• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,649
6,088
Visit site
✟1,033,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Everything provided was collected some time ago in that previous post. From many different sources including Stockexchange. Why are you trying to make it all about something else now and not the meaning of the word Sabbatismos? Which means a keeping of the Sabbath by resting.


I was asking for your source, and apparently it is from a thread.

So let's look at an example given:

The phrase shall ye keep your sabbaths is translated from the Greek phrase σαββατιείτε τα σάββατα sabbatieite ta sabbata, which literally means, You shall sabbathize the Sabbaths.


Lev 23:32 σάββατα σαββάτων ἔσται ὑμῖν, καὶ ταπεινώσετε τὰς ψυχὰς ὑμῶν· ἀπὸ ἐνάτης τοῦ μηνὸς ἀπὸ ἑσπέρας ἕως ἑσπέρας σαββατιεῖτε τὰ σάββατα ὑμῶν.

What does this tell you?
 
Upvote 0

fatherforgivethem

He will never leave you nor forsake you.
Mar 16, 2021
53
17
Brazil
✟21,414.00
Country
Brazil
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
A question I have and is always on my mind during all of it:

Jesus is the Son of God and would never make anyone break the commandments. Everyone agrees on that. For example, Jesus would NEVER make anyone covet the neighbor or to steal, to not love the neighbor, etc.
So, what is the explanation of Jesus making other people break the Sabbath, both on Luke 6:1 and John 5:8-11?
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,635
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I was asking for your source, and apparently it is from a thread.

So let's look at an example given:

The phrase shall ye keep your sabbaths is translated from the Greek phrase σαββατιείτε τα σάββατα sabbatieite ta sabbata, which literally means, You shall sabbathize the Sabbaths.


Lev 23:32 σάββατα σαββάτων ἔσται ὑμῖν, καὶ ταπεινώσετε τὰς ψυχὰς ὑμῶν· ἀπὸ ἐνάτης τοῦ μηνὸς ἀπὸ ἑσπέρας ἕως ἑσπέρας σαββατιεῖτε τὰ σάββατα ὑμῶν.

What does this tell you?

No you were provided the sources already. Why are you pretending it is something it is not? Are you just going to hand waive post # 337 linked? So do you now agree that sabbatismos has application of keeping the sabbath through resting?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,649
6,088
Visit site
✟1,033,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Amazing are you just going to hand waive post # 337 linked? So do you now agree that sabbatismos has application of keeping the sabbath through resting?


I am not handwaiving at all. I am quoting it and asking you what you think it means.

The phrase shall ye keep your sabbaths is translated from the Greek phrase σαββατιείτε τα σάββατα sabbatieite ta sabbata, which literally means, You shall sabbathize the Sabbaths.



Lev 23:32 σάββατα σαββάτων ἔσται ὑμῖν, καὶ ταπεινώσετε τὰς ψυχὰς ὑμῶν· ἀπὸ ἐνάτης τοῦ μηνὸς ἀπὸ ἑσπέρας ἕως ἑσπέρας σαββατιεῖτε τὰ σάββατα ὑμῶν.

What does this tell you?
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,635
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I am not handwaiving at all. I am quoting it and asking you what you think it means.

The phrase shall ye keep your sabbaths is translated from the Greek phrase σαββατιείτε τα σάββατα sabbatieite ta sabbata, which literally means, You shall sabbathize the Sabbaths.


Lev 23:32 σάββατα σαββάτων ἔσται ὑμῖν, καὶ ταπεινώσετε τὰς ψυχὰς ὑμῶν· ἀπὸ ἐνάτης τοῦ μηνὸς ἀπὸ ἑσπέρας ἕως ἑσπέρας σαββατιεῖτε τὰ σάββατα ὑμῶν.


What does this tell you?

I asked you a question. Do you now agree that sabbatismos has application of keeping the sabbath through resting? You avoided answering this. Why are you asking questions already answered in the post you are quoting from in regards to Leviticus 23:32 from post # 337 linked?
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,649
6,088
Visit site
✟1,033,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I asked you a question. Do you now agree that sabbatismos has application of keeping the sabbath through resting? You avoided answering this. Why are you asking questions already answered in the post you are quoting from in regards to Leviticus 23:32 from post # 337 linked?

Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”


Because this is not speaking of the weekly Sabbath.

The word means "A" sabbath rest.


 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,635
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”

Because this is not speaking of the weekly Sabbath.

The word means "A" sabbath rest.


True it is not speaking of a weekly Sabbath it is an example of application of the use of the verb σαββατίζω sabbatizo to an annual ceremonial sabbath and keeping sabbath through resting which is the same application of sabbatismo use in Hebrews 4:9 keeping of the sabbath through resting (historical use) which is what is being shared with you. Now did you want to answer my question? Do you now agree that sabbatismos has application of keeping the sabbath through resting?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,649
6,088
Visit site
✟1,033,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
True it is not speaking of a weekly Sabbath it is an example of application of the use of the verb σαββατίζω sabbatizo and keeping sabbath through resting which is the same application of sabbatismo use in Hebrews 4:9 keeping of the sabbath through resting. Now did you want to answer my question? Do you now agree that sabbatismos has application of keeping the sabbath through resting?

No, it means keeping "A" sabbath through resting. There is no article in Hebrews. And it already described the rest it is talking about. And it is not the weekly Sabbath.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,635
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
No, it means keeping "A" sabbath through resting. There is no article in Hebrews. And it already described the rest it is talking about. And it is not the weekly Sabbath.

There does not need to be an article for all Koine Greek deverbal nouns. This was already addressed in the post you were quoting from and why historical use was shared. Leviticus 23:32 is only an example of sabbatizo application to keeping the Sabbath through resting because annual sabbath or weekly is irrelevant here as it is the historical use and word application that is being considered as a reference to sabbatismos. Yes and I agree that sabbatismos means keeping a sabbath through resting which is what I have said from the start. So your agreeing with me now?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,649
6,088
Visit site
✟1,033,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There does not need to be an article for all Koine Greek deverbal nouns. This was already addressed in the post you were quoting from and why historical use was shared. Resting is how the Sabbath is kept you would agree?

Ancient Greek nouns could be definite or indefinite in the absence of an explicit definite article: the definite article develops only gradually in ancient Greek, and even in Koine there are contexts where Greek does not use a definite article and English would. But without a definite article, the default assumption would be indefinite.

In this form it often coincide with the vocative case but for these nouns (sabbatismos) it's an exception and is nominative without article. When found in this form it implies an indefinite article but not a number


Presumed indefinite. And the reason it says "even" in Koine is because by then they were definitely using the article, and Hebrews certainly does.

So we are back to "a" sabbath rest.

It spells out what Sabbath it is, and it is not the weekly.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,635
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Presumed indefinite. And the reason it says "even" in Koine is because by then they were definitely using the article, and Hebrews certainly does. So we are back to "a" sabbath rest. It spells out what Sabbath it is, and it is not the weekly.

Sorry but I respectfully disagree. Your not considering context and the Greek words usage all through the chapter previously discussed. In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is κατάπαυσις; katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4).

So there is no misunderstandings. I have never disagreed that the use of sabbatismos does not mean Sabbath rest. I have only provided the original Greek showing it also means "a keeping of the Sabbath by resting" that is supported in the Aramaic and Lasma versions of the bible and showing historical use that supports this interpretation.

Even if I was to only use the "Sabbath rest" interpretation it also does not effect the context that I have already provided in Hebrews 4:1-5 showing that there are two rests being discussed here. One being to our rest that we receive by believing and following God's Word from Hebrews 4:1-3 and Gods rest/My rest/ His rest that is defined as the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world in Hebrews 4:3-5 that those who believe Gods' Word (the gospel) enter into by faith.

Now back to sabbatismos. Now if your definition is the only correct version (which I believe is not), it would make no sense in using the Greek word σαββατισμός in verse 9. Why not just use κατάπαυσις σάββατον in the Greek rather than σαββατισμός? This would be more consistent with the rest of the chapters use of κατάπαυσις in Hebrews 4:1; 3; 4; 8; 10; 11 but it doesn't. Clearly a different meaning is intended by using σαββατισμός to what was written previously. This is why historical use was provided in the earlier post to you and that it's meaning is supported in the Greek and the Aramaic and Lasma translations as "a keeping of the sabbath by resting."

What ever translation you wish to use does not really matter to me, as the context has already been provided in Hebrews 4:1-5 with the two rests and it is only those who believe and follow God's Word that enter into God's Sabbath rest which is defined in Hebrews 4:3-5 as the seventh day Sabbath made from the foundation of the would.

Hope this is helpful.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,649
6,088
Visit site
✟1,033,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is κατάπαυσις; katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.”

It means a sabbath rest. You continue to add an article not present. As to the context:

7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.

The sabbath rest he is talking about is the rest offered "today". Joshua did not give them that rest and it still remains today to be entered into.


And it cannot be the weekly Sabbath, because they were doing that in the wilderness and in Joshua's time. It is speaking of the the rest of salvation, of ceasing from our works.

According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4).

According to the text it references God finishing His creative work, resting on the seventh day:

“So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”


God's works were finished since then. He was resting. But others did not enter into it. Those in the wilderness did not enter His rest. They did rest on the Sabbath, however, and this is a different rest.

So there is no misunderstandings. I have never disagreed that the use of sabbatismos does not mean Sabbath rest. I have only provided the original Greek showing it also means "a keeping of the Sabbath by resting"

You have not actually shown the usage in the Greek that demonstrates that. You just made reference to it. In Hebrews 4 it is indefinite. The Plutarch reference is contested whether it is original to start with. And you didn't list the others.

Hebrews came before the other four uses referenced in the Anchor Bible dictionary. So is not dependent on these others. Two of the referenced in that work I do not have access to in the Greek, and you have not shown them. However, I did locate two of the references. One is in Justin Martry, and the other is in the Apostolic constitutions. Both are anarthrous as here.

Apostolic Constitutions
Book 2, 36

upload_2021-4-26_2-50-35.png


You shall observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a sabbath rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.

Here as in Hebrews it is describing the character of the rest, and is without the article.



Justin Martyr, ”Dialogue With Trypho” 23


upload_2021-4-26_2-43-23.png


Remain as you were born. For if before Abraham there was no need of circumcision, nor before Moses a sabbath rest, and feasts and sacrifices, neither now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham.


Even if I was to only use the "Sabbath rest" interpretation

Which you would need to because it is indefinite

it also does not effect the context that I have already provided in Hebrews 4:1-5 showing that there are two rests being discussed here. One being to our rest that we receive by believing and following God's Word from Hebrews 4:1-3 and Gods rest/My rest/ His rest that is defined as the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world in Hebrews 4:3-5 that those who believe Gods' Word (the gospel) enter into by faith.
Incorrect, because "a sabbath rest" is connected to the today rest that Joshua did not give them, but is still available. The Sabbath is not a "today" rest. And they were keeping the Sabbath in Joshua's time and in the wilderness.

7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.


Now back to sabbatismos. Now if your definition is the only correct version (which I believe is not), it would make no sense in using the Greek word σαββατισμός in verse 9. Why not just use κατάπαυσις σάββατον in the Greek rather than σαββατισμός? This would be more consistent with the rest of the chapters use of κατάπαυσις in Hebrews 4:1; 3; 4; 8 but it doesn't.

Because it is entering into the rest of God from His works which continued on since the 7th day, but which those who kept the Sabbath in the wilderness and in Joshua's day did not enter. It is resting from our works as He did from His.

What ever translation you wish to use does not really matter to me, as the context has already been provided in Hebrews 4:1-5 with the two rests and it is only those who believe and follow God's Word that enter into God's Sabbath rest which is defined in Hebrews 4:3-5 as the seventh day Sabbath made from the foundation of the would.

The rest is stated to not have been entered into by those in the wilderness and in the time of Joshua, and they did rest on the weekly sabbath.

The sabbath rest here is defined as still available "today" and is a rest from our own works.

7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: pasifika
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
30,561
9,483
NW England
✟1,260,218.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A question I have and is always on my mind during all of it:

Jesus is the Son of God and would never make anyone break the commandments. Everyone agrees on that. For example, Jesus would NEVER make anyone covet the neighbor or to steal, to not love the neighbor, etc.
So, what is the explanation of Jesus making other people break the Sabbath, both on Luke 6:1 and John 5:8-11?

He didn't make them break the Sabbath.

They may have broken some man made rules which said, "you cannot do x" but that was not what God said.
As Jesus pointed out, if they had had an animal which had fallen into a ditch on the Sabbath, they would have rescued it. Their rules allowed them to pull a donkey out of a ditch on the Sabbath - so it was hypocritical of them to complain that a man picked up his bed and walked; they should have been rejoicing that he had been healed by God, not ignoring it and trying to enforce their own, strict, laws.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Taodeching
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
10,095
3,433
✟984,265.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1). If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the Old Covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations, yet certain people continue to remain under the delusion that they will receive eternal life based on the merits of their best efforts to obey the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment) — “salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works.” (Galatians 1:6-9)
Sabbath is a metaphor for salvation but in the metaphor we are like the slaves with no authority to rest or take rest. Our desire for rest alone is not enough and if we take the rest by our own authority we will be whipped and forced to work. Indeed it is only the master of the house who can give us this rest as it is only him who has the authority to give it and any other rest taken by any other means is void. This is the context of the 4th commandment as it is given to the heads of the homes who are charges to keep those under them. Christ is our master and it is only he who can give us rest and we cannot take it for ourselves. Outside of Christ all rest is void and although it may have physical benifit that is all it has.

Keeping the Sabbath is good provided the goal is to honor God but it is not good when in doing so we declare a counter-gospel message. The latter of which is a rest we are trying to define without Christ and is meaningless.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,635
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Might have to spread this one out over a few posts so it is not an overload.
It means a sabbath rest. You continue to add an article not present. As to the context: 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. The sabbath rest he is talking about is the rest offered "today". Joshua did not give them that rest and it still remains today to be entered into. And it cannot be the weekly Sabbath, because they were doing that in the wilderness and in Joshua's time. It is speaking of the the rest of salvation, of ceasing from our works
Once again as posted earlier your arguing with yourself here as I have never made any arguments that sabbatismos does not mean "a sabbath rest" and have already said it does. It also means "a sabbath observance" or "a keeping of a sabbath through resting" already shown through the Greek and earlier translations "a keeping of the Sabbath" (Aramaic and Lasma) and the Historical use of sabbatizo in the Septuagint. I have never said the words use in Hebrews 4:9 has definite article and an indiffinite article to "a Sabbath keeping through resting does not change the word meanings or definitions. I have only provided the Aramiac or Syriac translations that use "the Sabbath" translation and supplied a lot of evidence in support of it's use. What ever translation you choose to use however, as posted earlier. "a Sabbath keeping" or "a Sabbath rest" it makes no difference to the chapter context as we keep the Sabbath by resting on the "seventh day" of the week. So any argument here your making does not effect what is being shared here.

As posted earlier it makes no difference to me what translation is used here as the contexts to the two rests are defined already earlier on in the chapter in Hebrews 4:1-5 which is, 1. our rest we receive through believing and following Gods' Word (the Gospel rest) in Hebrews 4:1-3 and 2. God's rest/His rest/My rest which is defined as the seventh day sabbath rest finished from the foundation of the world reference back to Genesis 2:1-3 in Hebrews 4:3-5. So what ever translation you wish to use we still get the same outcome from the chapter contexts. There still remains a sabbath rest to the people of God.

Of course this is referring to the weekly Sabbath as this is the context of Hebrews 4:9. If we follow Hebrews 3:8-19 to Hebrews 4:1-3; 5-8 the reason God’s people did not enter into God’s rest is because of sin and unbelief; Hebrews 3:12-13 tells warns us saying take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God…. Lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrews 3:17-19 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Now this was the context of those who did not enter into God’s rest (the seventh day Sabbath from Genesis 2:1 in Hebrews 4:1-5). Hebrews 4:5-8 is only a continuation from the previous scriptures in Hebrews 4:6 saying Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: This is agreeing here with Hebrews 4:1-3 that says v3, For we which have believed (present tense now) do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

So the contrast here is to those who believe and those who do not believe and those who believe and follow Gods’ Word as shown earlier enter into rest through believing and following God’s Word (the gospel rest) and those who believe and follow Gods’ Word enter into God’s rest /My rest/His rest Sabbath rest *Hebrews 4:3-5. The rest of salvation is indeed the Gospel rest that we receive through believing and following God’s Word. Only those who believe and follow Gods’ Word enter into God’s seventh day Sabbath rest as it is a sign that we worship the true God and it is God who sanctifies us. It is pretty clear Hebrews 4 is talking about Gods’ people not entering into God’s Sabbath rest because they did not believe and follow Gods’ Word. They may have outwardly kept the Sabbath but the scripture says they did not enter into God’s rest because or their unbelief and sins.

This also be shown elsewhere in the old testament scriptures as shown here..

Ezekiel 20:19-21[19], I am the Lord your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; [20], and keep holy my Sabbaths [my/God's seventh day rest/ my rest/God's rest]; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God. [21], notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; THEY POLLUTED MY SABBATHS [my/god's seventh day rest/ my rest/god's rest]: THEN I SAID I WOULD POUR OUT MY FURY ON THEM TO ACCOMPLISH MY ANGER ON THEM IN THE WILDERNESS. [22], nevertheless I withdrew my hand, and worked for my name's sake, that it [my sabbath/ my rest/ god's rest] should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight i brought them forth.

Ezekiel 21:12-13 [12], moreover also I gave them MY SABBATHS [my/god's seventh day rest/ my rest], to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.[13], BUT THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL REBELLED AGAINST ME IN THE WILDERNESS: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and MY SABBATHS [my/god's seventh day rest/ my rest] they greatly polluted: THEN I SAID I WILL POUR OUT MY FURY ON THEM IN THE WILDERNESS TO CONSUME THEM.

Isaiah 58:12-14 [12], and they that shall be of you shall build the old waste places: you shall raise up the foundations of many generations; and you shall be called, the repairer of the breach, the restorer of paths to dwell in. [13], if you turn away your foot from the sabbath, from doing your pleasure on MY HOLY DAY [my/god's holy seventh day rest]; and call the sabbath [God's rest/seventh day rest] a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; and shall honor him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words: [14], then shall you delight yourself in the lord; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.

So no dear friend we will agree to disagree here as God's people did not enter into God's rest according to the scriptures because they did not believe and follow Gods' Word but we that do believe (the gospel) enter into God's rest (the Sabbath)

more to come...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,635
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
According to the text it references God finishing His creative work, resting on the seventh day: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.” God's works were finished since then. He was resting. But others did not enter into it. Those in the wilderness did not enter His rest. They did rest on the Sabbath, however, and this is a different rest.
Once again I respectfully disagree with your teachings here. Your argument here is that they rested on the Sabbath. My argument as already shown from the scriptures agree that they may have outwardly kept the Sabbath but they did not enter into Gods’ Sabbath rest that all those enter into through first believing and following Gods’ Word. As shown earlier God’s people in the wilderness did not enter into Gods’ rest because of their sins and unbelief. We do not enter into Gods’ rest unless we first believe and follow Gods’ Word (the gospel rest). Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
The Plutarch reference is contested whether it is original to start with. And you didn't list the others.

Hebrews came before the other four uses referenced in the Anchor Bible dictionary. So is not dependent on these others. Two of the referenced in that work I do not have access to in the Greek, and you have not shown them. However, I did locate two of the references. One is in Justin Martry, and the other is in the Apostolic constitutions. Both are anarthrous as here.

Apostolic Constitutions

Book 2, 36

You shall observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a sabbath rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.

Here as in Hebrews it is describing the character of the rest, and is without the article.

Justin Martyr, ”Dialogue With Trypho” 23

Remain as you were born. For if before Abraham there was no need of circumcision, nor before Moses a sabbath rest, and feasts and sacrifices, neither now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham.

Look a lot of these can be contested if you do not agree with them. So the only truthful reference at the end of the day is the bible. Anything outside of the bible of course is questionable even what you provide here. So what has been provided already to you are the biblical records of sabbatizo that is the verb form of sabbatismos and this clearly shows that it’s only use in the old testament Septuagint is to “sabbath keeping”.

As posted earlier The noun sabbatismos occurs only once in the Greek New Testament. It is derived from verb sabbatizo and was used in the Greek Septuagint to mean, “keep the Sabbath” (Exod. 16:30; Lev. 23:32; 26:34; 2 Chr. 36:21). The Catholic Church eventually came to prohibit “sabbatizing” (same Greek verb), which meant that they outlawed resting on the Sabbath. Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich give the lexical definition for sabbatismos as “Sabbath observance” or the more metaphorical “Sabbath kind of rest.” The first definition comes from the way the word is actually used in early Greek literature.

Notice Gerhard Hasel’s summary of its usage: Hebrews 4:9 states, “There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God” The words “sabbath rest” translate the Gk noun sabbatismos, a unique word in the NT. This term appears also in Plutarch (Superst. 3 [Moralia 166a]) for sabbath observance, and in four post-canonical Christian writings which are not dependent on Hebrews 4:9 (Justin Dial. 23:3; Epiph. Panar. haer. 30, 2.2; Martyrdom of Peter and Paul, chap. 1; Const. Apost. 2.36.2) for seventh-day “sabbath celebration” (Hofius 1970: 103–5). (Gerhard Hasel, Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 5, p. 855)

The metaphorical sense, such as the secondary lexical definition of Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich and the definition in Strong’s Concordance (“a sabbath keeping”), is a theological interpretion of the word rather than what it means in general use by Greek-speaking writers.

Each of the extra-biblical uses of the word in the Anchor Bible listing has to do with literal “sabbath keeping,” which meant resting on the Sabbath

Plutarch, De Superstitione 3.10
“O that our Greeks should found such barbarous rites, as tumbling in mire, rolling themselves in dunghills, keeping of Sabbaths [sabbatismous] monstrous prostrations, long and obstinate sittings in a place, and vile and abject adorations . . .”

Justin, Dialogue with Trypho
23.3 [actually 15] “Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths [sabbatismou], of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now . . .”

Epiphanius, Panarion [“Medicine Chest”] Haereses 30.2.2
“For often in every Sect, when I reached the point, I have explained in connection with Sabbath keeping [sabbatismou], circumcision and the rest, how the Lord has granted us something more perfect.”

Martyrdom of Peter and Paul, chap. 1
“And when thou seest Peter, contend against his teaching, because be has destroyed all the bulwarks of our law; for he has prevented the keeping of Sabbaths [sabbatismos] and new moons, and the holidays appointed by the law. And Paul, answering, said to them: That I am a true Jew, by this you can prove; because also you have been able to keep the Sabbath, and to observe the true circumcision; for assuredly on the day of the Sabbath God rested from all His works. We have fathers, and patriarchs, and the law. What, then, does Peter preach in the kingdom of the Gentiles? But if he shall wish to bring in any new teaching, without any tumult, and envy, and trouble, send him word, that we may see, and in your presence I shall convict him. But if his teaching be true, supported by the book and testimony of the Hebrews, it becomes all of us to submit to him.

Apostolic Constitutions 2.36.2
“Thou shalt observe the Sabbath [sabbatismos], on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.”

Whether pro-Sabbath observance or anti-Sabbath observance, the passages make it clear that
sabbatismos means “sabbath observance” and not just a “sabbath-like rest.”

Hope this is helpful
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,635
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Incorrect, because "a sabbath rest" is connected to the today rest that Joshua did not give them, but is still available. The Sabbath is not a "today" rest. And they were keeping the Sabbath in Joshua's time and in the wilderness. 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Incorrect because the main contexts are established much earlier starting in Hebrews 3:11-12; 17-19; Hebrews 4:1-3; 5-6 agreeing also with Hebrews 4:7-8 showing that those who did not believe and follow Gods Word (the gospel) did not enter into God’s Sabbath rest while those who do believe and follow Gods’ Word (the gospel) enter into God’s rest (the Sabbath). Gods’ rest/My rest/ His rest is already defined as the seventh day Sabbath rest from the foundation of the world in Hebrews 4:3-4 which is a reference to Genesis 2:1-3 (the making of God’s seventh day Sabbath rest).
LoveGodsWord wrote: Now back to sabbatismos. Now if your definition is the only correct version (which I believe is not), it would make no sense in using the Greek word σαββατισμός in verse 9. Why not just use κατάπαυσις σάββατον in the Greek rather than σαββατισμός? This would be more consistent with the rest of the chapters use of κατάπαυσις in Hebrews 4:1; 3; 4; 8; 10 but it doesn't.
Your response here…
Because it is entering into the rest of God from His works which continued on since the 7th day, but which those who kept the Sabbath in the wilderness and in Joshua's day did not enter. It is resting from our works as He did from His. The rest is stated to not have been entered into by those in the wilderness and in the time of Joshua, and they did rest on the weekly sabbath. The sabbath rest here is defined as still available "today" and is a rest from our own works. 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
I read this quite a few times to try and make sense of it. Perhaps you were tired? It does not make sense to me as a response to what I was asking you. Κατάπαυσις is used in Hebrews 4:8 that you are quoting here not σαββατισμός. Your response here also disagreeing with our rest and God’s rest already defined in Hebrews 4:1-5.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,649
6,088
Visit site
✟1,033,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Once again as posted earlier your arguing with yourself here as I have never made any arguments that sabbatismos does not mean "a sabbath rest" and have already said it does. It also means "a sabbath observance" or "a keeping of a sabbath through resting" already shown through the Greek and earlier translations "a keeping of the Sabbath" (Aramaic and Lasma) and the Historical use of sabbatizo in the Septuagint.

As posted earlier it makes no difference to me what translation is used here


I am not arguing against myself. I am arguing against your statements such as this:

Do you now agree that sabbatismos has application of keeping the sabbath through resting?

It is incorrect to say keeping "the" sabbath.


We noted in the LXX that the usage of the verb applied not just to the weekly Sabbath. The same is true of the adaptation as a noun. It is just the idea of a sabbath rest, without reference to which sabbath.

The comment you quoted earlier in your mashup of Sabbatismos discussions:

In Greek the article is never attached to the noun or adjective. In this form it often coincide with the vocative case but for these nouns (sabbatismos) it's an exception and is nominative without article. When found in this form it implies an indefinite article but not a number

When he says that the article is never attached, that is what you are trying to do when you say "keep the sabbath", because you are supplying an article "the" to indicate a definite sabbath, that is not there.

The word is the verb being adapted as a noun, as you indicated. This is similar to Baptismos and baptizein. Baptismos is a baptism. Baptizein is to baptize. If you added an article you would have the baptism.

However, with your phrasing you are doing something different. Sabbatismos with the article would be "the keeping of a sabbath rest", not "keeping the sabbath rest". There is no way to force the article further into the phrase. This is because, like the verb form, it can refer to different types of sabbaths. And we will see this in the usage.

The usage in Hebrews is anarthrous.

We already looked at Justin Martyr and the Apostolic Constitutions.
I have now located the additional ones.

Plutarch:


View attachment 298160
“O that our Greeks should found such barbarous rites, as tumbling in mire, rolling themselves in dunghills, keeping of Sabbaths [sabbatismous] monstrous prostrations, long and obstinate sittings in a place, and vile and abject adorations


The use is again anarthrous. And the translation for sabbatismos is fine, but you could also just render it "sabbath rests". But this is a plural, and has no indication that it is limited to the seventh-day Sabbath at all. It could apply to any or all the various Sabbath keepings.


Epiphanius:

upload_2021-4-26_12-35-18.png


Sabbath observance, circumcision, and all other Jewish and Samaritan observances

Again an anarthrous use.

Martyrdom of Peter and Paul:
upload_2021-4-26_12-46-33.png


Now here we have a different usage, with the article. And note how the translation you posted renders it:

because be has destroyed all the bulwarks of our law; for he has prevented the keeping of Sabbaths [sabbatismos] and new moons

This is an example of what I mentioned earlier. Even if you have an article it doesn't make it "the keeping of the sabbath". It makes it "the keeping of a sabbath". The later context does spell out the weekly sabbath is at least included. But there is nothing inherent in the word itself that indicates the weekly, even with the article. Because the nature of the noun form is "a sabbath."
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,646
3,904
✟379,971.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
BobRyan said:
The "new way" is same one that enabled Moses and Elijah to stand in glory with Christ in Matt 17 - before the cross. Jeremiah calls it "the New Covenant" as does Paul in Heb 8:6-12. The "one gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 in both OT and NT by which all are saved or lost if they reject it.

But editing The Commandments of God - was never an option.



The "Sabbath" doctrine has two simple components.

1. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral Law of God that defines what sin IS AND is applicable to all mankind even in the NT.
2. The Sabbath commandment cannot be "edited" by Tradition.

almost ALL of the back-and-forth arguments are on easy-simple-part 1 where Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic, in almost all major denomination - AGREE.

So then when it comes to the "easy part" the Catholic Church is also a good example of a denomination that accepts the Bible details in that particular aspect of this discussion. (as I will also show below). Your post deals with second part of the subject as noted above.

My point recently says that if you look at 12 pages of discussion so far 99.99% of it is opposing the SDA and Sabbath groups - arguing that the first statement about affirming "all TEN being still in place for all mankind" - is the main point of difference. As your comment shows - this is NOT a problem for the Catholic Church scholars - they don't deny "the TEN" still being for all mankind. (Your post focuses only on the second point of the topic)

Yet how "odd" that it is only the SDA and Sabbath keeping groups that are defending that "all TEN" point on this thread
The early church in both the east and west consistently taught that the ten commandments were obligatory, singling them out as such from the moral code of the Old Covenant. But that they were truly fulfillable only by the Holy Spirit, the New Covenant way, the right way of approaching the law: by the Spirit and not the letter having inherited the practice of observance of Sunday as the important day for Christians and considering that practice to be consistent with the law regarding sabbath. So the catechism continues:

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108 [St. Ignatius of Antioch]

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0