Absolutely Free or Not?

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Not if He extends His grace to some and withhold it from others for no apparent reason.

The reason has been given to you, in Scripture, but you reject it.

If you filed a lawsuit against someone that plainly wronged you, and on the day the hearing was held, the judge flipped a coin-- heads you win your case, tails the case is dismissed--would you be pleased if it came up tails? Would you feel justice has been rendered on the flip of a coin? Would it be 'fair'?

False assumption.

Saying things like God hides the truth from some or God works in mysterious ways does not answer the question, it is more along the lines of avoiding it.

Actually, as was answered already, an answer that you reject because you want God to fit YOUR idea of what is fair and just, has been given from Ephesians.

Here it is again so you can complain to God some more that He is not fair or just:

Ephesians 1;
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[b] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So, why does God hide some things from some and not from others?

That's not fair, is it?

Was it fair that Jesus healed some and not others when Jesus could have healed all?

Paul has already addressed your complaint that God is not fair or just.

Romans 9;
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[b] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”[c]
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[e]

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea:


“ I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[h]
26 “ And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

‘ You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[i]

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:[j]


“ Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”[k]

29 And as Isaiah said before:


“ Unless the LORD of Sabaoth[l]had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”[m]

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.[n] 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[o] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:


“ Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[p]




Soli Deo Gloria

 

[JustinWindsor]

Small detail you left out here. Jesus said he that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED. The conjunction "and" ties the two together so if 'belief' is necessary so is 'baptism'. "AND" keeps you from separating the two.



They show that salvation is dependant upon whether or not man chooses to obey Christ's command to believe and be baptized.

They do not show that salvation is not dependant on free grace.

 

[jmacvols]

Can't deal with the plain truth of scriptures?

Yes I can, but it is Calvinism I am dealing with now.

God is not beholden to man's concept of fairness, because man's concept springs from a biased and unscriptural view of the world and of his own sinfulness.

God is a just God, randomness has nothing to do with justice.

We are not sinful because we sin, we sin because we're sinful. Another way to put it, we are not evil because we do evil deeds, we do evil deeds because we are evil. Only God can alter that fact. Man is completely unable to do one thing to change it. Any doctrine which teaches that man has the ability to choose whether to be a sinner or a saint of his own free will and his own motivation is a false doctrine.

Man has as much ability to do what is right as he does wrong. IF man can only do evil and only God can alter that fact, then God is to blame for those that are lost. If man is just an innocent victim of God, then why doesn't God save all men? Cain and Abel had the ability to choose to do right or wrong. Heb 11:4 Abel was righteous because he had the ability within himself to do what pleased God. Cain had this same ability, Gen 4:7 God asked Cain, if thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? Of course Cain was able to do well and be accepted. God warned Cain that sin lied at the door but that Cain shall rule over him. Cain no doubt could have done what pleased God if he so chose to, but Cain allowed sin to rule over him, unlike Abel, who chose to rule over sin.

 

[jmacvols]

Not if He extends His grace to some and withhold it from others for no apparent reason.
If you filed a lawsuit against someone that plainly wronged you, and on the day the hearing was held, the judge flipped a coin-- heads you win your case, tails the case is dismissed--would you be pleased if it came up tails? Would you feel justice has been rendered on the flip of a coin? Would it be 'fair'?...QUOTE]

There you go trying to rationalize who God is by your own worldly standards and definitions.

God is Just (by His definitions as revealed in Scripture alone)
God promises Wrath (by His definitions as revealed in Scripture alone)
God is Love (by His definitions as revealed in Scripture alone)

You can do a word search on these and other words in the Bible at studybibleforum.com if you wish. But what you will not find, ever, anywhere, is God, in Scripture calling Himself FAIR.

He answers to no one, least of all His creatures. He does not have to prove anything to anyone. He has told you all you need to know about Him in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. Human nature is to question God's Scripture. The Born Again from Above nature is to accept it.

Where is justice to be found in the flip of a coin? Heb 13:4 God will judge the whoremongers and adulterers. How will God judge them? Flip a coin, heads they will be saved--tails they will be lost? Would it be to novel an idea that God might judge them according to their deeds? That God will judge everyman according to his deeds?

 

[JustinWindsor]

Where is justice to be found in the flip of a coin? Heb 13:4 God will judge the whoremongers and adulterers. How will God judge them? Flip a coin, heads they will be saved--tails they will be lost? Would it be to novel an idea that God might judge them according to their deeds? That God will judge everyman according to his deeds?

Never mind Calvin, Augustine, or Spurgeon...Paul is an Apostle and shares with us the truth of the Gospel. This is found, among many other place, in Romans chapter 1. Also according to Paul in Romans 1, evil deeds are symptoms of unbelief. Those who perish will perish due to their unbelief, condemned by their deeds.

The Scriptures are either condemning you or saving you. Your deeds, before being born again are as filthy rags in God's eyes. You are trying to save yourself. They stand to your condemnation. If you are born again it is because you believe. Your good works then will be jewels in your crown. But your works most certainly won't save you. Nor will a work of human will or belief.

According to Paul in Ephesians 1, those who will be saved, those who will believe, are those who are;

1. chosen by God the Father according to the pleasure of His good will,
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

2. redeemed by the Son;
In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

3. sealed by the Holy Spirit
11In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

There you have it...by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, and I can know this through Scripture alone.

 

[jmacvols]

What would make you think that Hitler or Stalin were part of the Elect? If they had been, God would have brought them to saving faith while they were still living, and they would not have done all the atrocities that they did. Election is unto certain salvation, not a license to do whatever you want.

What would make you think they would not be part of the 'elect'? They meet the 'qualifications' of Rom 9 --they had neither done good or evil before they were born and God would not base His decision on whom to elect by their works.
Are you saying being part of the "elect" is not enough to be saved, that one has to both be part of the 'elect' AND have God bring/make/force them to be brought to saving faith while they were still alive?

Because it was right according to God that it be so. God chose to bless Noah, and his family, and Noah believed God, and was declared righteous by God by faith.

Gen 6:5-8-- all the thoughts and imaginations of men were evil, """BUT""" Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Now what is the obvious reason Naoh found grace in the Lords' eyes. Was it because he did evil continually too? Or because he was obedient to what the Lord told him, Gen 7:1,5.

You have a choice here: Believe that the Word is correct when it says and clearly shows that not all will be saved, and why, or deny the Word, and go the rest of the way into Universal Salvation.

The word is correct when it teaches man's salvation is dependant on his own obedience to the Lord. If there is no universal salvation, then according to you, God is to blame for those that are lost.

 

[JustinWindsor]

What would make you think they would not be part of the 'elect'? They meet the 'qualifications' of Rom 9 --they had neither done good or evil before they were born and God would not base His decision on whom to elect by their works.
Are you saying being part of the "elect" is not enough to be saved, that one has to both be part of the 'elect' AND have God bring/make/force them to be brought to saving faith while they were still alive?




Gen 6:5-8-- all the thoughts and imaginations of men were evil, """BUT""" Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Now what is the obvious reason Naoh found grace in the Lords' eyes. Was it because he did evil continually too? Or because he was obedient to what the Lord told him, Gen 7:1,5.





The word is correct when it teaches man's salvation is dependant on his own obedience to the Lord. If there is no universal salvation, then according to you, God is to blame for those that are lost.

Nope...man gets the entire blame for being lost. Not because it is fair, but because God says so in Scripture. If you are saved it is entirely to God's credit. Again, not because it is fair, but because Scripture testifies it to be so.

 

[jmacvols]

The reason has been given to you, in Scripture, but you reject it.

No one has given a reason, other than to say it is God's will. Then why is it God's will that some be saved and some lost?

False assumption.

Why? Flipping a coin would not be justice in a court of law, but it would be justice on judgment day?

Actually, as was answered already, an answer that you reject because you want God to fit YOUR idea of what is fair and just, has been given from Ephesians.

Here it is again so you can complain to God some more that He is not fair or just:

Ephesians 1;
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[b] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Again why does God's will save some and not others?

So, why does God hide some things from some and not from others?

That's not fair, is it?

Man can find, but he has to look, some will look, most will not.

Was it fair that Jesus healed some and not others when Jesus could have healed all?

Being healed and being saved are two different things. What were the requirements to be healed by Jesus? What are the requirments to be saved? Everyone needs salvation, not everyone is not physically sick and need to be healed. Those that are whole need not a physician.

Paul has already addressed your complaint that God is not fair or just.

Romans 9;
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[b] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”[c]
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[e]

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Nohwere in Romans 9 does it say salvation is random.

25 As He says also in Hosea:


“ I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[h]
26 “ And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

‘ You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[i]

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:[j]


“ Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”[k]

29 And as Isaiah said before:


“ Unless the LORD of Sabaoth[l]had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”[m]

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.[n] 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[o] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:


“ Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[p]




Soli Deo Gloria

And?

 

[nobdysfool]

What would make you think they would not be part of the 'elect'? They meet the 'qualifications' of Rom 9 --they had neither done good or evil before they were born and God would not base His decision on whom to elect by their works.
Are you saying being part of the "elect" is not enough to be saved, that one has to both be part of the 'elect' AND have God bring/make/force them to be brought to saving faith while they were still alive?

Election is NOT salvation. It never has been, and no Calvinist has ever said it was. Election is UNTO salvation. At the time appointed by God (yes, He exercises absolute control over all the affairs of men), the Elect are brought to saving knowledge of Christ, via regeneration, hearing the Word, and exercising the resultant faith in Christ, not by force or coercion, but by the free choice of the newly born, newly freed from sin, nature of the regenerated spirit of the man. It is purely of Grace, and not of man's works, obedience, or works of righteousness. Salvation is ALL of God, NONE of man. Man's obedience springs from his salvation, not the other way around.

Gen 6:5-8-- all the thoughts and imaginations of men were evil, """BUT""" Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Now what is the obvious reason Naoh found grace in the Lords' eyes. Was it because he did evil continually too? Or because he was obedient to what the Lord told him, Gen 7:1,5.

And Noah did this all by himself? Because he was better than those around him? Smarter? More righteous? Just an all-around "good guy"?

The word is correct when it teaches man's salvation is dependant on his own obedience to the Lord. If there is no universal salvation, then according to you, God is to blame for those that are lost.

Obedience is the RESULT of salvation, not the cause of it. You need to do some serious study, because you have either failed to understand the Word correctly, and need the Holy Spirit to teach you, OR you have been fed a bunch of falsehoods and bad doctrine by someone else who is in even greater need of teaching than you. Either way, you are in some serious error.

 

[jmacvols]

Nope...man gets the entire blame for being lost. Not because it is fair, but because God says so in Scripture. If you are saved it is entirely to God's credit. Again, not because it is fair, but because Scripture testifies it to be so.

So on one hand man can do nothing about his own salvation, it takes an act of God to save him, but then man is to blame for his own condemnation, even though he cannot do anything about it. And this is suppose to be just? If God is in control of each individual's eternal destiny, then how can man be responsible for his salvation or condemnation? You say "If you are saved it is entirely to God's credit." So if I am lost it is entirely God's credit for that too. You can't give God credit for one and not the other. He is in control of both.

 

[jmacvols]

Election is NOT salvation. It never has been, and no Calvinist has ever said it was. Election is UNTO salvation. At the time appointed by God (yes, He exercises absolute control over all the affairs of men), the Elect are brought to saving knowledge of Christ, via regeneration, hearing the Word, and exercising the resultant faith in Christ, not by force or coercion, but by the free choice of the newly born, newly freed from sin, nature of the regenerated spirit of the man. It is purely of Grace, and not of man's works, obedience, or works of righteousness. Salvation is ALL of God, NONE of man. Man's obedience springs from his salvation, not the other way around.

So one that is part of God's "elect" can be lost then? If so, for what reason?

And Noah did this all by himself? Because he was better than those around him? Smarter? More righteous? Just an all-around "good guy"?

Where does it say God made Noah to be righteous? If God made Noah to be righteous, then why did not God make all men righteous and why would God make himself to repent that He made man and make His heart to grieve, Gen 6:6? All God had to do was make all men obey and His heart would not grieve and He would be glad He made man. God would not purposely make Himself to grieve.

Obedience is the RESULT of salvation, not the cause of it. You need to do some serious study, because you have either failed to understand the Word correctly, and need the Holy Spirit to teach you, OR you have been fed a bunch of falsehoods and bad doctrine by someone else who is in even greater need of teaching than you. Either way, you are in some serious error.

As already pointed out, Mk 16:16 Jesus put belief and baptism (obedience) before salvation. Have you been "taught" by the Holy Spirit? If so how, when and what objective proof can you give that you have?

 

[nobdysfool]

So on one hand man can do nothing about his own salvation, it takes an act of God to save him, but then man is to blame for his own condemnation, even though he cannot do anything about it. And this is suppose to be just? If God is in control of each individual's eternal destiny, then how can man be responsible for his salvation or condemnation? You say "If you are saved it is entirely to God's credit." So if I am lost it is entirely God's credit for that too. You can't give God credit for one and not the other. He is in control of both.

Friend, Your problem is not with Calvinists, it's with the Word of God. Your complaints about fairness, justice, and who's responsible for what, indicate that you do not understand things very well, and have placed on yourself responsibilities you can't keep, and have developed a very skewed view of God, and the gospel. You certainly don't understand Calvinism at all, proven by your questions, which you think pose unsolvable problems for us, but in reality show your lack of understanding of even the basics.

Instead of getting defensive, you need to listen.

 

[nobdysfool]

So one that is part of God's "elect" can be lost then? If so, for what reason?

No, they cannot be lost, if they're Elect, because Election is unto salvation, and that salvation is sure. If God cannot ensure that His Elect do, in fact, come to salvation (because He is the One who brings them there), then God is not Omnipotent. Certainly you don't believe that God cannot fail to bring to pass what He chooses?

Where does it say God made Noah to be righteous? If God made Noah to be righteous, then why did not God make all men righteous and why would God make himself to repent that He made man and make His heart to grieve, Gen 6:6? All God had to do was make all men obey and His heart would not grieve and He would be glad He made man. God would not purposely make Himself to grieve.

Where does scripture say that you can make yourself righteous? If you can't, then neither could Noah. No man can make himself righteous, or he would not need a Savior. If Noah pleased God by his obedience, it was because God enabled Noah to do so. Election to salvation is God's to give. not man's to demand, or to criticize.

You have a very anthropomorphic view of God. You imagine Him to be just a bigger version of our own selves, complete with all the emotional turmoil and heartache we suffer. Nothing could be further from the Truth!

As already pointed out, Mk 16:16 Jesus put belief and baptism (obedience) before salvation. Have you been "taught" by the Holy Spirit? If so how, when and what objective proof can you give that you have?

Evidence that you have bwen taught by the Holy Spirit rests in being able to properly expound the scriptures, and rightly divide the Word of Truth. You are doing neither.

Demands for "proof" from those who will not be taught is an empty demand, and an avoidance mechanism to avoid dealing with the clear lack of knowledge displayed.

 

[JustinWindsor]

So on one hand man can do nothing about his own salvation, it takes an act of God to save him, but then man is to blame for his own condemnation, even though he cannot do anything about it. And this is suppose to be just? If God is in control of each individual's eternal destiny, then how can man be responsible for his salvation or condemnation? You say "If you are saved it is entirely to God's credit." So if I am lost it is entirely God's credit for that too. You can't give God credit for one and not the other. He is in control of both.

You, apparently, are having a problem with the wisdom of God. "It is not fair!" is the cry of natural man who spends his whole life trying to save himself, blame God for his failures, and trying to invent his own god and his own salvation. Yet the truth is clear in God's Scripture. Hear the apostle Paul speaking to this very conundrum of man in 1 Cor;


18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."


20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

I was chosen before the world, as we know it, began. I was nothing, I was foolish, I was spiritually dead, I was utterly lost in sin. Then, upon receiving the word of God, the message of the Gospel which is contained and conveyed in Scripture, I was born again, from above.

May God add His blessing upon you as well.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Mk 16:16 Jesus put belief and baptism BEFORE salvation, so it is obvoius obedience comes before salvation. God would not leave us in the dark when it comes to slavation.

No, Mark 16:16 is not related to the ordo salutis, but are commands to believe and be baptized, just as the command to repent.

Unless the Spirit first transform the "natural man" into the "spiritual man" as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2, he cannot understand the Gospel and "things of God", but indeed finds them to be utter foolishness.

1 Corinthians 2;
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A man cannot believe what he does not know and finds to be foolishness.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

No one has given a reason, other than to say it is God's will. Then why is it God's will that some be saved and some lost?

No, the reason has been given to you from Scripture, but you refuse to acknowledge it. When someone will not acknowledge what God says in His Word, that it is to the "praise of His Glory", then there is only one other option left which is that you prefer it be to the praise of man's glory and not God's.

Why? Flipping a coin would not be justice in a court of law, but it would be justice on judgment day?

I hate to break the news to you, but God is not obligated to conform to your idea of justice or fairness.

Again why does God's will save some and not others?

The answer has been given in Scripture. Read it again, and again, and again, and again, until you get it.

Man can find, but he has to look, some will look, most will not.

Not according to Scripture. The natural man finds the Gospel to be utter foolisness(1 Corinthians 2).

Being healed and being saved are two different things. What were the requirements to be healed by Jesus? What are the requirments to be saved? Everyone needs salvation, not everyone is not physically sick and need to be healed. Those that are whole need not a physician.

The topic wasn't "salvation" but justice and fairness. Stay on topic.

Nohwere in Romans 9 does it say salvation is random.

That is where you make a false assumption, of "salvation is random". You falsely assume so.

And?

Why do you reject God choosing for the praise of His Glory?

 

[holdon]

I hate to break the news to you, but God is not obligated to conform to your idea of justice or fairness.

Are you saying that God is not bound by justice and fairness? If He doesn't give us an example of what is just and fair, then who does?

 

[JustinWindsor]

I hate to break the news to you, but God is not obligated to conform to your idea of justice or fairness.

Are you saying that God is not bound by justice and fairness? If He doesn't give us an example of what is just and fair, then who does?

The entire body of Scripture characterizes what is JUST in the eyes of God. He defines JUST, not us. Scripture does not say that God is fair. "Fairness" is a human concept.

 

[holdon]

I was chosen before the world, as we know it, began. I was nothing, I was foolish, I was spiritually dead, I was utterly lost in sin.

All were foolish, dead and lost. How can God make a choice between one and the other? He is no respector of persons; which means that on His side there is no bias. In and of ourselves, we are all in the same situation: sinners. How can He choose between identicals? Isn't that a logical fallacy?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I hate to break the news to you, but God is not obligated to conform to your idea of justice or fairness.

The entire body of Scripture characterizes what is JUST in the eyes of God. He defines JUST, not us. Scripture does not say that God is fair. "Fairness" is a human concept.

Exactly. Looks like whoever said that(obviously someone I have on ignore) also misrepresented what I said as well. I said God is not obligated to conform to the poster's idea of justice and fairness, not that God is not Just.

It would be nice if the poster refrained from misrepresenting statements, it's intellectually dishonest.