Absolutely Free or Not?

[jmacvols]

His free act of grace. In your theology of works-righteousness, you would force God against His free act of grace. And once again you set yourself up as a far better, superior person than the rest of us since you will be declared righteous by virtue of your acts of obedience.

Douglas

You, like Augustine_was_Calvinst, fail to understand the difference between obedient works and meritorious works. "Belief" is an obedient work God gave man to do, Jn 6:29, it is not an obedient work man thought up himself to do to earn/merit his salvation. In Lk 13:3,5 Jesus commands to repent or perish. Now if one wishes to be saved and he humbly follows Jesus' command to repent, you will make fun of them and say they are superior to others, but if they disobey Jesus' command they will perish. Just like Augustine_was_Calvinist, you put people between a rock and a hard place. In Jn 3:36 he that believes on the Son has everlasting life, he that disobeys by not believing the Son shall not see life. So those that wish to be saved will humbly believe and you will make fun of them and say they are superior, but if they disobey the Lord and do not believe they shall not be saved.

 

[jmacvols]

This was answered in JustinWindsor post:
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Hello littleapologist,

But this verse does not give a reason why God would choose some to be saved and others He chooses to be lost. What is the purpose of His will? Why does He 'will' some to be saved and others lost? It there a reason behind 'His will' or does 'His will' just make random choices?

 

[Beoga]

Hello littleapologist,

But this verse does not give a reason why God would choose some to be saved and others He chooses to be lost. What is the purpose of His will? Why does He 'will' some to be saved and others lost? It there a reason behind 'His will' or does 'His will' just make random choices?

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
You can call God's choice random, but I have never known God to be random, and Scripture does not speak of a random God. Sometimes we may not see or understand why God does something, but that does not make what God does random (anyways, the arguement from "random choice" is not a substantive arguement, but one made to stir up the emotions). Scripture only says that God chose us out of love, to display His Glory, based on the Council of His Will. If that is all Scripture speaks about, that is all I am going to speak about.

 

[jmacvols]

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
You can call God's choice random, but I have never known God to be random, and Scripture does not speak of a random God. Sometimes we may not see or understand why God does something, but that does not make what God does random (anyways, the arguement from "random choice" is not a substantive arguement, but one made to stir up the emotions). Scripture only says that God chose us out of love, to display His Glory, based on the Council of His Will. If that is all Scripture speaks about, that is all I am going to speak about.

I agree that God's choices are not random. If His choices are not random, then that means there has to be a purpose/reason behind them, but you suggest that we cannot understand God enough to know the purpose/reason? The bible gives more than ample information to understand that the purpose/reason one is saved and another not is related to obedience or lack of to God's will. If one does not believe that obedience is necessary for salvation, then God's purpose/reason has to remain a mystery. Can one know if he will be saved or not?

 

[mlqurgw]

I agree that God's choices are not random. If His choices are not random, then that means there has to be a purpose/reason behind them, but you suggest that we cannot understand God enough to know the purpose/reason? The bible gives more than ample information to understand that the purpose/reason one is saved and another not is related to obedience or lack of to God's will. If one does not believe that obedience is necessary for salvation, then God's purpose/reason has to remain a mystery. Can one know if he will be saved or not?

Actually God has told us the purpose/reason of why He saves. Eph. 1:6, it is to the praise of the glory of His grace, and Eph. 2:7, That( for this reason) in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 

[DouglasMabry]

You, like Augustine_was_Calvinst, fail to understand the difference between obedient works and meritorious works. "Belief" is an obedient work God gave man to do, Jn 6:29, it is not an obedient work man thought up himself to do to earn/merit his salvation. In Lk 13:3,5 Jesus commands to repent or perish. Now if one wishes to be saved and he humbly follows Jesus' command to repent, you will make fun of them and say they are superior to others, but if they disobey Jesus' command they will perish. Just like Augustine_was_Calvinist, you put people between a rock and a hard place. In Jn 3:36 he that believes on the Son has everlasting life, he that disobeys by not believing the Son shall not see life. So those that wish to be saved will humbly believe and you will make fun of them and say they are superior, but if they disobey the Lord and do not believe they shall not be saved.

jmacvols,

I thank you for comparing me to someone like Augustine_was_Calvinst. I very much enjoy reading his posts.

you write:

"Belief" is an obedient work God gave man to do, Jn 6:29

As all Pelagians have done, and will continue to do, you have misread what the verse actually teaches. Us beliving in Christ is a work that God does in us.

it is not an obedient work man thought up himself to do to earn/merit his salvation.

Your writing here is very unclear.

Now if one wishes to be saved and he humbly follows Jesus' command to repent, you will make fun of them and say they are superior to others

No, I make fun of no one. You misread posts like you misread the holy scriptures. I have pointed out, and will continue to point out, that your false doctrine of works sets you up as being superior, because not only must you do those works, you must be wise enough to know to do them in the first place. That sets you up as being better than someone else who might not have your genious to know a good deal when they see one. You bring the false principle of evolution into the scheme of things: you must be smater and stronger than the norm of humanity.

Just like Just like Augustine_was_Calvinist, you put people between a rock and a hard place., you put people between a rock and a hard place.

No. That would be God. If you knew the scriptures you would know that you are a totally dead sinner, incapable of doing the first thing about sin, incapable of even believing in Christ. All those who do believe are saved solely because of God's grace, that He is compassionate, that He does have mercy on those whom He desires to have mercy. The choice is His. It is not I nor
Augustine_was_Calvinist who put you between a rock and a hard place -- it is God who does that.

You misuse John 3:36 just as you misuse all other scripture. It is not in agreement with your theology of works-righteousness.

 

[jmacvols]

Actually God has told us the purpose/reason of why He saves.
Eph. 1:6, it is to the praise of the glory of His grace, and Eph. 2:7, That( for this reason) in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

So what is the reason some will be saved and others lost? His grace? Why is His grace extended to some and not others?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I agree that God's choices are not random. If His choices are not random, then that means there has to be a purpose/reason behind them, but you suggest that we cannot understand God enough to know the purpose/reason? The bible gives more than ample information to understand that the purpose/reason one is saved and another not is related to obedience or lack of to God's will. If one does not believe that obedience is necessary for salvation, then God's purpose/reason has to remain a mystery. Can one know if he will be saved or not?

You are not getting it. Obdience is not a condition FOR salvation, it is the result OF salvation.

God is not required to enlighten us on why He chooses.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

So what is the reason some will be saved and others lost? His grace? Why is His grace extended to some and not others?

God just isn't fair is He?

Why did God hide the truth from some and not others?

Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

So what is the reason some will be saved and others lost? His grace? Why is His grace extended to some and not others?

He's already given you the reason in Scripture.

Read it.

 

[jmacvols]

jmacvols,

I thank you for comparing me to someone like Augustine_was_Calvinst. I very much enjoy reading his posts.

You're welcome! I am glad you agree with me that Augustine_Was_Calvnist and yourself have a comparative misunderstanding of works.

As all Pelagians have done, and will continue to do, you have misread what the verse actually teaches. Us beliving in Christ is a work that God does in us.

Jn 6:29 shows that God is the genitive of the work of belief and He has given the work of belief to man to do. This is the work of God, that YOU believe. God does not believe for you nor will He tie your shoes for you, chew your food for you; there are somethings you have to do for yourself. In Rev 2:26 the Lord says the ones that overcome and win the victory are the ones who keepeth His works to the end. Was the Lord mistaken in that man does not keep the works, but it is God that keeps the works? Jn 3:16 says "whosoever believeth". IF believing is a work that God does in us, then God choses randomly--whosoever--as to whom He will work belief in?

Your writing here is very unclear.

Did the idea for man "to believe", such as in Jn 3:16, come from God or man?

If it came from God and one believes, then one is doing an obedient work of God.
If it came from man, man is doing something to try and merit his own salvation.

No, I make fun of no one. You misread posts like you misread the holy scriptures.

So I misread your post where you say those that are humbly obedient to God's will are 'superior to others'? Was Abraham, the friend of God, superior to others? Was Noah superior to others?

I have pointed out, and will continue to point out, that your false doctrine of works sets you up as being superior, because not only must you do those works, you must be wise enough to know to do them in the first place. That sets you up as being better than someone else who might not have your genious to know a good deal when they see one. You bring the false principle of evolution into the scheme of things: you must be smater and stronger than the norm of humanity.

Your msunderstanding of works is what leads you to think one is 'superior' over another. You say "..not only must you do those works..."--those works are commanded, that is why they must be done, that's simple enough. One shows love for Jesus by obeying those commandments, Jn 14:15. You then say "..you must be wise enough to know to do them in the first place." In Mk 16:16 Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. It doesn't take a genius to figure out, 'hey, if I want to be saved I need to believe and be baptized'. Earlier you said that believing is a work God does in us. Does God also do our thinking for us too? Has mankind gotten so lazy that he can't do anything for himself anymore?

No. That would be God. If you knew the scriptures you would know that you are a totally dead sinner, incapable of doing the first thing about sin, incapable of even believing in Christ. All those who do believe are saved solely because of God's grace, that He is compassionate, that He does have mercy on those whom He desires to have mercy. The choice is His. It is not I nor
Augustine_was_Calvinist who put you between a rock and a hard place -- it is God who does that.

So let's just put the blame on God and not your theology for putting man between a rock and a hard place. Seems Calvinist just want to blame God for everything.
You say "..you are a totally dead sinner, incapable of doing the first thing about sin, incapable of even believing in Christ." I have never read such a thing in scriptures, as a matter of fact, just the opposite is found in scripture. It makes no sense for God to command man to believe while knowing man does not have that capability. You say "All those who do believe are saved solely becasue of God's grace." So those lost are lost because God would not extend His grace to them. Again, let's blame God for those that are lost.

You misuse John 3:36 just as you misuse all other scripture. It is not in agreement with your theology of works-righteousness.

Misuse in what way? It says those that believe shall see eternal life, that that disobey and do not believe shall not see life. If one believes in order to see life, you will say they are superior, but if they do not believe they will be lost. What a predicament? But you have said God puts man between this rock and a hard place--let's blame God.

 

[JustinWindsor]

...using different illustrations in order to ensure that we do not miss the point;

Romans 9:11 "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,"

Romans 9:15 "For He says to Moses, "I [size=-2]WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM[/size] I [size=-2]HAVE MERCY[/size], [size=-2]AND[/size] I [size=-2]WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM[/size] I [size=-2]HAVE COMPASSION[/size]."

Paul's conclusion from his own explanation is most telling;

Romans 9:16 "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy"

Romans 9:17 "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires"

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "T[size=-2]HOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF[/size] I[size=-2]SRAEL BE[/size] [size=-2]LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA[/size], [size=-2]IT IS[/size] [size=-2]THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED[/size];"

Romans 9:32 "Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,"

Not by works, but by faith alone. It cannot be earned in any way because it is in every way a gift.

 

[jmacvols]

You are not getting it. Obdience is not a condition FOR salvation, it is the result OF salvation.

God is not required to enlighten us on why He chooses.

Mk 16:16 Jesus put belief and baptism BEFORE salvation, so it is obvoius obedience comes before salvation. God would not leave us in the dark when it comes to slavation.

 

[jmacvols]

God just isn't fair is He?

Not if He extends His grace to some and withhold it from others for no apparent reason.
If you filed a lawsuit against someone that plainly wronged you, and on the day the hearing was held, the judge flipped a coin-- heads you win your case, tails the case is dismissed--would you be pleased if it came up tails? Would you feel justice has been rendered on the flip of a coin? Would it be 'fair'?

Why did God hide the truth from some and not others?

Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

Saying things like God hides the truth from some or God works in mysterious ways does not answer the question, it is more along the lines of avoiding it.

 

[JustinWindsor]

Mk 16:16 Jesus put belief and baptism BEFORE salvation, so it is obvoius obedience comes before salvation. God would not leave us in the dark when it comes to slavation.

Mark 16:

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

What He said is true. Whoever believes, will be saved from damnation on judgment day. Whoever does not believe will be condemned by their deeds.

These two verses, whether you read them in context or not, do not prove that salvation is not a result of free grace.

 

[jmacvols]

Hello JustinWindsor

...using different illustrations in order to ensure that we do not miss the point;

Romans 9:11 "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,"

Does this mean that people like Hitler or Stalin can be part of the "elect"? Before they were born, they had done neither good or evil and God based His election not on any works they would do?

"For He says to Moses, "I [size=-2]WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM[/size] I [size=-2]HAVE MERCY[/size], [size=-2]AND[/size] I [size=-2]WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM[/size] I [size=-2]HAVE COMPASSION[/size]."

[/b]

Why did God have mercy on Noah & his family and no one else?

Romans 9:16 "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy"

Romans 9:17 "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires"

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "T[size=-2]HOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF[/size] I[size=-2]SRAEL BE[/size] [size=-2]LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA[/size], [size=-2]IT IS[/size] [size=-2]THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED[/size];"

Romans 9:32 "Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,"

Not by works, but by faith alone. It cannot be earned in any way because it is in every way a gift.

Why only a remnant of Israel saved, why was not all Israel saved? Hebrews 11 show that those OT characters had 'faith alone"? None were ever obedient?

 

[nobdysfool]

Not if He extends His grace to some and withhold it from others for no apparent reason.
If you filed a lawsuit against someone that plainly wronged you, and on the day the hearing was held, the judge flipped a coin-- heads you win your case, tails the case is dismissed--would you be pleased if it came up tails? Would you feel justice has been rendered on the flip of a coin? Would it be 'fair'?
Saying things like God hides the truth from some or God works in mysterious ways does not answer the question, it is more along the lines of avoiding it.

Can't deal with the plain truth of scriptures?

God is not beholden to man's concept of fairness, because man's concept springs from a biased and unscriptural view of the world and of his own sinfulness.

We are not sinful because we sin, we sin because we're sinful. Another way to put it, we are not evil because we do evil deeds, we do evil deeds because we are evil. Only God can alter that fact. Man is completely unable to do one thing to change it. Any doctrine which teaches that man has the ability to choose whether to be a sinner or a saint of his own free will and his own motivation is a false doctrine.

 

[nobdysfool]

Hello JustinWindsor

Does this mean that people like Hitler or Stalin can be part of the "elect"? Before they were born, they had done neither good or evil and God based His election not on any works they would do?

What would make you think that Hitler or Stalin were part of the Elect? If they had been, God would have brought them to saving faith while they were still living, and they would not have done all the atrocities that they did. Election is unto certain salvation, not a license to do whatever you want.

Whatever you think you know about Calvinism needs some serious adjustment!

Why did God have mercy on Noah & his family and no one else?

Because it was right according to God that it be so. God chose to bless Noah, and his family, and Noah believed God, and was declared righteous by God by faith.

Why only a remnant of Israel saved, why was not all Israel saved? Hebrews 11 show that those OT characters had 'faith alone"? None were ever obedient?

You have a choice here: Believe that the Word is correct when it says and clearly shows that not all will be saved, and why, or deny the Word, and go the rest of the way into Universal Salvation.

 

[jmacvols]

Mark 16:

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
What He said is true. Whoever believes, will be saved from damnation on judgment day. Whoever does not believe will be condemned by their deeds.

Small detail you left out here. Jesus said he that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED. The conjunction "and" ties the two together so if 'belief' is necessary so is 'baptism'. "AND" keeps you from separating the two.

These two verses, whether you read them in context or not, do not prove that salvation is not a result of free grace.

They show that salvation is dependant upon whether or not man chooses to obey Christ's command to believe and be baptized.

 

[JustinWindsor]

Not if He extends His grace to some and withhold it from others for no apparent reason.
If you filed a lawsuit against someone that plainly wronged you, and on the day the hearing was held, the judge flipped a coin-- heads you win your case, tails the case is dismissed--would you be pleased if it came up tails? Would you feel justice has been rendered on the flip of a coin? Would it be 'fair'?...QUOTE]

There you go trying to rationalize who God is by your own worldly standards and definitions.

God is Just (by His definitions as revealed in Scripture alone)
God promises Wrath (by His definitions as revealed in Scripture alone)
God is Love (by His definitions as revealed in Scripture alone)

You can do a word search on these and other words in the Bible at studybibleforum.com if you wish. But what you will not find, ever, anywhere, is God, in Scripture calling Himself FAIR.

He answers to no one, least of all His creatures. He does not have to prove anything to anyone. He has told you all you need to know about Him in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. Human nature is to question God's Scripture. The Born Again from Above nature is to accept it.