Absolute proof.. can't deny.. the earth is flat

[Apple Sky]

What is the source that you accept as final definitive proof of any given position, ideology.

I accept the King James Bible, that I have with me, as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. I accept it even above what my eyes may see.

I do not place the word of mankind above what it says, teaches.

It is the final authority on history, above what other historians may think they know.

It is the final authority on science, above what other scientists may think they know.

In other words, in order to have an official debate, I have to know what you will accept as a final authority, otherwise you have no basis, or foundation, to check for fact/truth, and your position would be an ever wavering miasma, and pointless to debate.

God's Word is final authority when we choose it over what anyone says, what we feel, or what we see. We choose to do what God says in His Word over everything else that conflicts with what the Word says.

 

[GentleGospeller]

God's Word is final authority when we choose it over what anyone says, what we feel, or what we see. We choose to do what God says in His Word over everything else that conflicts with what the Word says.

When you say "God's word" what are you specifically referring to. I stated that I accept the KJB as final authority.

There are many things which claim to be "God's word", so I have to know exactly to what you are referring.

 

[HantsUK]

What is the source that you accept as final definitive proof of any given position, ideology.

I accept the King James Bible, that I have with me, as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. I accept it even above what my eyes may see.

I do not place the word of mankind above what it says, teaches.

It is the final authority on history, above what other historians may think they know.

It is the final authority on science, above what other scientists may think they know.

In other words, in order to have an official debate, I have to know what you will accept as a final authority, otherwise you have no basis, or foundation, to check for fact/truth, and your position would be an ever wavering miasma, and pointless to debate.

Can I make a practical suggestion to both Apple Sky & GentleGospeller:

YouTube videos and pretty graphics do not count as arguements - please explain your case in your own words.

No 'you're lying' - 'no I'm not, you are' exchanges.

Specific questions should get sepcific answers.

 

[lifepsyop]

God doesn't actually ride on clouds though. That's a fail also.

Well, that's straight from the words of Jesus, so you can take it up with him.

Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
- Mathew 24:30

Where do you get your information about what God does or doesn't do? Carl Sagan?

 

[lifepsyop]

Even if true, how would Noah know about the shape of the earth more than anybody else in the ancient world?

How did Moses know about the Creation? God revealed it to him.

I don't know exactly what Noah knew, but we do know from Genesis 6 that God was speaking directly with him and had specifically chosen him and his family to continue the line of humanity.

Also, what is your proof all the nations got this knowledge from Noah?

I didn't say I had proof, but it wouldn't be surprising if the nations preserved the cosmology handed down from their shared ancestor, the same way the nations of the world have preserved the memory of the flood.

 

[rturner76]

I suspect that @contratodo is forgetting there are a whole bunch of stars that simply aren't visible during the day on the side of the earth facing the sun, which are not the same stars that are visible on the side of the earth facing away from the sun.

Right, because the Earth doesn't turn and is at the center of the universe.

 

[GentleGospeller]

Can I make a practical suggestion to both Apple Sky & GentleGospeller:

YouTube videos and pretty graphics do not count as arguements - please explain your case in your own words.

No 'you're lying' - 'no I'm not, you are' exchanges.

Specific questions should get sepcific answers.

I agree. It's what I am trying to get to, but have to make sure of the ground/foundation, otherwise it would be like trying to pin down oil.

 

[GentleGospeller]

In order to actually 'debate' someone, I would have to know a few things for certainty from the opposing view:

1. What is their final authority? (as I said, mine is KJB, secondary, useful authority might be Wesbter's 1828 Dict, or EtymologyOnline, etc)
2. What is their basic, substantial model? (mine is the obloid, spheroid rotating on its own axis tilted earth, heliocentric, upon the plane of the Sol ecliptic; circumnavigating the Sol (Sun))
3. Have they ever actually travelled upon the earth, either in car, boat, train, plane to differing locations several thousand miles/kilometers apart? (I have. I have been in united States, California to Washington, to Arizona, to southern California, to New York and inbetween, as well as to Hawaii, as well as to other further islands well beyond Hawaii, near to Australia, and have been in vehicles, boats, planes (not so much trains though)).
4. Have they actually been to a differing place (like those mentioned above) and viewed the night sky there (I have.)
5. In their model do they accept that the moon reflects the light of the Sol (Sun), or does it give it's own light, or both, etc (I accept that it reflects the light (radiation, gamma, alpha, etc) of the Sol (Sun).
6. Do they accept a solid dome (I do not, but accept the atmosphere of 'air')
7. Do they accept a round, or square, or roulette wheel shaped earth, etc (I do not).
etc.

 

[trophy33]

How did Moses know about the Creation? God revealed it to him.

Why would God reveal Noah the shape of the earth, when its nothing different from what Noah could see with his own eyes? And where is any evidence of it?

I didn't say I had proof, but it wouldn't be surprising if the nations preserved the cosmology handed down from their shared ancestor, the same way the nations of the world have preserved the memory of the flood.

Without any evidence, such explanation is just a fantasy - history fiction. Much more simple and realistic explanation is that ancient nations thought the Earth is flat because it seems so at the first glance, without deeper discoveries.

Thats the point - the flat earthism did not have to be handed down by anybody, its what the world looks like naturally, if you do not have a way to travel around the globe or an ingenious idea like the Greeks had later. When you live for generations on a plain between seas, the flat earth is the first thing you will arrive at. No supernatural revelation needed.

 

[GentleGospeller]

Why would God reveal Noah the shape of the earth, when its nothing different from what Noah could see with his own eyes? And where is any evidence of it?


Without any evidence, such explanation is just a fantasy - history fiction. Much more simple and realistic explanation is that ancient nations thought the Earth is flat because it seems so at the first glance, without deeper discoveries.

Thats the point - the flat earthism did not have to be handed down by anybody, its what the world looks like naturally, if you do not have a way to travel around the globe or an ingenious idea like the Greeks had later. When you live for generations on a plain between seas, the flat earth is the first thing you will arrive at. No supernatural revelation needed.

If I might ask a clarifying question upon your part. Do you believe the flood was global, or ethnocentric (local) or mythology(allegory)?

 

[trophy33]

If I might ask a clarifying question upon your part. Do you believe the flood was global, or ethnocentric (local) or mythology(allegory)?

Not global. I think its a mixture of some real local event or events with mythology.

I am using "I think" instead of "I believe" intentionally. Such things are not a part of my faith.

 

[GentleGospeller]

Not global. I think its a mixture of some real local event or events with mythology.

I am using "I think" instead of "I believe" intentionally. Such things are not a part of my faith.

I see.

Are you able to share which parts you think are specifically speaking about "local" and which are "mythology" in your 'thinking'?

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.​

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.​

What about these two texts?

 

[trophy33]

I see.

Are you able to share which parts you think are specifically speaking about "local" and which are "mythology" in your 'thinking'?

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.​

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.​

What about these two texts?

It would be a lot of work, because its a lot of text. And a lot of guessing. The most obvious symbolism would be 40 days, clean/unclean animals, the dove, the rainbow.

Regarding mountains under the whole heaven, I read that locally, from the Mesopotamian, most probably Babylonian perspective. The author did not float above the globe in the solar system, that was not his perspective. Or, it can be read as a mythical exaggeration, that would work too.

 

[GentleGospeller]

It would be a lot of work, because its a lot of text. And a lot of guessing. The most obvious symbolism would be 40 days, clean/unclean animals, the dove, the rainbow.

Regarding mountains under the whole heaven, I read that locally, from the Mesopotamian, most probably Babylonian perspective. The author did not float above the globe in the solar system, that was not his perspective. Or, it can be read as a mythical exaggeration, that would work too.

Do you accept Genesis 1-3 as actual history, or mythology?

 

[Apple Sky]

Regarding mountains under the whole heaven, I read that locally, from the Mesopotamian, most probably Babylonian perspective.

So your once again dismissing these passages in the Bible ?

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

The author did not float above the globe in the solar system, that was not his perspective

I can just imagine a spinning globe covered in water with a boat stuck on top of it For the flood to have happened, as it states in the Bible, the earth must be level.

 

[prodromos]

For the flood to have happened, as it states in the Bible, the earth must be level.

Fact check false.

 

[trophy33]

Do you accept Genesis 1-3 as actual history, or mythology?

Mostly mythology. Adam could historically exist as the first priest, but I do not think he was literally made of literal dust, seduced with Eve by a literal talking snake etc.

I am seeing it more as a mythological reflection of the transformation from the hunter-gatherers society to the first agricultural societies in Mesopotamia. It may be remembered as some kind of a lost paradise, compared to the hard work in the fields, first cities, famines, wars etc.

If Genesis was written during the Babylonian era, which is the mainstream view, it may also simply serve as a beginning/prologue for the Mosaic Law.

 

[trophy33]

So your once again dismissing these passages in the Bible ?

Yes. We all dismiss many biblical passages, mostly in the Old testament. Either for scientific or moral reasons. Jesus did that, apostles did that, church does it, its nothing shocking.

 

[GentleGospeller]

Since my official debate proposal has went by the wayside, I will bow out of this thread.

 

[Apple Sky]

Yes. We all dismiss many biblical passages, mostly in the Old testament. Either for scientific or moral reasons. Jesus did that, apostles did that, church does it, its nothing shocking.

Yes - It is absolutely shocking..........