Absolutely Free or Not?

jmacvols said;God has revealed enough details to show that man has a part in his own salvation.

mlqurgw said:

At least you are honest about the conclusion of your theology. The problem is that if man has a part then he is damned. There is only one thing which we can claim to be our own, our sin. All we can add to the work of Christ is sin. Would you add your sin to what Christ had done? Honestly, if what you say is correct then God must be the most frustrated and miserable being in there is. Such a statement robs Him of His Godhood.

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Thanks, that's another error that the CoC shares with the RCC, one I forgot.

It can be added to the long list.

Actually, add a bit of Mariology and the CoC could be a substitute for the RCC.

jmacvols said:

Did not Christ put belief and baptism BEFORE salvation in Mk 16:16? Did Not Peter put repentance and baptism BEFORE remission of sins? Yes on both counts.

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You greatly err in not knowing the Scriptures and relying on a false formula that a heretical sect has fed you based on a couple of snippets and not taking the entirety of Scripture into account.

Your false formula bases salvation on being baptized as a neccessity.
Which means that a professor can not be indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Here is where your formula fails;

Acts 10;

36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they[e] killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles


44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.


The formula taught you by the CoC is a legalistic formula, just as everything you have stated here as doctrine is nothing but legalism no different from the legalism of the Pharisees.

2 Corinthians 1:21-23

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1;
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


Those believers had been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, as a seal of salvation, before they had even been offered water baptism.

The CoC lied to you and teaches false doctrine.

Outrider said:

The problem with the "in Christ" theology

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It's biblical, Gal 3:27

Outrider said:

is that the sinner may be surrounded with the righteous Christ, but, being a sinner, he has brought his unrighteousness into Christ, making Christ unrighteous and thereby having no righteousness to be surrounded in, which puts him back to square one...except that now he has an unrighteous and impotent Christ to deal with.

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As Peter pointed out in Acts 2:38 when one repents and is baptized his sins are remitted. So ones sins are remitted before they can be in Christ and therefore no unrighteousness enters Christ.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:

Paul is talking to those who profess faith
Scripture teaches clearly that the natural man can read and hear all there is to be read and heard and will not understand because they are spiritually discerned.
So then, what they read is not one of the "things of the Spirit of God."

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Anyone who has a desire to understand the bible can, it does not take intervening by the HS to give understanding. Much of the "religious world" claims to have been "taught" by the HS and we see what a confusing mess that is. Why did Paul warn the Ephesians be not unwise but understand what the will of the Lord is? How could they ever be unwise if they were "illuminated" by the HS, their knowledge be as infallible as the Holy Spirit's.

Augustine_Was_calvinist said:

What you are doing is sidestepping the issue laid before you in 1 Corinthians 2 that tears apart your presupposition, with a canned response.

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I have answered it 3 or 4 times. You simply do not like the answer I gave.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:

Both of those have been answered. Please do not be redundant and refuse to acknowledge they have been answered, it's not intellectually honest.

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You never explain why a man instructed the eunuch. Why did Philip need to go a ways to find the eunuch and teach him, when the HS could have instantly "illuminated" him? The eunuch was taught by a man.
You never explained the confusion among those "taught" by the HS other than saying some are false teachers. I am sure the ones you refer to as "false teachers" are those that don't agree with you. No doubt they look at you as a false teacher. So those that believe they have been "taught" by the HS 1) do not agree with each other and 2) call each other false teachers.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:

One more time, 1 Corinthians 2 is plain as the sun in the sky, that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

So, you want us to believe that Scripture contradicts itself?

Apparently you do.
Again, you are sidestepping the issue that 1 Corinthians 2 presents with a canned response.

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No, you did not answer my question, so I'll ask again: were there inspired men, like Paul, that were able to receive & understand revelations from the Holy Spirit about God? Did they write these revelations down? Do we have these revelations today? Can we today, like the Ephesians, understand Paul's mystery in Christ when we read it? Yes on all counts. Were the Galatians "illuminated" by the Holy Spirit? They were taught the gospel by Paul, Gal 1:11,12, yet they left that gospel, Gal 1:6. How could they leave the true gospel if they were "taught" by the Holy Spirit and teach 'another' gospel? Their knowledge would be infallible having been taught by the HS.

jmacvols said:

Anyone who has a desire to understand the bible can, it does not take intervening by the HS to give understanding.

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Well, it is clear that you absolutely contradict and deny the clear meaning in 1 Corinthians 2, which is why you avoid the simple questions I've proposed to you.

Desire by the natural man is for sin.(John 3:18)

1 Corinthians 2 says the direct opposite of your gross error.

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.


You regurgitate the heresy and lies taught to you by the CoC, and deny the Truth of God's Word, that plainly says the Gospel is revealed by the Holy Spirit who is active within so they can understand and know the things of the Spirit of God.


13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



You have been lied to and deceived.

jmacvols said:

I have answered it 3 or 4 times. You simply do not like the answer I gave.

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No you haven't. I've asked you simple, yes or no questions and you have deflected every single time.

You have been lied to and deceived by the CoC.

jmacvols said:

You never explain why a man instructed the eunuch. Why did Philip need to go a ways to find the eunuch and teach him, when the HS could have instantly "illuminated" him? The eunuch was taught by a man.
You never explained the confusion among those "taught" by the HS other than saying some are false teachers. I am sure the ones you refer to as "false teachers" are those that don't agree with you. No doubt they look at you as a false teacher. So those that believe they have been "taught" by the HS 1) do not agree with each other and 2) call each other false teachers.

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Dealt with already.

Answer the yes/no questions, with a simple yes or no instead of giving us the shake and bake.

Here is the CoC false, legalistic formula shot all to hell;


Acts 10;

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.


And they are New Testament believers, after the Resurrection of Christ, so the lame excuse of them being under the OT does not hold water, which it doesn't hold water concerning the thief on the Cross either, but here we have believers who have the "gift of the Holy Spirit" BEFORE they have ever come close to water baptism.

So much for the CoC legalistic formula.

jmacvols,

You have been deceived by a legalistic sect. I will pray that God open your eyes and heart to the Truth and come out of the darkness that is spread by that sect that puts people in the bondage of legalism. vbmenu_register("postmenu_19344811", true);

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:

Like all who pervert the Scriptures, you read a formula into those passages, in the great majority of passages pertaining to salvation, the one thing that is absolutely neccessary is to "believe". Those who believe, will be baptized.

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Christ put the "formula" there, not me. Belief AND be baptized shall be saved. It is simplistic, straight-forward and undeniable.

Augustine_was_Calvinist said:

Oh no, once again you show a terrible misunderstanding of the Scriptures.

If you can obey, which means you have to obey faultlessly, perfectly, then you can win eternal life.

But you cannot do that, nor do you realize the gravity and depth of your sin and to the extent that your sin is offensive to God.

Just ONE sin makes you guilty of all sin. One single sin is infinitely sinful to an Infinitely Holy God.

So, every time you do not obey perfectly, you are then infinitely sinful in the eyes of the Infinitely Holy God, and wipes out all those things you have done that you think secures your salvation.

Christ's death, purchased the infinitely sinful from their state, with His Infinite Righteousness, that covers all disobedience.

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Where does the bible say God thinks his children will be perfectly faultless? In Lk 13:3,5 Jesus gave the avenue of repentance when one falters from time to time. Repent or perish. In Acts 8:13 Simon believed and was baptized (see Mk 16:16). He then sinned by trying to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. Peter tells Simon, v22, to repent and pray to God that his sin be forgiven. If one refuses to repent, they will perish.

Augustine_Was_Calvnist said:

Now you are getting closer. The sheep that have been given to Christ by the Father do hear and they do follow, because they have been given a new heart with which to do so, but their obdience is not the cause of salvation but the result of salvation.

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Does God randomly pick ones to give to Christ? They hear and follow (obey) is why they are given to Jesus. If they stop hearing and following, they are no longer His sheep. No where in this context does it say God makes them hear and follow, they choose to do that themselves.

Augustin_was_calvinst said:

Once again your misunderstanding of the Scriptures shines out like a supernova, for Isaiah is addressing the wickedness of "all the nations", and is describing the state of all humanity, just as Paul does in Romans 2 quoting the Psalmists and Prophets.

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No. First note that John wrote "I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth." Here is obedience and it is not counted as 'filthy rags', but joy.

For my times sake:

http://www.nkcofc.com/Tracts/Filthy%20Rags.htm

mlqurgw said:

Not at all. Since you don't seem to be able to understand basic things let me explain. No one is justified by their own works righteousness. To be justified you must have kept the law perfectly. Neither you nor I have ever been able to do this. To be justified we must have the perfect righteousness of another counted as our own ( imputed). Read Psalm 24. Christ is Jehovah-tsidkenu, the LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

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Yes the righteousness is of the Lord. But the question is: "where is it stated that Christ's righteousness, the righteousness of His life here on earth, is imputed to us?"

And I note that you are still contradicting Romans 3:20, because you say: "To be justified you must have kept the law perfectly."
Whereas Romans 3:20 says: "by works of law no flesh shall be justified before him". No flesh shall be justified by works of law, even were they perfect.

Outrider said:

The problem with the "in Christ" theology is that the sinner may be surrounded with the righteous Christ, but, being a sinner, he has brought his unrighteousness into Christ, making Christ unrighteous and thereby having no righteousness to be surrounded in, which puts him back to square one...except that now he has an unrighteous and impotent Christ to deal with.

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No sinner brings unrighteousness into Christ thereby making Christ unrighteous. In Christ we are a new creation....

mlqurgw said:

At least you are honest about the conclusion of your theology. The problem is that if man has a part then he is damned.

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When those on Pentecost asked Peter what shall we do, Peter replied, "Nothing! Else you're damned!"

mlqurgw said:

There is only one thing which we can claim to be our own, our sin. All we can add to the work of Christ is sin. Would you add your sin to what Christ had done? Honestly, if what you say is correct then God must be the most frustrated and miserable being in there is. Such a statement robs Him of His Godhood.

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Obedience adds nothing, it is part of.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:

No, actually, your heretical sect is in allignment with the Roman church on a great many erroneous doctrines. Here are a few:

1)Baptismal regeneration

2)Works complete salvation

3)Salvation can be lost

4)Denial of imputed righteousness

5)Baptism neccessary for salvation

6)both are big on formulas

7)denial of the sufficiency of the Cross to purchase salvation for the Elect

Just to name a few.

As I said, for a sect that is as anti-catholic as the CoC is, you sure do share a lot of the same errors.

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Why try to align me with Catholicism? I told you I disagree with them as I do with Calvinism? Catholics idea of baptism is different from what I believe. Example, they baptized infants, which I do not believe in.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:

You are are avoiding the question.

Is the Gospel spiritual?

Is the Gospel spiritually discerned?

Is the Gospel a "thing of God"?

Yes or no?

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What do YOU mean by 'spiritual', by 'spiritually discern', and 'thing'?

Do we have the gospel in a written form?
If one has reading skills, can they read it?
Can they understand it like the Ephesians?

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:

1 Corinthians 2 says that "uninspired men like you" cannot understand without the Spirit being present within them, and find it foolishness.

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Yet Paul and other men were not uninspired like me, they were able to discern the revelations of the Holy Spirit about God. They then wrote them down for us uninspired folks so that we can understand.

Outrider said:

Let's see. That's like saying George W. Bush is the President because he'll be elected next year. I don't think you understand the meaning of the term "election" on even the most elementary level.

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No, you fail to understand that God elected a class of people-Christians, not any particular individuals.

Outrider said:

There was no choice even for the elect to make. The elect were unable to choose Christ in the first place.

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Anyone can choose to be a Christian-part of the elect. "whosoever"-Jn 3:16, Rev 22:17.

jmacvols said:

When those on Pentecost asked Peter what shall we do, Peter replied, "Nothing! Else you're damned!"

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Do I really need to explain the entire doctrine of salvation in and by Christ in every response I give on these boards? I will say this one more time. I willingly chose Christ because He first made me see my need of Him. He first gave me eyes and a heart to believe. I heard the Gospel preached all my life but was unregenerate and inwardly rebellious in every thought. Once He opened my eyes and gave me ears to hear I believed and was baptized. It was His work in me and for me that I neither could or would do for myself that made the difference. He conquered me by His Word and then comforted me by Christ. I received life passively and believed actively. Faith is simply relying on Christ for all. It is resting in Him not in ourselves. It is impossible for a man to give up his self-righteousness and do nothing but that is what faith is. Once we have faith then we do, realizing even then that all we do is mixed with sin. Now that I trust Christ alone I need not look to myself at all. That is where the peace that passes understanding comes from. Resting in Christ and not in my obedience. Looking to Him for all the blessings of God and all my acceptance with God. Christ is all.

Obedience adds nothing, it is part of.

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Is your obedience without sin?

holdon said:

No sinner brings unrighteousness into Christ thereby making Christ unrighteous. In Christ we are a new creation....

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So, where do we get righeousness from? And how?

jmacvols said:

No, you fail to understand that God elected a class of people-Christians, not any particular individuals.

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Which came first, the particular class of people or the election.

Anyone can choose to be a Christian-part of the elect. "whosoever"-Jn 3:16, Rev 22:17.

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Whosoever is not a universal pronoun. It deals with a particular class of people.

Outrider said:

So, where do we get righeousness from? And how?

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Romans 3:22 "righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ towards all, and upon all those who believe"

holdon said:

Romans 3:22 "righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ towards all, and upon all those who believe"

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So then God just declares you righteous without any actual righteousness being worked out?