About Sabbath

[BobRyan]

I have a really easy solution for you - take a look at where BOTH sides agree.

Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19.
Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19
D.L. Moody on the 4th commandment.
Dies Domini (Pope John Paul II)
R.C Sproul
C.H. Spurgeon
etc.

ALL of them agree with the SDA church and other Sabbath keeping groups -- on these key points.

1. All TEN of the TEN commandments were given as the moral law of God in Eden - to mankind
2. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the Law of God that is written on the heart under the new Covenant.
3. The Sabbath commandment as given by God in scripture - points to Saturday - not Sunday.
4. The TEN Commandments are not in opposition to grace or the Gospel
5. all of mankind are still to this very day held to accountability by the TEN
6. The TEN are not - "just for Jews".

When scholarship on BOTH sides look at the Bible and AGREE on these key details then it is a pretty good option .. take this as the starting point and then work through the differences that remain.

Essentially given all that common ground - the Sabbath keeping POV is "God's Word cannot be edited ... not even by tradition"... and that is the crux of where all the differences reside when it comes to Sabbath keeping vs the position taken by those groups I listed.

Someone comments later on in this thread as follows



Which highlights the point I just made above.

So getting to the "easy part" of these Bible details -- where BOTH sides agree - is starting at "square 1".

When you find someone arguing for a solution that does not even make it to "square 1" -- the chances of success are less than optimal.

===============================

Having said that - some more easy things to look at are:

1. Romans 14 does not mention the 7th Sabbath at all in the entire chapter.
"one man observes one day above another while another man observes them all... he who observes the day observes it or the Lord"

2. A careful reading of Col 2 - shows that it also does not mention the 7th day Sabbath - it only refers to the "Shadow" Sabbaths of Lev 23 - the annual feast days. Holy days in the Bible.

3. Gal 4:9-11 only references pagan holy days that the former-pagan gentiles in Gal 4 "were returning to" after becoming Christians. The observance of even one of them was condemned by Paul in Gal 4 --- as contrasted to the defense of all the Bible holy days defended by Paul in Rom 14.

4. Gal 5:1-5 is not condemning the Bible. So then it is still a sin to "take God's name in vain" for example. Gal 5 is condemning the "made up tradition" of gentiles required to be circumcised to be saved... and the idea that a lost person could "earn salvation" by not taking God's name in vain - without accepting the Gospel and being born again.


And as for the bonus text making it all very very easy

Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth: "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

Mark 2:27 "Sabbath made for mankind"
Is 56:6 - Gentiles singled out for Sabbath keeping.
Acts 18:4 gospel preaching for both gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath"

(There is only "one Gospel" -- Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel "was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 which is why in your OP that Matt 17 text shows both Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glory - before the cross... because there is only one Gospel and it was in the OT as well as NT. Same is true for New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 as well as Heb 8:6-12)

===================

Here I appeal to agreement between Christian groups on both sides of the Sabbath topic discussion.

As a new Christian many years ago, I remember being around groups that viewed their denomination (Local Church) as having a lock on all scriptural truth with their special prophet and viewed all others as being false churches. After hearing enough of that my gut reaction was: Run Away!

Which would be an odd response to my post...

oh no wait... you are responding to this post --

Why would you hang your hat on what those false churches say or do?

Which was sort of a mock response to my post.

 

[BobRyan]

You don't have to keep the sabbath in order to be saved. End of matter. Nothing else to say.

You also don't "not take God's name in vain" as a way to get to heaven without having to accept the Gospel.

This thread is not about "how can you get to heaven without accepting the Gospel", that is not the title of the thread.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes definitely.




When I turned into a Christian, everything was "easy". I mean, I thought it was all about loving, accepting and believing in Jesus and God, loving your neighbor (which branches out into everything else) and not committing the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21), etc.

But there are so many more things. I'm getting anxious about this everyday since I wake up until late night when I sleep. I keep questioning myself about 90% of what I do during the day, if I can watch movies, play games, watch series, read books, listening to music and more recently this subject about Sabbath. I'm so afraid of going to hell because all of it.

Looks like how much more I dive into learning religions, faiths, Christianism, the more lost I get on what should I do or shouldn't.



Just like someone said in one of the replies above, Jesus asked His Father that we could be one. But what is the Truth, the place where we can reunite as one? There are so many "ones" around the world. How can one born in this world discover the correct denomination in an ocean of hundreds, maybe thousands of them?

Don't get me wrong, no matter what happens I'll still believe in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit and Bible and still love them.

While I'm writing this, I'm constantly thinking that the more deep I dive and try to learn Christianism, faith... the more I think it's a minefield. If I do one slip, one misstep and choose the wrong "followings", I'm eternally condemned to hell. Even if I love and believe in Jesus and God with all my heart, try my best to be a good person to others, if I end up following the wrong one in this ocean I'm doomed.

I just ask one thing to God in the name of Jesus with my whole heart: have mercy on me if I don't follow the correct one. Please. Your Son wanted us to be one, but in my times there are so many "ones". Don't send me to hell for it, please. At least I can ensure that I believe in You the creator, Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, the Holy Spirit and the Bible.

Jesus said "if you Love Me keep My Commandments" John 14:15
Jesus said "the Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27

In Matt 19 Jesus said "keep THE Commandments"
Jesus was asked "which ones" in Matt 19 - and quote from the OT list - out of the TEN.

The Bible says the commandments of God applicable to the saints include that law that has the 5th commandment "as the first commandment with a promise". Eph 6:2 ... that is Paul speaking in the NT

Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" -- again that is new Testament (NT) - Paul.

And this part of the discussion is soooo easy and obvious that "both sides" admit to it among Bible scholars in almost all major denominations

=====================

What is making this "easy part" difficult for you here on this thread - is that both side on "this thread" are not in agreement on that "easy part".

Don't try to chew the entire elephant in one bite - take it one step at a time - starting with the first easy step. All the differences will begin to sort themselves out after that.

Then go back and review your findings - ask questions - dig in a little deeper.

 

[ewq1938]

In Matt 19 Jesus said "keep THE Commandments"
Jesus was asked "which ones" in Matt 19 - and quote from the OT list - out of the TEN.

He did not mention the Sabbath commandment.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

He listed 6 out of the 10.

 

[BobRyan]

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love because he first loved us. Sure, I love this passage. It is one of my favorites in the entire Bible.

Sure, I love this passage. It is one of my favorites in the entire Bible.

But if salvation and going to Heaven was only it on this passage, we would not have hundreds, thousands differents denominations that follow different things. For example, in SDA point of view, every single denomination that don't follow Sabbath is condemned eternally to hell

Which is not true. Adventists don't teach that.

Someone here who claims he is not an Adventist - posted it.

That is why I said early on that you should ask Adventists that are actually here to say what they believe. You are getting bits of half-the-story in some cases when you see posts from self-proclaimed non-SDAs saying what they want you to believe that SDAs teach.

The Bible says "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17 - and that is the same thing that Adventist teach. I posted a private conversation video to you showing an amazing story of how God reaches people with absolutely no information at all and then over time gives them more and more information)

( we also teach Matt 10:28 "fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" as opposed to the somewhat imagined "fear Him who will keep you alive and in torment for all eternity in fiery hell"

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
In Matt 19 Jesus said "keep THE Commandments"
Jesus was asked "which ones" in Matt 19 - and quote from the OT list - out of the TEN.

He did not mention the Sabbath commandment.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

He listed 6 out of the 10.

True - He did not list "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
He did not list "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 in his Matt 19 list

And He also did not say that the list of commands He gave were the only part of scripture to pay attention to. (He seemed to focus on those things the questioner needed to hear at the time)

The point is that He showed no tendency at all to say "ignore all TEN we are replacing them with something else"

Then in Matt 28:19-20 "Go teach all nations all the things I taught you "

 

[tall73]

For Colossians the context around the passage seems to deal with the sufficiency of Christ, and things that are not of Christ, but human origin, that could distract from Christ.

Col 2:1 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face,
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ,
Col 2:3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Col 2:4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments.
Col 2:5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

In Christ are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. In contrast, he warns against philosophy which is based on human tradition:

Col 2:6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
Col 2:7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
Col 2:10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

At the end of the chapter he lists other things that are not of Christ, and can distract.

Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—
Col 2:21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”
Col 2:22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings?
Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

So there is a contrast between Christ and other things which are men, and insufficient.

In the middle section we find discussion of circumcision (but not physical, putting off the sinful nature), baptism, forgiveness of trespasses, cancelling of the record of debt, disarming the rulers and authorities, etc.

Col 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Controversy over physical circumcision misses the point that in Christ those who have been baptized have been buried with Him, and are raised to new life. We received spiritual circumcision, the putting off of the flesh/sinful nature.

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

God gives us a new life in Him and has forgiven us all our trespasses.

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.


There are various views on this portion, which forms the immediate context of the text in question. Much of it centers around what is meant by the "handwriting of requirements".

Some versions translate this certificate of debt as the handwritten note of bond is often indicated by the word rendered here 'handwriting'. So in this idea a hand written note of debt with requirements to repay written in ordinances was taken away nailing it to the cross. In his view it is our debt to sin, or record of the debt to sin which would result in death, but Jesus paid that death. Therefore this sees the verse before "having forgiven us all our trespasses" as being restated again as the record of debt to sin that we we owed was taken away, nailed to the cross. Jesus was literally nailed to the cross and became sin for us, per 2 Corinthians:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So in this view He would be seen as removing the record of debt by paying it with His life.

Others see the phrase handwriting of ordinances to refer to the handwritten book of the law, and therefore having reference to the requirements regarding the ceremonial laws that pointed to Jesus' work on the cross (Passover, Day of Atonement, etc.) They would generally exclude the Sabbath in this argument by noting that it was written in stone, not in the book of the law. Though others would note that the Sabbath was also included in the book of the law. In this view this links to the list of items under consideration.

The reference to principalities can be taken a number of ways, but the most common I have seen is a reference to the power of sin and death.

That brings us to the passage itself.

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

BobRyan said: ↑
In Matt 19 Jesus said "keep THE Commandments"
Jesus was asked "which ones" in Matt 19 - and quote from the OT list - out of the TEN.



True - He did not list "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
He did not list "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 in his Matt 19 list

And He also did not say that the list He gave were the only part of scripture to pay attention to.

He was asked which commandments needed to be followed to earn eternal life and he answered with 6. Do you agree that keeping the Sabbath was not needed at that time to earn eternal life?

 

[fatherforgivethem]

The Bible says "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17 - and that is the same thing that Adventist teach.

So... that means whoever knows about the Sabbath and don't think it is applied to us Christians, are going to hell... even if they do love Jesus and God with all their heart and believe in Him as his Lord and Saviour. Right?

 

[BobRyan]

So... that means whoever knows about the Sabbath and don't think it is applied to us Christians, are going to hell... even if they do love Jesus and God with all their heart and believe in Him as his Lord and Saviour. Right?

No. Simply knowing that there is such a thing does not mean that the person knows it is Bible truth. IF they suspect it might be truth then they are responsible to "check it out". But the Holy Spirit certainly knows if He has brought that information to the person's attention or not - and whether they are accountable. God cannot be "snookered" into not knowing.

The Bible says "God is not mocked" Gal 6:7. So you can't play games with him -- but you can always be up front and honest with Him.

In my opinion - if you actually read your own thread (this one) you have a lot of information on this subject.

Jesus said "if you were blind you would have no sin. you say that you see - your sin remains" John 9:41

And in 2Thess 2:10 - God's Word says that in the end some people perish "because they did not receive a love of the truth so as to be saved".

Jesus "IS" the "Way the Truth and the Life" John 14.

To meet Jesus and Love Him - is to "Love the Truth" and a love of the Truth does not say "I have had enough I am done with knowing more truth".

God is not unreasonable. He is not sending you the Holy Spirit and the Angels of heaven to trip you up or make you fail. They come to you - to make you successful. But they "deal in TRUTH" not fables not fiction not popular stories. And I think everyone here pretty much agrees on this last point.

That video I posted to you has a point where the lady was asked "what do you want?" and she said "I want to know the Truth, the real Truth" . Notice that Jesus came to her in a remarkable way shortly after that - HE IS the way the Truth and the Life.

BTW - have you been to this web site?
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2 - New American Standard Bible

It is a great place for looking up Bible texts and comparing them

 

[BobRyan]

He was asked which commandments needed to be followed to earn eternal life and he answered with 6. Do you agree that keeping the Sabbath was not needed at that time to earn eternal life?

No more than "do not take God's name in vain" and "Love God with all your heart" that were also not mentioned - as well as "Have no other gods before Me" not mentioned..

God never says "If you want to EARN eternal life - then do not murder" - that is the sort of statement you are using

 

[tall73]

Colossians 2, part 2:

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.


Let no one pass judgment has been taken several ways. Are they being judged for observing? For not observing? For how they are observing? Are they adding things not in the Scriptures?

Food and drink some see this as a reference to food restrictions such as unclean food laws, or regulations about straining gnats. Some think it is talking about fasting. Some think it is talking about food and drink offerings. I tend to favor the latter view just because of the connection to appointed times which are associated with food and drink offerings.

With regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. This is a list of times. Various theories have been put forth to explain the types of times. While the others are singular the Sabbath is plural, but it is a neuter and so at times the neuter plural in Greek can stand for the singular, adding an additional layer of detail. Because of this, in some texts we see the plural of sabbath in the Greek being used of a single Sabbath day. So plural or singular doesn't help much. And in this case even "a feast" is including any type of feast, so while it is singular, it comprehends the notion more than one feast.

Bacchiocchi, an Adventist scholar, took the non-traditional view among SDA that it was referring to yearly festival, monthly new moons, and daily sabbaths. So he, unlike most Adventists, thought it included the weekly Sabbath. However, I don't think that is overly convincing, in that the new moon happens monthly, but is still a day.

Most Adventists think that the sabbaths referenced are yearly sabbaths such as the Day of Atonement, trumpets, etc.

The most developed version of the Adventist view I have seen put forward was by two Adventists, Ron Du Preez, and D.J. Conklin (who at least formerly posted on Chrsitian Forums but also ran a website with the material in question) which notes that the term feast in this case is in reference to the pilgrim feasts, correlating with the word "chag" in Hebrew. Some of the yearly appointed times were not feasts but solemn assemblies, so they would not be included here, but in the Sabbaths. This would include the trumpets, Day of Atonement, etc. They are appointed times, but not "chag" or feasts.

Now Du Preez and Conklin would not see the weekly Sabbath as included here.

However, as I noted earlier, this listing is the same as listings of appointed times and their food and drink offerings seen in other passages in the Old Testament. So to exclude the weekly Sabbath, which is also an appointed time, and also listed, doesn't make sense. It was clearly a Sabbath, and clearly an appointed time.

So you can read about it in Numbers 28 in the listing of the offerings for the appointed times. And we see it in short form, more similar to Colossians 2, in Ezekiel 45:

Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed times of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

In this case we know the summary statement includes the weekly Sabbath because he goes on through the rest of the chapter and the next to elaborate:

Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze 46:2 The prince shall enter by the vestibule of the gate from outside, and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.
Eze 46:4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish.
Eze 46:5 And the grain offering with the ram shall be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs shall be as much as he is able, together with a hin of oil to each ephah.
Eze 46:6 On the day of the new moon he shall offer a bull from the herd without blemish, and six lambs and a ram, which shall be without blemish.

So some views see it as including the weekly Sabbath, and others do not. Personally I see the listing of the appointed times as including all the appointed times, of which the Sabbath is a part.

 

[ewq1938]

No more than "do not take God's name in vain" and "Love God with all your heart" that were also not mentioned - as well as "Have no other gods before Me" not mentioned..

God never says "If you want to EARN eternal life - then do not murder" - that is the sort of statement you are using

Does this mean you do believe the Sabbath must be kept in order to receive eternal life?

 

[BobRyan]

Does this mean you do believe the Sabbath must be kept in order to receive eternal life?

Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 in your view - was Paul wrong?

John said "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 - was John wrong in your POV?

Paul said that the Law of God - the unit of TEN with the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 being the 5th commandment "honor your father and mother" - is still applicable to the saints in the NT - do you think Paul was wrong? (BTW this is the point where Bible scholars on both sides of this topic in almost all major denominations -- do agree about the TEN)

Or do you agree that what a person happens to know about what the Commandments of God are - might differ from person to person even when both people are actively seeking to know more real Bible truth?

No matter who we are , or at what point we are, the Holy Spirit seeks to give us more light. "When HE the Spirit of Truth comes - He will guide you into all truth" John 16 - that is part of His work - as well as "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness AND judgment" John 16.

 

[tall73]

Colossians 2, part 3

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Here we need to examine the closely related verse 17. The things listed in verse 16 are said to be shadows. This recalls Hebrews 10:

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

So the things mentioned are a shadow, and the shadow relates to a reality that is greater than the shadow.

Now a few notes. First of all it says a shadow of things to come. Some indicate that this is referring to the fact that when written the things had not happened yet. Others argue that some of them still had not happened yet in full (the fulfillment of some aspects of salvation history pointed to in the shadow).

The last part of the verse, translated literally but the body of Christ also has two explanations put forward by some. The first is that the things in the list are shadows, but the body is of Christ, who casts the shadow. In other words, they point to Christ and His work. The second interpretation connects this way back to the beginning of verse 16 and reads it as "Let no man therefore judge you....but the body of Christ", with the meaning that it is the church that judges what is proper for these days. This I think is a minority position.

Now the larger issue of the shadows is that some would contend that it refers to those things that pointed to ceremonial sacrificial laws, but that would not include the Sabbath, which is a memorial looking back to creation.

However, one of the ceremonial laws which was a sign (circumcision) is fulfilled spiritually, and some would see the Sabbath also as a shadow, as a sign given to Israel not only regarding creation, but also to redemption from Egypt in Deuteronomy 5, and as a sign with Israel of the Lord who sanctifies them in Exodus 31. They also note that it is included in the appointed times, with related food and drink offerings.

That sets the stage for our next text, Hebrews 4, which Adventists and some others see as a command for continued Sabbath observance, and some who disagree see as a spiritual application of the Sabbath in the new covenant, but not literal Sabbath-keeping.

 

[ewq1938]

Can you please answer the question directly? I am curious to know the SDA position on that and I'd rather hear it from you than have to do ask it at a SDA forum.

Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 in your view - was Paul wrong?

John said "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 - was John wrong in your POV?

Paul said that the Law of God - the unit of TEN with the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 being the 5th commandment "honor your father and mother" - is still applicable to the saints in the NT - do you think Paul was wrong? (BTW this is the point where Bible scholars on both sides of this topic in almost all major denominations -- do agree about the TEN)

Or do you agree that what a person happens to know about what the Commandments of God are - might differ from person to person even when both people are actively seeking to know more real Bible truth?

No matter who we are , or at what point we are, the Holy Spirit seeks to give us more light. "When HE the Spirit of Truth comes - He will guide you into all truth" John 16 - that is part of His work - as well as "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness AND judgment" John 16.

 

[tall73]

Had to edit to add to the end of part 3 so if you read it already, try refreshing.

 

[tall73]

Now to pull a few things together. I mentioned that part of the question is what they are being judged over. Are they judged for keeping, not keeping, man-made additions, etc.

But part of that is clarified by the shadow discussion, so that may be even more important. If those things in the list are a shadow, then there is no basis for judging anyway because the reality of Christ is the point, not the shadow.

 

[fatherforgivethem]

there is no basis for judging anyway because the reality of Christ is the point, not the shadow.

I've read it on both english and on my main language and got this understandment. I think I'll stick with it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm a new Christian. There is 5 months or something since I started 'truly' following Jesus and God, obeying Him, learning, etc. Everything is going well, I'm learning so much. But now, looks like everything is running out of my control, I don't know what to do or to follow anymore, if I should do X or no, if I should follow Y or no.
Only one thing remains clear to me: I believe in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit and Bible.

There is many things right now I don't know what to follow or do. But in this thread, I wanna focus in just one of them: the Sabbath / the 4th commandment. It is making me desperate, overthink over and over and get worried so often.


What should I do?

I have already read the Bible arguments from SDA and they look really good. But I also read the Bible arguments from people that do not follow the Sabbath and they also look really good.
Since both really look good, I thought that the Bible is contradicting itself, but I truly believe in the Bible, I just don't know what to follow.




Arguments from SDA:
1- The 4th commandment that God gave to Moses
2- Matthew 17:3 - I don't know exactly if this is an argument, but I saw some using it.
3- Mark 7:6-13
4- Luke 16:31
5- Deuteronomy 8:11


Arguments that don't think Christians need to follow Sabbath:
1- Romans 14:5,6
2- Galatians 5:2-8
3- Galatians 4:9-11
4- Colossians 2:14-17



I am personally more inclined to the non-Sabbath verses, because they look more solid and direct on what message/meaning they are trying to get across and it is also aiming for Christians that are not Jewish, but the SDA arguments are also good.

Please, don't use articles and texts that are not from the Bible to make an argument.
And don't use "if your conscience says to..." arguments, they are so shallow, and this is a subject that is directed connected to God and Jesus and defines if you go to hell or no, because even if you do every other thing correctly, if God's Truth is that no matter who you are you should follow Sabbath, then I would say it is a condemning subject.

First, there are no direct Sabbath commands given to us believers in the pages of the New Testament. In other words, there is no command by Jesus or the apostle Paul saying something like this: “Thou shalt keep the Sabbath.” Also, the breaking of the Sabbath is not listed among the list of many various sins by the apostles Paul, and the apostle John (See: Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8, etc.). For example: When Paul says, that murderers will not inherit the kingdom of God, he does not mention anything about Sabbath day breakers.

Second, Colossians 2:14-17, and Romans 14:5 indicate to us that the Sabbath day is no longer.

Three, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says that the Gentile believers do not have to keep the Law of Moses and to circumcise as a part of salvation. The apostles only stressed in keeping such laws as: Abstaining from pollutions of idols, from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:20). If there was ever a time to stress the importance of keeping the Sabbath, this would have been the time to do it (Seeing the Sabbath is more a ceremonial performance based law like circumcision). Paul said in Galatians 5:2 that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Meaning, if we go back to the Old Law, the Lord will not be of any benefit to us. Acts of the Apostles 13:39 says this.

“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 13:39).​

The Saturday Sabbath is clearly a part of the Old Testament Law of Moses, and it is not a command that is clearly given to us by our Lord Jesus Christ and or by His apostles.


Side Note:

People keeping the Sabbath does not equate with how it is a command. The New Covenant began with Christ's death upon the cross, and it took time for His followers to figure out that we are not under the Law of Moses. We are under the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (See: John 1:17).