Absolutely Free or Not?

[mlqurgw]

Where?

Where does it say that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us? Your claim seems to be that the righteousness of Christ's life is imputed to us. I don't see it.

Just from 2Cor. 5:21 it is clear that our righteousness is not of ourselves. To miss it is to be completely blind. That isn't even considering the others. In the same way He was made to be sin we are made righteous, by imputation. Nothing else could be understood from the passage. I am truly amazed at the blindness you exhibit, or is it just rebellion?

 

[Outrider]

Where?

Where does it say that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us? Your claim seems to be that the righteousness of Christ's life is imputed to us. I don't see it.

Let's apply the second dose of the eye salve---

The Imputation:

Romans 5:18-19 (ESV)
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. [19] For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.


The Result:


Galatians 2:20 (ESV)
It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Romans 5:10 (ESV)
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
2 Cor. 4:10-11 (ESV)
always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. [11] For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

 

[jmacvols]

Paul is talking to those who profess faith
Scripture teaches clearly that the natural man can read and hear all there is to be read and heard and will not understand because they are spiritually discerned.
So then, what they read is not one of the "things of the Spirit of God."

Gee, I'm glad you are here to correct Scripture. I don't know how God has made it this long without you here to correct His Word.

Have I not already said there were inspired men that received revelations about God from the Holy Spirit and they wrote them down so uninspired men can understand them? Philip taught the eunuch, why did not the Holy Spirit give the eunuch instant understanding? And why is there so much conflict among those that declare they have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit? Is the HS the author of confusion?

 

[jmacvols]

I hope that isn't the best answer you can give. I am truly disappointed.

It was a question, not an answer.

 

[holdon]

Just from 2Cor. 5:21 it is clear that our righteousness is not of ourselves. To miss it is to be completely blind. That isn't even considering the others. In the same way He was made to be sin we are made righteous, by imputation. Nothing else could be understood from the passage. I am truly amazed at the blindness you exhibit, or is it just rebellion?

No, it is not rebellion. Just being precise. Scripture says nowhere and never that the righteousness of Christ's life is imputed to us. It is probably a vestige of RC teaching.

Re. 2 Cor 5:21 talks about us becoming God's righteousness. Not Christ's, not imputation.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Christ was greatful God had chosen those particular men to be apostles instead of those that were arrogant, intellectual 'snobs' and prideful.

Now that is laughable and displays an utter misunderstanding of the condition of the apostles before and after Christ chose them.

Anyone who says that Peter, James and John were not arrogant and prideful has a terrible lack of understanding of the Scriptures.

Belief alone does not remit sins, no one after the church began in Acts 2 was told to "believe only" to be saved. The devils believe, do they feel better?

You make the mistake of not discerning the difference between the genuine faith that is a gift of God and a mere profession of the lips of faith that James speaks about being dead.

The order of the verse is that baptize comes BEFORE the washing away of sins.

And there are lots and lots of verse that do not say a thing about baptism being a condition for salvation.

For a group that is so anti-catholic as the COC, you sure do hold to a lot of the same perverted doctrines as the RCC does.

So God does want most to be lost. How does God chose those whom He will leave in rebellion?

God is not obligated to reveal all the details to you.

Sorry, but your pay grade don't warrant it.




[/QUOTE]

 

[jmacvols]

One more time, 1 Corinthians 2 is plain as the sun in the sky, that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

So, you want us to believe that Scripture contradicts itself?

Apparently you do.

So there was no such thing as inspired men that received revelations about God from the HS?

In your mind, due to a terrible misunderstanding of the Scriptures, trying to twist them to conform to your philosophical liking, the natural man, whom Scripture says cannot understand the things of the Spirit, does indeed understand the revelation of the Spirit.

I am capable of reading and understanding the scriptures, and I can show you many others with the same capability.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Have I not already said there were inspired men that received revelations about God from the Holy Spirit and they wrote them down so uninspired men can understand them?

You are are avoiding the question.

Is the Gospel spiritual?

Is the Gospel spiritually discerned?

Is the Gospel a "thing of God"?

Yes or no?

Philip taught the eunuch, why did not the Holy Spirit give the eunuch instant understanding?

Because God uses spiritually discerning regenerated saints to reach others of the Elect.

And why is there so much conflict among those that declare they have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit? Is the HS the author of confusion?

I've already told you. Some make false claims, and deceive themselves, just as I've explained that we have well explained your contradictions.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I'll have to pick this up again later.

 

[mlqurgw]

No, it is not rebellion. Just being precise. Scripture says nowhere and never that the righteousness of Christ's life is imputed to us. It is probably a vestige of RC teaching.

Re. 2 Cor 5:21 talks about us becoming God's righteousness. Not Christ's, not imputation.

I tell you what, you stand before God in your own righteousnes and I will stand before Him in the robe of Christ's righteousness and we will see who is accepted.

 

[Outrider]

I sense that the Arminians in this discussion are trying to win a cheap victory through stubborn attrition. Either that or they are truly blind to the righteousness of Christ. My suggestion tot he Arminians is that they study all of the implications of Christ's obedience, why did Jesus live in perfect obedience for 33 years before he went to cross to do that thing we're more interested in than all of that perfect life, righteous living, obeying the law of God stuff. What was the purpose of all that righteousness.

Anticipated answer: To make Jesus the sacrifice without blemish.

Anticipated answer: So, why wasn't he crucified when he was a year old?

 

[jmacvols]

No, what Scripture makes clear is that obedience follows salvation, and is not the cause of salvation.

Did not Christ put belief and baptism BEFORE salvation in Mk 16:16? Did Not Peter put repentance and baptism BEFORE remission of sins? Yes on both counts.

You just don't get it. If obedience is the cause of salvation, then there was no need for Christ to suffer and die, all you would have to do is be obedient to God's commands, which is contradictory to everything Scripture teaches about salvation.

If Christ had not died, then obedience would mean and do nothing. Does the simple fact that Christ suffered and died mean all will be saved? No. So there has to be something that separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep hear and follow (obey) whereas the goats do not.

Your answer of obedience is anti-Biblical, anti-Christ and anti-Christian and is anti-Gospel, making your obedience the cause of salvation based on what you do, and a debt that God owes you for your goodness.

God, not me, made obedience necessary for salvation, Heb 5:9.

Sorry, but your goodness is as a filthy rag in the eyes of God.

Isa 64:6 one of the most abused and misused verses. Verse 7 shows Isaiah is speaking of those that have turned their back on God, that quit following His commands and were in iniquity.

Please refrain from misrepresenting me again.

What I have said, as every other Calvinist has said, in agreement with Scripture, is that man can do nothing to effect his own regeneration and salvation, they are purely and soley the work of God by His Grace and Mercy.

So you say here man can do nothing about his own salvation (see Acts 2:40.)

After one is regenerated, saved, then he cooperates, believes and does good works as a result of regeneration, salvation.(Ephesians 2:8-10)

So here you say man does works because of his salvation. Are these good works necessary for salvation? will one be lost for not doing these good works?

No flip flopping on our part, but lots on your part. First you say God is no respector of persons then you demonstrate that God is in choosing the apostles and not others.

What did Peter say in Acts 10:34,35? God is not a respecter of person, those that obey God are accepted with Him. Peter shows that everyone that is saved will be saved for the same reason--obedience. God will not have respect for some and save them for reasons other than obedience, everyone that will be saved will be saved alike and for the same reason. This is not showing respect of person.

What I want you to do is to read very slowly, very carefully.

We agree with Scripture that man cannot do anything in his natural state to effect regeneration and salvation, just as Paul clearly states in 1 Cor. 2, he cannot understand the Gospel and finds it foolishness. First he must be effectually moved from the natural state to the spiritual state by the Holy Spirit, what Jesus called, "being born from above".

In the spiritual state of being born from above, the new man can then obey the command to repent and believe, not before, for before, while in the natural state,


14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul told the Ephesians that when they read they could understand his knowledge in the mystery of Christ. What did Paul mean here?

Again, there are many who say they have been "moved to the spiritual state by the Holy Spirit", yet they disagree with each other, why is this?

 

[holdon]

the righteousness of Christ.

Where do you find the this expression in Scripture?

 

[nobdysfool]

I guess you can't prove it either..... Or just answer the question.

The answer was given to you, several times. What Bible are you reading?

Now, what about the Trinity? There is no verse which states God is a Trinity, a Triune Being. Do you believe He is?

 

[nobdysfool]

No, it is not rebellion. Just being precise. Scripture says nowhere and never that the righteousness of Christ's life is imputed to us. It is probably a vestige of RC teaching.

Nope. Catholics teach "infusion" of Christ's Righteousness. You don't know doctrinal history very well, and that somehow doesn't surprise me. My guess is that you're CoC as well. You sound like one. The CoC is involved in some clear heresy, if your posts and jmacvols' posts are any indication of the current state of doctrinal teaching in the CoC.

Re. 2 Cor 5:21 talks about us becoming God's righteousness. Not Christ's, not imputation.

(2Co 5:21) Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Christ was not literally sin, He was made a sin-offering. We are united with Christ in spirit, so that where He is, we are, and what He experienced, was as if we also experienced it. The righteousness we have is Christ's, by virtue of our union with Him. It is therefore imputed to us, which is a legal declaration that we are righteous, based on Christ's work on our behalf.

Since Chrsit is God, The term "Righteousness of God" is Christ's Righteousness, and we are in Christ, so God's righteousness is what we are clothed in, not our own.

You have no understanding of the legal underpinnings of the death and resurrection of Christ, that is obvious.

 

[holdon]

The answer was given to you, several times. What Bible are you reading?

No, I did not get an answer with Scriptural proof that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

Now, what about the Trinity? There is no verse which states God is a Trinity, a Triune Being. Do you believe He is?

Purgatory is not in the Bible either. Do you believe in purgatory?

 

[holdon]

(2Co 5:21) Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Christ was not literally sin, He was made a sin-offering. We are united with Christ in spirit, so that where He is, we are, and what He experienced, was as if we also experienced it. The righteousness we have is Christ's, by virtue of our union with Him. It is therefore imputed to us, which is a legal declaration that we are righteous, based on Christ's work on our behalf.

Please provide Scriptural proof for this legal declaration of righteousness.

Since Chrsit is God, The term "Righteousness of God" is Christ's Righteousness, and we are in Christ, so God's righteousness is what we are clothed in, not our own.

Ah, of course you would come up with that. Because you cannot find "Christ's righteousness" anywhere in Scripture. So, much for bedrock doctrine...

You have no understanding of the legal underpinnings of the death and resurrection of Christ, that is obvious.

Do you? Please explain.

 

[nobdysfool]

No, I did not get an answer with Scriptural proof that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

If you're looking for the word "imputed" you won't find it. Nonetheless, what the scriptures teach is that Christ's Righteousness is legally credited to us, because of what He did on our behalf. He took our place to receive the judgment for our sins, and in return God counts us righteous. It is not our own righteousness, it is the righteousness of Christ, by our spiritual union with Him. Basic Redemption 101.

Purgatory is not in the Bible either. Do you believe in purgatory?

Purgatory is unscriptural, so your question is meaningless. Quit dancing around and answer my question.

Do you believe in the Trinity?

 

[nobdysfool]

Please provide Scriptural proof for this legal declaration of righteousness.

I just did. Do you understand the english language?

Ah, of course you would come up with that. Because you cannot find "Christ's righteousness" anywhere in Scripture.

Are you saying Christ isn't Righteous? Do you agree that God is righteous? Do you agree that Christ is God? Doesn't it therefore follow that Christ is Righteous?

So, much for bedrock doctrine...

Oh, please! You have demonstrated that you have zero knowledge of basic Chrsitian doctrine!

Do you? Please explain.

I have been. You haven't understood a thing that has been said to you. Not only that, you seem to have only one goal: To be disruptive, argumentative, and obtuse. Does your church teach you to be that way with Calvinists?

 

[mlqurgw]

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. ( imputation)

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom 4:7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom 4:9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith( or faithfulness) of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith(Faithfulness) of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.







A little lesson in basic Bible doctrine. Justification requires more than just having your guilt removed. To be justified you must have kept the Law perfectly from the time you were born. Any who claim a righteousnes other than the imputed righteousness of Chist know nothing of righteousness.