Absolute proof.. can't deny.. the earth is flat

[trophy33]

Yes - It is absolutely shocking..........

Maybe to Pharisees, but not to Christians. As I said, even Jesus did that, several times in gospels.

 

[Apple Sky]

Maybe to Pharisees, but not to Christians. As I said, even Jesus did that, several times in gospels.

When did Jesus dismiss Bible prophecies ?

 

[trophy33]

When did Jesus dismiss Bible prophecies ?

Why are you changing the topic? We are not talking about prophecies.

 

[Apple Sky]

Why are you changing the topic? We are not talking about prophecies.

Dismissing passages, that's what you were talking about, so you get to pick and choose which passages to dismiss ?

 

[trophy33]

Dismissing passages, that's what you were talking about, so you get to pick and choose which passages to dismiss ?

I said: "Yes. We all dismiss many biblical passages, mostly in the Old testament. Either for scientific or moral reasons. Jesus did that, apostles did that, church does it, its nothing shocking."

I did not say: "We dismiss all biblical passages".

 

[Apple Sky]

Jesus did that, apostles did that, church does it, its nothing shocking."

When has Jesus or the apostles ever dismissed passages ?

 

[trophy33]

When has Jesus or the apostles ever dismissed passages ?

These are quite known places.

For example:
It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’
But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mt 5:31

Leviticus 18: "You must not eat... xyz"
Jesus: “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
Mk 7:18-19

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
Mt 5:38

The apostles - for example, Paul clearly stated that the Mosaic Law was only till Christ.

Church - For example, the OT instructions about slavery, about killing, stoning, burning people and similar are all dismissed as non-Christian.

 

[Apple Sky]

These are quite known places.

For example:
It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’
But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mt 5:31

Leviticus 18: "You must not eat... xyz"
Jesus: “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
Mk 7:18-19

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
Mt 5:38

The apostles - for example, Paul clearly stated that the Mosaic Law was only till Christ.

Church - For example, the OT instructions about slavery, about killing, stoning, burning people and similar are all dismissed as non-Christian.

I see what you mean now - Thanks.

 

[lifepsyop]

Why would God reveal Noah the shape of the earth, when its nothing different from what Noah could see with his own eyes? And where is any evidence of it?

Ask Job. God revealed it to him as a point of demonstrating his creative power. "Where were you when the foundations of the earth were laid?"

Without any evidence, such explanation is just a fantasy - history fiction. Much more simple and realistic explanation is that ancient nations thought the Earth is flat because it seems so at the first glance, without deeper discoveries.

Right, it seems that it is flat, and even more so that it is stationary. That is our default experience, and you have the burden of proving a strange theory about the earth hurdling around outer space, of which we still have no real evidence today.

Thats the point - the flat earthism did not have to be handed down by anybody, its what the world looks like naturally, if you do not have a way to travel around the globe or an ingenious idea like the Greeks had later. When you live for generations on a plain between seas, the flat earth is the first thing you will arrive at. No supernatural revelation needed.

Which begs a question... was God incapable of creating an earth that was as it appeared to people on it?

... or was he only limited to creating what is essentially an illusion of an earth at rest that would fool humanity until the spinning globe earth was supposedly discovered, ( a discovery that would inspire generations of atheism and agnosticism )

btw, the ancient Greeks did the same thing that Copernicus, Kepler, Newton et al. did a millenia later, by creating a model out of an inversion of the data. e.g. crepuscular "curved" rays of a local sun on a flat earth are inverted to become 'flat' parallel sun rays on a curved earth... both of these scenarios will generate the pattern of shadows Eratosthenes observed.... likewise a spherical curved dome of celestial stars is mathematically inverted to become a 'flat' backdrop of stars upon a 'curved' earth.

The math works relatively either way, you're just moving 'the curve' from the heavens above to the earth below, which is why we mistakenly believe the earth is a sphere today.

 

[trophy33]

Ask Job.

How should I ask Job?

God revealed it to him as a point of demonstrating his creative power. "Where were you when the foundations of the earth were laid?"

Its a rhetorical question revealing nothing.

Right, it seems that it is flat, and even more so that it is stationary. That is our default experience, and you have the burden of proving a strange theory about the earth hurdling around outer space, of which we still have no real evidence today.

It was already proven, several centuries ago. However, my question is why would God need to reveal it if its exactly what it seems to be?

Much more simple explanation is that Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Sumer, Israel etc thought its what it seems to be, but were mistaken. No supernatural revelation to Noah is needed for all of them to see the same illusion.

Which begs a question... was God incapable of creating an earth that was as it appeared to people on it?

No, it does not beg such question. Optical illusions are common and it has nothing to do with God's capability.

... or was he only limited to creating what is essentially an illusion of an earth at rest that would fool humanity until the spinning globe earth was supposedly discovered, ( a discovery that would inspire generations of atheism and agnosticism )

God does what is best. If it was best to create a solar system with planets etc, then that is what God did.

 

[lifepsyop]

The ancient Greeks discovered the earth was spheroidal. They even calculated its diameter to 90% accuracy.

The ancient Greeks didn't discover the earth was spherical... they modeled it by transforming observations.

They took divergent 'local' sun rays hitting the flat earth at different angles (producing different shadow angles)... then they essentially "flattened" the sun rays into one parallel direction (assuming it is very far away)... This transferred the 'curvature' of the cast sunlight and instead modeled that curvature onto the earth itself.

It appears a lot of globe evidence is based on this style of mathematical inversion - transferring the celestial curvature to the earth. The spherical model "works", but it's false to claim it is the only way to interpret the observation. Either flat or sphere model works based on your starting assumptions.

 

[Apple Sky]

God does what is best. If it was best to create a solar system with planets etc, then that is what God did.

Why on earth (literally) would God create a spinning ball, hurtling through space that is moving around the sun ?
Why would God create a world that's in danger of big iced rocks being strewn at it ?

Copernicus, Kepler, Newton are all wrong. At least Galileo admitted he was wrong.
Even Martin Luther knew the truth about the earth & the cosmos.

 

[trophy33]

Why on earth (literally) would God create a spinning ball, hurtling through space that is moving around the sun ?

Because its best and elegant.

As you know very well, basically nothing works on flat earth, as you have many times tried to make it work, but always failed. Its not a good design.

 

[RDKirk]

The ancient Greeks didn't discover the earth was spherical... they modeled it by transforming observations.

They took divergent 'local' sun rays hitting the flat earth at different angles (producing different shadow angles)... then they essentially "flattened" the sun rays into one parallel direction (assuming it is very far away)... This transferred the 'curvature' of the cast sunlight and instead modeled that curvature onto the earth itself.

It appears a lot of globe evidence is based on this style of mathematical inversion - transferring the celestial curvature to the earth. The spherical model "works", but it's false to claim it is the only way to interpret the observation. Either flat or sphere model works based on your starting assumptions.


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They used more than one method.

 

[lifepsyop]

How should I ask Job?

Its a rhetorical question revealing nothing.

Job 38 is the definition of revelatory.

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
“Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?

God does what is best. If it was best to create a solar system with planets etc, then that is what God did.

I wonder why he never wanted to reveal 'what is best' ?

God seems very excited to talk about his creation and be given glory for specific acts of generation of the earth and heavens.

In your view, why didn't he want to tell us the truth about the solar system anywhere in scripture?

 

[lifepsyop]

They used more than one method.

Eratosthenes is usually the most cited.

I'm guessing that a similar principle may apply to the other methods as well.

 

[Apple Sky]

As you know very well, basically nothing works on flat earth, as you have many times tried to make it work, but always failed. Its not a good design.

I doubt God agrees with you.

 

[trophy33]

I doubt God agrees with you.

I doubt God agrees with you.

 

[trophy33]

Job 38 is the definition of revelatory.

I would rather say its "the definition" of poetry.

I wonder why he never wanted to reveal 'what is best' ?

For what purpose? When humanity reached the technological level for that, it revealed itself. Like bacteria, atoms, gravity laws, Pythagorean theorem and similar. Science is not the point of Scriptures.

God seems very excited to talk about his creation and be given glory for specific acts of generation of the earth and heavens.

Scriptures (not God) seem to like to praise God for the creation.

In your view, why didn't he want to tell us the truth about the solar system anywhere in scripture?

The same reason why he did not want to tell the ancient Jews "the truth" about virology, mathematics, geology, anatomy, economy, physics, chemistry or about China or South America. Its not the point of Scriptures.

And Scriptures are also not about "us", we live quite a long time after them. The audience were the ancient Jews (and later the Roman world, in the New Testament).

 

[prodromos]

Eratosthenes is usually the most cited.

All he did was calculate the size of the globe. They already knew it was a globe long before