Absolute proof.. can't deny.. the earth is flat

[Aussie Pete]

I am not so sure that most knew better back then. Many would may not have even asked the question. But just for fun let's assume that the writers of the Bible did not know any better and thought that the Earth was flat.

Does that change the message of the Bible one iota? I would not think so, but then I am not a Christian. But I think that the message would have been the same regardless of what one believed the shape of the Earth to be.

In other words Flat or Sphere is not a biblical topic. One should not refer to the Bible as an authority on this topic. One should refer to those that know how to measure the Earth. Guess what? It's a sphere.

The only reason I get involved in this discussion is that some FE people believe the Bible states that the earth is flat and some judge Christians who think otherwise. Christians above all should be concerned with truth. FE is not the truth. FE believers are pretty much harmless until they start judging those who do not agree with them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't believe that's the case. As stated, the term 'face' is first used in relation to the face of the deep, the face of the waters. Face suggests a flat surface with features, which accords with other metaphors such as clay seal and earth with heavens stretched over like a tent. You're grasping at straws, my friend.

Bible teaches flat earth, period.

The Bible is not a science book. The message of its writers does not depend on the shape of the Earth.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I don't believe that's the case. As stated, the term 'face' is first used in relation to the face of the deep, the face of the waters. Face suggests a flat surface with features, which accords with other metaphors such as clay seal and earth with heavens stretched over like a tent. You're grasping at straws, my friend.

Bible teaches flat earth, period.

It's as false as your claim that everyone would love Jesus if they met Him. Or do you not believe the Bible when it says that they hated Him for no reason?

 

[ewq1938]

I don't believe that's the case. As stated, the term 'face' is first used in relation to the face of the deep, the face of the waters.

Gen_1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This is still related to the planet.

Face suggests a flat surface with features

And also can be part of a spherical head (planet).

which accords with other metaphors such as clay seal and earth with heavens stretched over like a tent. You're grasping at straws, my friend.

Bible teaches flat earth, period.

It doesn't teach a flat Earth.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Lol, comments like 'This is still related to the planet' are fallacies, because you're assuming what is to be proven. I say 'face' is still related to the flat surface of water.

At best, 'face' is ambiguous or unhelpful either way. The Bible teaches FE, even guys like Prof Michael Heiser are willing to admit it. He's an angry penguin who scorns flat earth, but he is an expert is near east ancient cultures and languages.

He says:
"The biblical writers do indeed describe a flat round earth (with other features the flat earthers skip; see below). They wrote about the world this way because they lived at a time before knowledge of the natural world was sufficient to demonstrate otherwise."

Christians Who Believe the Earth is Really Flat - Does It Get Any Dumber Than This? - Dr. Michael Heiser

So maybe you should consider the 'out' that he takes - folks were just too dumb in those days to get our sophisticated modern theories.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Lol, comments like 'This is still related to the planet' are fallacies, because you're assuming what is to be proven. I say 'face' is still related to the flat surface of water.

At best, 'face' is ambiguous or unhelpful either way. The Bible teaches FE, even guys like Prof Michael Heiser are willing to admit it. He's an angry penguin who scorns flat earth, but he is an expert is near east ancient cultures and languages.

He says:
"The biblical writers do indeed describe a flat round earth (with other features the flat earthers skip; see below). They wrote about the world this way because they lived at a time before knowledge of the natural world was sufficient to demonstrate otherwise."

Christians Who Believe the Earth is Really Flat - Does It Get Any Dumber Than This? - Dr. Michael Heiser

So maybe you should consider the 'out' that he takes - folks were just too dumb in those days to get our sophisticated modern theories.

So what? The Bible writers were merely wrong, if that is the case. The Bible does not even make the mistake of claiming that it is without error.

Does a spherical Earth refute God?

 

[Lost4words]

The Bible is not a science book. It does not lay out God's creation in minute detail.

Plus, the people at the time saw things differently than we do. An eclipse would have meant far more to them than us. Their understanding of God's creation would have been very different too.

 

[Irkle Berserkle]

I'm waiting for a convincing Flat Earth explanation for the four seasons, not to mention the fact that it's winter in Australia when it's summer in Arizona.

 

[JacksBratt]

Such as? Until the space age, there might have been a modicum of excuse in believing some variation on FE. Even then, mariners knew better. There is no Hebrew word for sphere, which is as good a reason as any as to why the earth is not so described.

If your not going to accept actual pictures of things that should be hidden and over the curve... then...why would I accept pictures of some guy on the moon or from some ISS?

Also, there is a Hebrew word for ball.....


Ido Rabin
, Hebrew is my native language
Updated Apr 30, 2016

AFAIK in modern Hebrew there are distinctively separate words for a circle and a sphere.

Circle can be an "Ee-gool" עיגול, or a "Ma'agahl", מעגל, those are reserved for 2d circular shapes.

Sphere is 'Kadur" כדור, used for the 3d circular thingies, but the word can also be used for describing the object one plays soccer or basketball with (a ball), or to a bullet in its cartridge. Or to a medical pill or tablet. Hmm.. many uses..

Interestingly, there is no word I can think of in Hebrew for an ellipse - and Hebrew resorts to using "Ellipsa", or "oval". [Edit] I have been reminded of "סגלגל", "Sgalgal", which is an adjective for an "Oval" object.

 

[Aussie Pete]

If your not going to accept actual pictures of things that should be hidden and over the curve... then...why would I accept pictures of some guy on the moon or from some ISS?

Also, there is a Hebrew word for ball.....


Ido Rabin
, Hebrew is my native language
Updated Apr 30, 2016

AFAIK in modern Hebrew there are distinctively separate words for a circle and a sphere.

Circle can be an "Ee-gool" עיגול, or a "Ma'agahl", מעגל, those are reserved for 2d circular shapes.

Sphere is 'Kadur" כדור, used for the 3d circular thingies, but the word can also be used for describing the object one plays soccer or basketball with (a ball), or to a bullet in its cartridge. Or to a medical pill or tablet. Hmm.. many uses..

Interestingly, there is no word I can think of in Hebrew for an ellipse - and Hebrew resorts to using "Ellipsa", or "oval". [Edit] I have been reminded of "סגלגל", "Sgalgal", which is an adjective for an "Oval" object.

You accept eyewitness accounts in the Bible, assuming that you are a Christian, of course. Yet you call born again Christians, who have walked on the moon and seen the earth, liars. Why would they lie? They were US navy pilots, chosen as the best of the most talented and experienced American flyers. And you are happy to insult God's people? Why would you NOT accept their testimony?

Optical illusions are commonplace. I've seen small boats floating 20 feet in the air. The camera does lie. You tube proves that over and over again.

 

[Lost4words]

You accept eyewitness accounts in the Bible, assuming that you are a Christian, of course. Yet you call born again Christians, who have walked on the moon and seen the earth, liars. Why would they lie? They were US navy pilots, chosen as the best of the most talented and experienced American flyers. And you are happy to insult God's people? Why would you NOT accept their testimony?

Optical illusions are commonplace. I've seen small boats floating 20 feet in the air. The camera does lie. You tube proves that over and over again.

I once saw a big ship off in the distance and it looked like it was hovering over the water! Truly amazing.

 

[JacksBratt]

You accept eyewitness accounts in the Bible, assuming that you are a Christian, of course. Yet you call born again Christians, who have walked on the moon and seen the earth, liars. Why would they lie? They were US navy pilots, chosen as the best of the most talented and experienced American flyers. And you are happy to insult God's people? Why would you NOT accept their testimony?

The bible is the word of God and is solid truth that I can trust my soul and eternal life on. If someone in the ancient times saw it and it was recorded in the Holy Bible.. then it was truth... Even the fact that the earth was created in six literal days.

I believe no human when my research and observations show different than their "testimony".

Men and women can be bought, blackmailed, threatened, and coerced into stating anything. Even if it totally false and against their view.

US Navy pilots are property of the US government and their lives are dependent on them parroting anything and everything that the military tells them to. I trust no government or it's officials to be telling the truth when their agenda, righteous or not, is perpetrated by their statements.

IMO, the men that "walked on the moon" were lying. For whatever their motivation... they were lying and their depression that was obvious in their post "moon walk" press conference... is solid testament to that. Not to mention the vast amount of video and logical evidence to the contrary of their tale.

It is my God given right to believe this and state it as my personal opinion.

Optical illusions are commonplace. I've seen small boats floating 20 feet in the air. The camera does lie. You tube proves that over and over again.

Yes, optical illusions and mirages are fact.. but they are dependent on certain specific atmospheric conditions. The pictures that were shown in the video are optical facts that can be observed on any day. The infrared filter cuts through the smog and haze to show the true vision.

I have looked but I cannot find a video that Rob Skiba put on YouTube. In the video he describes an Island feature in the ocean that he could see from shore as a kid. He saw it almost every day in all kinds of weather. It was not until he started to research the FE that he realized that, due to the curve of the earth being 8 inches per mile squared... that he realized that he should not be able to see it.

In the video he talks about him and a friend going to a university mathematician and asking him to calculate how far beyond the curve an object would be if it was at the distance of this island formation.

The mathematician calculated that it should be well below the curve. When they explained to him that they can see it everyday... the professor just stated that you shouldn't be able to.

These things are facts that we can observe everyday but we fail to see the significance.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I have a question. What do you personally "experience" that proves or even suggests a globe sphere earth?

I cannot tell one way or another if it is flat or spherical and it would not affect my life in anyway if it was one and not the other.

So, what is your personal experience that suggests a globe?

In London we see the sunrise in the east, north east east, and set north west west in summer. This affect would only occur if we are on a globe at an acute angle with the sun never rising above 80 degrees. In winter the sun is lower in the sky and the days much shorter. Only being on a sphere would you get this affect.

I have flown from South Korea to London and travelled by ship to Australia and Japan. It is very clear to have an horizon and things appearing over it as you get clearer. Seeing ships appear over the horizon on a clear day is quite unnerving, because you are totally alone and then this massive structure grows from the top down as it comes into view. When you are in the ocean on a clear day in calm weather with no sounds, it is so quiet. You can literally hear dolphins and flying fish jumping. When you approach land you know you can see 30+ miles as mountains appear, but things on the water have to come over the horizon.

I have followed planes taking off and landing on different routes with my kids using tracking software. And whether going west, east, south or north the speeds and distances correspond exactly to a spherical globe.

International space station. You can look up the orbital cycle of the ISS as it passes over you part of the world. I got on a web site, found its path one summer, and in the evening saw it pass over head. In some ways it is remarkably close and could be mistaken for a plane, but you can see its odd shape.

Looking up at the stars and knowing the axis rotation of the earth you can work out how the stars change position with the seasons and earths position round the sun.

The trouble with a flat earth view all of the above facts would be impossible to replicate. People can believe what they want, I like to challenge myself as to what is real and how it makes sense, because people do get things wrong all the time.
God bless you

 

[LightLoveHope]

If your not going to accept actual pictures of things that should be hidden and over the curve... then...why would I accept pictures of some guy on the moon or from some ISS?

Also, there is a Hebrew word for ball.....


Ido Rabin
, Hebrew is my native language
Updated Apr 30, 2016

AFAIK in modern Hebrew there are distinctively separate words for a circle and a sphere.

Circle can be an "Ee-gool" עיגול, or a "Ma'agahl", מעגל, those are reserved for 2d circular shapes.

Sphere is 'Kadur" כדור, used for the 3d circular thingies, but the word can also be used for describing the object one plays soccer or basketball with (a ball), or to a bullet in its cartridge. Or to a medical pill or tablet. Hmm.. many uses..

Interestingly, there is no word I can think of in Hebrew for an ellipse - and Hebrew resorts to using "Ellipsa", or "oval". [Edit] I have been reminded of "סגלגל", "Sgalgal", which is an adjective for an "Oval" object.

You make a good point in terms of presenting evidence.
But a photograph alone with horizons can only stand up if it was shown as being taken in a defined situation or without a desire to prove a point, but just show what is.

It is why I like the 3 mile lake shore experiment with a light source and two holes through which it is observed along the shore, one at 1.5 miles and one at 3 miles.
If the light appears above the final hole, the earth is curved. You cannot fake this affect and it is what a curved earth would predict. The affect is only a few feet, but enough to show what is happening.

And this all matters because if you stand for truth in a definable real world sense, you need to be able to show truth in one of the simplest areas of worldwide definitions, is the world flat or round?

Neurologists have discovered when someone feels alienated from their normal group, they go back to their sacred beliefs, and the part of the brain that deals with balance and sense shuts down. Only when empathy with everyone is established and the issues at hand are neutral, can a reasonable balanced position be reached. It is why people become radicalised and seemingly hold extreme positions even when the complex facts show otherwise. But that is fine, Jesus calls us to love one another, not be "right" all the time. God bless you

 

[Lost4words]

Flat earth believers have a lot of egg on their faces now with space travel going to be the norm very soon.

I bet they will say that the aircraft has fish eye glass in it or, it never took off and one was in a theme park ride!

Thousands, upon thousands upon thousands of people are involved in space exploration, satellites, astronomy, space travel, flight, universities, tech firms, countless space agencies....

ARE THEY ALL LYING?

REALLY??!!!

 

[Aussie Pete]

The bible is the word of God and is solid truth that I can trust my soul and eternal life on. If someone in the ancient times saw it and it was recorded in the Holy Bible.. then it was truth... Even the fact that the earth was created in six literal days.

I believe no human when my research and observations show different than their "testimony".

Men and women can be bought, blackmailed, threatened, and coerced into stating anything. Even if it totally false and against their view.

US Navy pilots are property of the US government and their lives are dependent on them parroting anything and everything that the military tells them to. I trust no government or it's officials to be telling the truth when their agenda, righteous or not, is perpetrated by their statements.

IMO, the men that "walked on the moon" were lying. For whatever their motivation... they were lying and their depression that was obvious in their post "moon walk" press conference... is solid testament to that. Not to mention the vast amount of video and logical evidence to the contrary of their tale.

It is my God given right to believe this and state it as my personal opinion.


Yes, optical illusions and mirages are fact.. but they are dependent on certain specific atmospheric conditions. The pictures that were shown in the video are optical facts that can be observed on any day. The infrared filter cuts through the smog and haze to show the true vision.

I have looked but I cannot find a video that Rob Skiba put on YouTube. In the video he describes an Island feature in the ocean that he could see from shore as a kid. He saw it almost every day in all kinds of weather. It was not until he started to research the FE that he realized that, due to the curve of the earth being 8 inches per mile squared... that he realized that he should not be able to see it.

In the video he talks about him and a friend going to a university mathematician and asking him to calculate how far beyond the curve an object would be if it was at the distance of this island formation.

The mathematician calculated that it should be well below the curve. When they explained to him that they can see it everyday... the professor just stated that you shouldn't be able to.

These things are facts that we can observe everyday but we fail to see the significance.

Well you've made yourself pretty clear. I should warn you that Satan is the accuser of the brethren. You will answer to God. I expect nothing from unbelievers. They would not know the truth if they tripped over it. But Christians should love truth. You, plainly, do not.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I'm waiting for a convincing Flat Earth explanation for the four seasons, not to mention the fact that it's winter in Australia when it's summer in Arizona.

You will be waiting forever. About as long as it will take FE people to accept they are wrong.

 

[ewq1938]

Lol, comments like 'This is still related to the planet' are fallacies, because you're assuming what is to be proven. I say 'face' is still related to the flat surface of water.

Yes but that is very different than "the face of the world". A face turning and the world turning makes sense to me so world here would be a sphere like a head with a face is. Anyways, you asked if there was any scripture that could be interpreted as spherical and this is what I found. Unfortunately zero verses say plainly, "The Earth is round and flat" or "The Earth is round and spherical." Tents and pillars do not support FE. They are obvious metaphorical terms related to building and structures that were man made. And some verses using "circle" could be interpreted as a flat circle or a spherical circle so that is no particular evidence either way on it's own.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes but that is very different than "the face of the world". A face turning and the world turning makes sense to me so world here would be a sphere like a head with a face is. Anyways, you asked if there was any scripture that could be interpreted as spherical and this is what I found. Unfortunately zero verses say plainly, "The Earth is round and flat" or "The Earth is round and spherical." Tents and pillars do not support FE. They are obvious metaphorical terms related to building and structures that were man made. And some verses using "circle" could be interpreted as a flat circle or a spherical circle so that is no particular evidence either way on it's own.

So here's that image of the ancient Hebrew conception of the world. Why don't you show me in YOUR conception how all the pieces fit together, please.

And a more recent one of Yahweh's Terrarium, just because you're giving it some effort:

 

[ewq1938]

So here's that image of the ancient Hebrew conception of the world.

Did an ancient Hebrew create that?