Absolutely Free or Not?

[holdon]

A little lesson in basic Bible doctrine. Justification requires more than just having your guilt removed. To be justified you must have kept the Law perfectly from the time you were born.

You're contradicting Romans 3:20 "by works of law no flesh shall be justified before him"

 

[holdon]

Are you saying Christ isn't Righteous? Do you agree that God is righteous? Do you agree that Christ is God? Doesn't it therefore follow that Christ is Righteous?

Of course Christ is righteous.

 

[nobdysfool]

Of course Christ is righteous.

So why did you question it?

You were just shown scripture that indicates imputation of Christ's Righteousness to us when we believe on Him. You have done nothing but split hairs, throw objections around, and act like a 3 year old with regard to basic biblical doctrine.

Now, for the third time, Do you believe in the Trinity?

 

[holdon]

So why did you question it?

No, I did not.

You were just shown scripture that indicates imputation of Christ's Righteousness to us when we believe on Him. You have done nothing but split hairs, throw objections around, and act like a 3 year old with regard to basic biblical doctrine.

You have not shown anything to the effect the Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. If you don't have answers, don't respond.

Now, for the third time, Do you believe in the Trinity?

Yes.

 

[mlqurgw]

You're contradicting Romans 3:20 "by works of law no flesh shall be justified before him"

Not at all. Since you don't seem to be able to understand basic things let me explain. No one is justified by their own works righteousness. To be justified you must have kept the law perfectly. Neither you nor I have ever been able to do this. To be justified we must have the perfect righteousness of another counted as our own ( imputed). Read Psalm 24. Christ is Jehovah-tsidkenu, the LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

 

[Outrider]

A little thought for those who believe in Conditional Election to chew on.

The Bible plainly teaches predestination and the Arminians know this. The very word is used "for whom he did foreknow he did also predestine". So the Arminians have constructed this idea that God looks down through the corridors of history and sees those who will believe and repent and he has "predestined" that he will save them. The Arminians never explain why it is that some people are better than others and more responsive to the grace of God than those other stupid people who are obviously evil, while those who believe and repent are better and good. So right off, the Arminians have adopted works righteousness through the backdoor which is contradictory to Scripture.

What the Arminians don't reckon with is Sodom and Gommorah. God "looked down through the corridors of history", as it were, and saw that Sodom and Gommorah would believe and repent... then, at the appointed time, he destroyed the cities in fiery wrath.

So much for Conditional Election. There's nothing left but Unconditional Election.

 

[theend0218]

free gracer - the choice you give is bogus. On the one hand you say no provisions, etc., but then add three: grace, faith, and Jesus Christ. Grace must be provided; faith must be something one does; and I assume you mean Christ's life, death and resurrection (which entails a lot). By any definition, this entails provisions, even if most of them are supplied by God. However, the one "string attached" that must involve something one does is faith.

The other choice can be read in many ways. All echo statements made by Jesus or his followers. I also assume you believe that one who has faith in the first option must continue to believe, or must persevere.

The two options you list overlap in certain ways.

 

[jmacvols]

(2Co 5:21) Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

All of Gods righteousness done on earth was done by Christ--Christ's righteousness was perfect. If one wishes to participate in God's righteouness, then one must be "in Him", in Christ. Christ's righteousness is not imputed to man, so man has to be in Christ, salvation is in Christ, not outside of Christ. One is put into Christ by baptism, Gal 3:27.

 

[jmacvols]

Now that is laughable and displays an utter misunderstanding of the condition of the apostles before and after Christ chose them.

Anyone who says that Peter, James and John were not arrogant and prideful has a terrible lack of understanding of the Scriptures.

So your saying nothing was revealed to the apostles because they were 'arrogant and prideful'? Why then did Christ contrast "wise and prudent" to "babes"? What did Christ mean by wise and prudent? babes? What's the difference between the two?

You make the mistake of not discerning the difference between the genuine faith that is a gift of God and a mere profession of the lips of faith that James speaks about being dead.

Faith comes by hearing, Rom 10:17. The faith the devils have is dead becasue it is faith alone. The devils know and believe who Christ is, they just refuse to act on it, ie be obedeint to Christ. A 'true' faith is an obedeint faith, complete opposite to the devils.

And there are lots and lots of verse that do not say a thing about baptism being a condition for salvation.

It doesn't take but one verse. How many times does Christ have to command something before you choose to follow it? once? five times?

For a group that is so anti-catholic as the COC, you sure do hold to a lot of the same perverted doctrines as the RCC does.

I base my beliefs on what the bible teaches, not what various religious groups teach. I disagree with Catholicism and Calvinism equally.

God is not obligated to reveal all the details to you.

Sorry, but your pay grade don't warrant it.

God has revealed enough details to show that man has a part in his own salvation.

 

[jmacvols]

You are are avoiding the question.

Is the Gospel spiritual?

Is the Gospel spiritually discerned?

Is the Gospel a "thing of God"?

Yes or no?

I have answered it many times. There were inspired men who received and understood revelations about God from the HS, they wrote them down where uninspired men, like us, can understand. What more do you want?

I've already told you. Some make false claims, and deceive themselves, just as I've explained that we have well explained your contradictions.

But they all claim to be speaking the 'truth', that if anyone disagrees with what they think, they will accuse them of false teaching. They all claim to have been 'taught' by the Holy Spirit, they contradict each other, and they accuse each other of teaching falsely.

 

[jmacvols]

A little thought for those who believe in Conditional Election to chew on.

The Bible plainly teaches predestination and the Arminians know this. The very word is used "for whom he did foreknow he did also predestine". So the Arminians have constructed this idea that God looks down through the corridors of history and sees those who will believe and repent and he has "predestined" that he will save them. The Arminians never explain why it is that some people are better than others and more responsive to the grace of God than those other stupid people who are obviously evil, while those who believe and repent are better and good. So right off, the Arminians have adopted works righteousness through the backdoor which is contradictory to Scripture.

What the Arminians don't reckon with is Sodom and Gommorah. God "looked down through the corridors of history", as it were, and saw that Sodom and Gommorah would believe and repent... then, at the appointed time, he destroyed the cities in fiery wrath.

So much for Conditional Election. There's nothing left but Unconditional Election.

God did not predestinate particular individuals, He predestinated a class of people to be saved---Christians. One can choose to be a Christian or not, but if God predestinated particular individuals, there is no choice for the individual in his own salvation. If one is not part of the "elect", then he is lost and can do nothing about it.

 

[Outrider]

All of Gods righteousness done on earth was done by Christ--Christ's righteousness was perfect. If one wishes to participate in God's righteouness, then one must be "in Him", in Christ. Christ's righteousness is not imputed to man, so man has to be in Christ, salvation is in Christ, not outside of Christ. One is put into Christ by baptism, Gal 3:27.

The problem with the "in Christ" theology is that the sinner may be surrounded with the righteous Christ, but, being a sinner, he has brought his unrighteousness into Christ, making Christ unrighteous and thereby having no righteousness to be surrounded in, which puts him back to square one...except that now he has an unrighteous and impotent Christ to deal with.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Paul is talking to those who profess faith
Scripture teaches clearly that the natural man can read and hear all there is to be read and heard and will not understand because they are spiritually discerned.
So then, what they read is not one of the "things of the Spirit of God."

Have I not already said there were inspired men that received revelations about God from the Holy Spirit and they wrote them down so uninspired men can understand them?

What you are doing is sidestepping the issue laid before you in 1 Corinthians 2 that tears apart your presupposition, with a canned response.

Philip taught the eunuch, why did not the Holy Spirit give the eunuch instant understanding? And why is there so much conflict among those that declare they have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit? Is the HS the author of confusion?

Both of those have been answered. Please do not be redundant and refuse to acknowledge they have been answered, it's not intellectually honest.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

One more time, 1 Corinthians 2 is plain as the sun in the sky, that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

So, you want us to believe that Scripture contradicts itself?

Apparently you do.

So there was no such thing as inspired men that received revelations about God from the HS?

Again, you are sidestepping the issue that 1 Corinthians 2 presents with a canned response.

I am capable of reading and understanding the scriptures, and I can show you many others with the same capability.

Apparently not, for you make terrible errors.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I tell you what, you stand before God in your own righteousnes and I will stand before Him in the robe of Christ's righteousness and we will see who is accepted.

AMEN and AMEN!

 

[mlqurgw]

jmacvols said;God has revealed enough details to show that man has a part in his own salvation.

At least you are honest about the conclusion of your theology. The problem is that if man has a part then he is damned. There is only one thing which we can claim to be our own, our sin. All we can add to the work of Christ is sin. Would you add your sin to what Christ had done? Honestly, if what you say is correct then God must be the most frustrated and miserable being in there is. Such a statement robs Him of His Godhood.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Did not Christ put belief and baptism BEFORE salvation in Mk 16:16? Did Not Peter put repentance and baptism BEFORE remission of sins? Yes on both counts.

Like all who pervert the Scriptures, you read a formula into those passages, in the great majority of passages pertaining to salvation, the one thing that is absolutely neccessary is to "believe". Those who believe, will be baptized.

If Christ had not died, then obedience would mean and do nothing.

Oh no, once again you show a terrible misunderstanding of the Scriptures.

If you can obey, which means you have to obey faultlessly, perfectly, then you can win eternal life.

But you cannot do that, nor do you realize the gravity and depth of your sin and to the extent that your sin is offensive to God.

Just ONE sin makes you guilty of all sin. One single sin is infinitely sinful to an Infinitely Holy God.

So, every time you do not obey perfectly, you are then infinitely sinful in the eyes of the Infinitely Holy God, and wipes out all those things you have done that you think secures your salvation.

Christ's death, purchased the infinitely sinful from their state, with His Infinite Righteousness, that covers all disobedience.

Does the simple fact that Christ suffered and died mean all will be saved? No. So there has to be something that separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep hear and follow (obey) whereas the goats do not.

Now you are getting closer. The sheep that have been given to Christ by the Father do hear and they do follow, because they have been given a new heart with which to do so, but their obdience is not the cause of salvation but the result of salvation.

God, not me, made obedience necessary for salvation, Heb 5:9.

All those who have been given the Son by the Father do obey having been born from above with the capacity and desire to obey.

Isa 64:6 one of the most abused and misused verses. Verse 7 shows Isaiah is speaking of those that have turned their back on God, that quit following His commands and were in iniquity.

Once again your misunderstanding of the Scriptures shines out like a supernova, for Isaiah is addressing the wickedness of "all the nations", and is describing the state of all humanity, just as Paul does in Romans 2 quoting the Psalmists and Prophets.

So you say here man can do nothing about his own salvation (see Acts 2:40.)

No, the entirety of Scripture says so, not snippets taken out of context of the whole.

Paul told the Ephesians that when they read they could understand his knowledge in the mystery of Christ. What did Paul mean here?

Dealt with already.

Again, there are many who say they have been "moved to the spiritual state by the Holy Spirit", yet they disagree with each other, why is this?

Dealt with already.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I base my beliefs on what the bible teaches, not what various religious groups teach. I disagree with Catholicism and Calvinism equally.

No, actually, your heretical sect is in allignment with the Roman church on a great many erroneous doctrines. Here are a few:

1)Baptismal regeneration

2)Works complete salvation

3)Salvation can be lost

4)Denial of imputed righteousness

5)Baptism neccessary for salvation

6)both are big on formulas

7)denial of the sufficiency of the Cross to purchase salvation for the Elect

Just to name a few.

As I said, for a sect that is as anti-catholic as the CoC is, you sure do share a lot of the same errors.

God has revealed enough details to show that man has a part in his own salvation.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

You are are avoiding the question.

Is the Gospel spiritual?

Is the Gospel spiritually discerned?

Is the Gospel a "thing of God"?

Yes or no?

I have answered it many times. There were inspired men who received and understood revelations about God from the HS, they wrote them down where uninspired men, like us, can understand.

Once again you shuck and jive and totally avoid the questions.

1 Corinthians 2 says that "uninspired men like you" cannot understand without the Spirit being present within them, and find it foolishness.


You are are avoiding the question.

Is the Gospel spiritual?

Is the Gospel spiritually discerned?

Is the Gospel a "thing of God"?

Yes or no?

What more do you want?

Answer with a simple yes or no, and stop avoiding.

But they all claim to be speaking the 'truth', that if anyone disagrees with what they think, they will accuse them of false teaching. They all claim to have been 'taught' by the Holy Spirit, they contradict each other, and they accuse each other of teaching falsely.

Dealt with already.


Come on, have you run out of the canned responses that the CoC gives you already?

 

[Outrider]

God did not predestinate particular individuals, He predestinated a class of people to be saved---Christians.

Let's see. That's like saying George W. Bush is the President because he'll be elected next year. I don't think you understand the meaning of the term "election" on even the most elementary level.

One can choose to be a Christian or not, but if God predestinated particular individuals, there is no choice for the individual in his own salvation.

There was no choice even for the elect to make. The elect were unable to choose Christ in the first place.

If one is not part of the "elect", then he is lost and can do nothing about it.

This, I agree with. But, then, had God not provided redemption for the elect, they would be in the same boat.