tall73

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There I go again pointing out that bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate (those who keep the Bible 7th day Sabbath vs those who keep Sunday) in almost all Christian denominations admit to theses key Bible details about the TEN Commandments.

On the VERY points where you try to re-imagine it as "JUST SDAs".

No Bob, I never said just SDA's hold that view. I said there are more than two positions.

And you will never win over someone of the other position by arguing against a position they don't hold.


I will admit - my point is not doing anything at all "FOR" your view - I don't see how it helps your view at all.

You don't see how going with most Bible Scholars sinks Adventists who stake their whole identity on going against what most Bible scholars think?
 
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tall73

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Once again if you were reading my post to you I have never denied that the word does not mean Sabbath rest.

I was reading your post. I even highlighted all the places it mentioned that.

I have only stated it also means a keeping of the Sabbath through resting and that the literal meaning and stated that your only telling half the story.

Do you know what an article is?
 
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BobRyan

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It is a listing of all the appointed times, which includes the Sabbath, and is seen by the parallel text in Ezekiel 45.


Col 2 does not condemn any Bible practice at all - rather condemns two things specifically

Colossians 2 makes two key points.

1. It is against false teachers "making stuff up" vs the real - pure doctrine of the Gospel.
2. It is promoting the Matthew 7 pre-cross principle “Judge not that you be not judged”

Notice that the issue of “Making stuff up” was a problem addressed before the cross as well --
Mark 2:23-28 - making stuff up about 7th day Sabbath keeping
Mark 7:6-13 - making stuff up that contradicts the Commandments of God.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using
C:\Users\Zoom3\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif
after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

And Col 2 is not a quote of Ezek 45 nor does it condemn any practice in Ezek 45.

Ezek 45
17 And it shall be the prince’s part to provide the
  • burnt offerings,
  • the grain offerings,
  • and the drink offerings,
  • at the feasts,
  • on the new moons,
  • and on the Sabbaths,
at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel;

he shall provide
  • the sin offering,
  • the grain offering,
  • the burnt offering,
  • and the peace offerings,
to make atonement for the house of Israel.”


That is not quoted in Col 2

Matt 7 - "Judge not that you be not judged" - a pre-cross rule UNCHANGED in the NT

Col 2
16 Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to
food and drink
,
or in respect to a festival
or a new moon,
or a Sabbath day—

Col 2 does not condemn food
Col 2 does not condemn drink
Col 2 does not condemn new moon
Col 2 does not condemn a (shadow) Sabbath day

17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

18 Take care that no one keeps defrauding you of your prize by delighting in
  • humility
  • and the worship of the angels,
  • taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding firmly to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man?


=======================

And the judging part doesn't help you. It calls all of them shadows, which is why judging is pointless.

It is the SAME as the pre-cross "judge not that you be not judged" Matt 7 - no change at all pre-cross to post-cross in that regard.

Which does not help your argument.
 
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tall73

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It is the SAME as the pre-cross "judge not that you be not judged" Matt 7 - no change at all pre-cross to post-cross in that regard.

The fact that they are shadows is the only argument needed. The whole chapter is focused on the sufficiency of Christ compared to other things people focus on. Shadows are not the reality.

And of course you treat all those other things as shadows.
 
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BobRyan

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Both are listings of the appointed times.

  • Ezek 45 does not claim anything it lists is "a commandment of men" or "made up by his fleshly mind".
  • When Col 2 points to actual approved Bible holy times it merely says "do not judge" as does Christ in Matt 7 - no change pre-cross vs post-cross.
Bible scholars in all major Christian denominations on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit that this does nothing to "downsize the TEN" - it is NOT just an SDA or just Bible-Sabbath keeping group that sees this easy Bible detail.

It is scholarship on BOTH sides that admits to it.
 
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tall73

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  • Ezek 45 does not claim anything it lists is "a commandment of men" or "made up by his fleshly mind".
  • When Col 2 points to actual approved Bible holy times it merely says "do not judge" as does Christ in Matt 7 - no change pre-cross vs post-cross.

Shadows Bob. Just ask @LoveGodsWord. He would be happy to tell you all about shadow laws.
 
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BobRyan

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Shadows Bob. Just ask @LoveGodsWord. He would be happy to tell you all about shadow laws.

I am more than happy to agree that the shadows end at the cross as Heb 10:4-12 points out - but I never use Col 2 for that because it is only condemns two things
1. the judging
2. and the "making stuff up"

And guess what -- the bible scholars on BOTH sides of this debate can easily agree to those two points as well because they do nothing at all to "downsize" the TEN.
 
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tall73

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I am more than happy to agree that the shadows end at the cross as Heb 10:4-12 points out - but I never use Col 2 for that because it is only condemns two things
1. the judging
2. and the "making stuff up"

It lists all of them as shadows.
 
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BobRyan

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Yeah Bob, that is like saying "both" sides of a triangle are the same length.

There are more than two views.

My "Both sides" regarding Bible scholars in almost ALL Christian denominations

Has SDAs and ALL Bible Sabbath groups keeping the 7th day Sabbath on one side

And has groups like this on the other --

Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19.
Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19
D.L. Moody on the 4th commandment.
Dies Domini (Pope John Paul II)
R.C Sproul
C.H. Spurgeon
Eastern Orhtodox
Catholic Church
Martin Luther
etc.

  • I claim that Bible scholars in BOTH of these groups agree on certain Bible details soooo obvious that scholars in both groups will admit to them.
  • I claim this Both-sides-agree fact is very helpful in establishing an objective measure for when a Bible detail is really really really easy to see and not merely a figment of bias or preference.
===============

you suggest a "third" group composed of...

Tall73 and ???
 
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BobRyan

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It lists all of them as shadows.

Not the weekly Sabbath - it was given in Eden before the fall and did not point to "the death" of anyone. Another super easy bible detail that both of those two opposing sides can admit to.
 
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tall73

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My "Both sides" regarding Bible scholars in almost ALL Christian denominations

Bob do you know any doctrine that almost ALL Christian denominations don't believe a word of? (Adventist Sanctuary doctrine).

Has SDAs and ALL Bible Sabbath groups keeping the 7th day Sabbath on one side

And has groups like this on the other --

Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19.
Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19
D.L. Moody on the 4th commandment.
Dies Domini (Pope John Paul II)
R.C Sproul
C.H. Spurgeon
Eastern Orhtodox
Catholic Church
Martin Luther
etc.

I claim that Bible scholars in BOTH of these groups agree on certain Bible details soooo obvious that scholars in both groups will admit to them. I claim this is very helpful in establishing an objective measure for when a Bible detail is really really really easy to see and not merely a figment of bias or preference.
===============

you suggest a "third" group composed of...

Tall73 and ???

The various people who hold that the Sabbath is done away with, but do not go on to say that Sunday is a new Sabbath.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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What does the article or lack of article mean?

The post below is a collection from different sources over time before coming here and not completely my work and part of my old notes when researching sabbatismos and historical use. I have tried to add as much of the sources as possible.

.............
https://linguistics.stackexchange.c...ogy-of-the-greek-word-σαββατισμός-sabbatismos
"Sabbat-ismos "sabbathism, sabbathisation, sabbathising" are deverbal nouns, arising from the verb sabbatizo "to act in a way associated with the/a Sabbath", i.e. "to observe the Sabbath". Ancient Greek nouns could be definite or indefinite in the absence of an explicit definite article: the definite article develops only gradually in ancient Greek, and even in Koine there are contexts where Greek does not use a definite article and English would. But without a definite article, the default assumption would be indefinite.

In Greek the article is never attached to the noun or adjective. In this form it often coincide with the vocative case but for these nouns (sabbatismos) it's an exception and is nominative without article. When found in this form it implies an indefinite article but not a number (that is in English it would be a but not one since in Greece it's just one word therefore the literal definition of sabbatismos is to the keeping of the Sabbath.

So would it be the equivalent of a deverbal noun or gerund in English? Would it be "keeping the Sabbath" Yes! because the meaning is already around in ancient Greek preceding it's use which we will discuss next. (because the underlying verb suffix means "act in a matter associated with", and can mean "be a partisan of"). The point of the noun suffix is to make the verb into an action noun." (Stack Exchange)

Lets look at a few more references and use it's historical uses.

The translation for "Keeping Sabbath" comes from the Greek word that is used in Hebrews 4:9, σαββατισμός, pronounced sabbatismos, which is a noun form that means Sabbath rest, Sabbath (keeping) observance (Arndt and Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament).

This definition of the Greek word σαββατισμός sabbatismos is confirmed by other historical works: The words 'keeping sabbath' or sabbath rest is translated from the GK noun sabbatismos, [and is] a unique word in the NT.

This term appears also in Plutarch (Superset. 3 [Moralia 166a]) for sabbath observance or keeping, and in four post-canonical Christian writings which are not dependent on Heb. 4:9 (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 5, p. 856).

The Greek word, σαββατισμός sabbatismos, is a noun. The verb form of the word is σαββατίζω sabbatizo, which means to keep the Sabbath (Arndt and Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament).

This definition of σαββατίζω Sabbatizo is confirmed by its use in the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament which dates from third century BC. It is called the Septuagint, meaning Seventy because the first five books were translated by seventy scholars who were Greek-speaking Jews in Alexandria, Egypt. Jews used the Septuagint in synagogues throughout the Roman empire, and by the Greek-speaking Jewish and Gentile coverts in the early New Testament church. The apostle Paul quotes extensively from the Septuagint in his epistle to the Hebrews. When Paul used the Greek word σαββατισμός sabbatismos in Hebrews 4:9, he knew that the meaning of this word was well known to the Greek-speaking believers of that day. The verb form σαββατίζω, sabbatizo was used in the Septuagint which was as familiar to the Greek-speaking Jews and Gentiles of New Testament times as the King James Bible is to Christians today.

The use of the verb σαββατίζω sabbatizo in Leviticus 23:32 in the Septuagint leaves no room to mistake its meaning. The Greek English Lexicon of the Septuagint defines σαββατίζω sabbatizo as to keep sabbath, to rest (Lust, Eynikel, Hauspie). The English translation of this verse in the Septuagint reads: It [the Day of Atonement] shall be a holy sabbath [literally, a Sabbath of Sabbaths] to you; and ye shall humble your souls, from the ninth day of the month: from evening to evening shall ye keep your sabbaths (The Septuagint With the Apocrypha, Brenton).

The phrase shall ye keep your sabbaths is translated from the Greek phrase σαββατιείτε τα σάββατα sabbatieite ta sabbata, which literally means, You shall sabbathize the Sabbaths. The form of the Greek verb σαββατίζω sabbatizo is the second person plural σαββατιείτε sabbatieite, which means, ye shall keep. Since the verb sabbathize, means to keep the Sabbath, this verb is a special verb that also relates to and defines Sabbath-keeping, for God’s command for the land Sabbath every seven years. In the entire Septuagint, the verb σαββατίζω sabbatizo is never used to define the keeping of anything else. Rather, it is always used in relation to Sabbath-keeping and Sabbath-keeping only. In keeping with this definition, the KJV translates σαββατιείτε sabbatieite, this way: shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

There is no question that the Greek verb σαββατίζω sabbatizo in Leviticus 23:32 is specifically referring to Sabbath observance. This meaning applies equally to the noun form σαββατισμός sabbatismos, which we find in Paul’s epistle to Hebrews. The fact that Paul used the Septuagint translation in this epistle confirms that the meaning word σαββατισμός sabbatismos, in Hebrews 4:9, is in complete accord with the meaning of σαββατιείτε τα σάββατα sabbatieite ta sabbata, in Leviticus 23:32. Clearly Paul is upholding the observance of the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week in Hebrews 4:9.

Hope this is helpful
 
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tall73

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Not the weekly Sabbath - it was given in Eden before the fall and did not point to "the death" of anyone. Another super easy bible detail that both of those two opposing sides can admit to.

It was given in Exodus 16, and no human is seen keeping it before. It is a sign of santification, creation and redemption, and involved sacrifices. But more than that, the passage is a listing of all the appointed times, and that includes the weekly Sabbath.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Did you copy a string of comments on stack exchange?
Everything provided was collected some time ago in that previous post way before this thread started. It is from many different sources including Stock exchange when researching sabbatismos. The whole article is not from there though just a few sections as it is a compilation of an older study from different sources strung together for my own use. Why? Are you trying to make it all about something else now and not the meaning of the word Sabbatismos? Which means a keeping of the Sabbath by resting.
 
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