, but understand, I am not a student of Schleiermacher or Kant and I do not accept that individual experience is the definition of religious truth. That's why we have the Bible and it is more than sufficient for such things.

The Bible speaks to where we gain assurance of salvation. It is through self-examination on the basis of bearing fruit. Fruit is the evidence of life in the Vine. Where there is no fruit or where there is bad fruit, there is no life. Where there is fruit there is life. Its really quite simple.