Abortion

[]RiSeN[]

Sorry, that's what the words mean. Take it up with Webster's.

And how do you know what Mr Eisenhower meant?

He is clearly stating there is a difference between the two, hense the injected choice.

 

[]RiSeN[]

God gives us our bodies to do with what we will - what we choose. A woman's body belongs to her and to her alone, unless she agrees to share it within a committed relationship with another. Even then, it is a choice - no one can lay claim to her body over her objections. I see no profanity in it and if the Judeo/Christian God truly had a problem with it, I imagine that he would have stated so in the Bible since people have been performing abortions with herbal medicines and the like since the beginning of time...

He does say so, you just wont listen. Not all people from the beginning of time have been 'God's people'.

"For you were the One drawing me forth from the belly, The One making me trust while upon the breasts of my mother. Upon you I have been thrown from the womb; From the belly of my mother you have been my God." Psalms 22:9-10
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[]RiSeN[]

God is the Giver of life, not woman.

"Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: "I have produced a man with the aid of God." Genesis 4:1

 

[jesusfreak3786]

The Bible does have the ten commandments though - and that covers stealing. It also states that Christians should obey the laws of their land, which covers the traffic & safety laws. My point is - if your rejection of abortion is based on religious grounds - I don't see where it is biblically supported.

Flege posted verses that cover a form of abortion, Exodus 21

The problem as I have stated before is the venom on both sides which prohibits decent discussion. I can see ways to drastically reduce the #s of abortions, but some pro life supporters want it made patently illegal. While many Americans are disgusted with the idea of abortion for "convenience" - most of them want it available for medical neccisity, severe abnormality, rape and incest. If your belief is that it is never acceptable - how do you expect that we will ever resolve this?

If the magority feels that way, than how come the the law doesn't reflect that? Whats the big deal with restrictions on abortion? I can bet the since such a small minority of abortions are from rape, and medical conditions, that the driving force to the continuation of abortion how it is, is the ones who want it for conveniance.

 

[Seeking...]

Flege posted verses that cover a form of abortion, Exodus 21.

Yes, the verse states that a fine must be paid as determined by judges for the loss of the fetus. That certainly doesn't suggest that the life of a fetus is the same as a child - the loss isn't punished equally. The eye for an eye parts seems to be referring to damage done to the mother following whatever caused the miscarriage. Again - the Bible never addresses women and what they did/do to prevent pregnancy from going full term...

If the magority feels that way, than how come the the law doesn't reflect that? Whats the big deal with restrictions on abortion? I can bet the since such a small minority of abortions are from rape, and medical conditions, that the driving force to the continuation of abortion how it is, is the ones who want it for conveniance.

The big deal is that most Americans aren't comfortable with deferring to others when it comes to making personal decisions. I'm not comfortable with abortion on demand, but I wouldn't restrict the right to it - because I also don't want a woman to be forced to disclose her reasons for having one. If we did restrict to certain things - how would we enforce it? Would she have to provide a police report to claim rape? Who does she tell her reason to and who gets to judge it? The driving force behind its continuation is actually people very much like me, who want to reduce it through education and addressing societal issues - who don't want to restrict is legislatively, women like me who don't like abortion but dislike someone else having control over our bodies more...

 

[Seeking...]

God is the Giver of life, not woman.

"Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: "I have produced a man with the aid of God." Genesis 4:1

God is the Creator of Life, He made women and men continue the process.
He has given us control over aspects of the process by making us a part of it.

 

[]RiSeN[]

God is the Creator of Life, He made women and men continue the process.
He has given us control over aspects of the process by making us a part of it.

The account of Abraham and Sarah tell us different.

 

[Seeking...]

He does say so, you just wont listen. Not all people from the beginning of time have been 'God's people'.

"For you were the One drawing me forth from the belly, The One making me trust while upon the breasts of my mother. Upon you I have been thrown from the womb; From the belly of my mother you have been my God." Psalms 22:9-10


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What exactly does your statement mean? God has said nothing to me about this issue. I address the Bible only because it is something you address and it holds truth for you - and I've seen nothing in it about this issue.

Abortion is simply nothing new and it was not addressed by the Bible.

The fact that God "knows" us in our mother's wombs doesn't mean anything - He knows us all and we all die at some point. We always have. You need to pick one path to go down. Either God is all powerful and man cannot thwart him - so there is not a plan for every life (or the plan for some life is simply to die before consciousness) or God is not quite all powerful and is thwarted by man's free will and we are killing folks that God has plans for. Now pick.

Personally, I believe in God. I don't believe in a Great Plan. Everything that happens is what is supposed to happen - and I don't claim to understand/have an answer for any of it.

 

[Seeking...]

The account of Abraham and Sarah tell us different.

Lots of stories on both sides of the fence.
Life tells me different too.
Billions born to women and men. Billions not born due to precautions taken by women and men. Fertility medication. Invitro fertilization.

God always has the final say - but we are active partners in the process.

 

[]RiSeN[]

God is the Creator of Life, He made women and men continue the process.
He has given us control over aspects of the process by making us a part of it.

Even the order of creation shows us that God is the only Source of ALL life;

Genesis 1:

"And God went on to say: "Let the waters under the heavens be brought together into one place and let the dry land appear." And it came to be so. 10 And God began calling the dry land Earth, but the bringing together of the waters he called Seas. Further, God saw that [it was] good. 11 And God went on to say: "Let the earth cause grass to shoot forth, vegetation bearing seed, fruit trees yielding fruit according to their kinds, the seed of which is in it, upon the earth." And it came to be so. 12 And the earth began to put forth grass, vegetation bearing seed according to its kind and trees yielding fruit, the seed of which is in it according to its kind. Then God saw that [it was] good. 13 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a third day.​

14 And God went on to say: "Let luminaries come to be in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night; and they must serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years. 15 And they must serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth." And it came to be so. 16 And God proceeded to make the two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night, and also the stars. 17 Thus God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth, 18 and to dominate by day and by night and to make a division between the light and the darkness. Then God saw that [it was] good. 19 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a fourth day.

 

[Cheli]

Oh yeah...like that tired old argument is going to change my mind or even make it okay to have an abortion. Wrong is wrong no matter what arguement the selfish party decides to use

This is not a refutation of my argument. In fact, it tells me more about you not having a decent argument to make. Oh, and "selfish party"? Is a rape victim selfish?

Let's just have the kids. Let them grow up. Educate them. Then ask them if they want to die now. Problem solved.

Better yet, let's ask them while they are still embryos. Ten to one they won't have an opinion on the matter!

Of course abortion should be illegal - it is the direct and intentional killing of an unborn child.

Oh well, I'm convinced.

abortion should carry the penalties as murder.

Bull doo-doo

God pull's those who trust Him through hard times.

But the rest of us are screwed? When I see your god do anything of the sort I will gladly run through the street naked shouting about how wrong I was. The belief in your god may help those who need the crutch of religion, but the rest of us get through difficult times in other ways.

I'm sorry you don't buy it, it's He's the only way to life, and peace.

Don't be sorry. Happiness and strength are not restricted TO religion, but BY religion. I'm much happier now than I ever was as a christian.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Lots of stories on both sides of the fence.
Life tells me different too.
Billions born to women and men. Billions not born due to precautions taken by women and men. Fertility medication. Invitro fertilization.

God always has the final say - but we are active partners in the process.

We are not partners to God, we are His creation. The child can voice questions and concerns, but he is incapable of truthfully dictating to the parent what is best for himself.

 

[Seeking...]

Even the order of creation shows us that God is the only Source of ALL life;

I will clarify for you.

God made man and woman. Man and woman make babies. That makes them part of the process of continuing life. Common sense and science have given us ways to control or manipulate how and when that procreation happens.

I stated nothing false.

 

[]RiSeN[]

I will clarify for you.

God made man and woman. Man and woman make babies. That makes them part of the process of continuing life. Common sense and science have given us ways to control or manipulate how and when that procreation happens.

I stated nothing false.

Your pointing at trees and ommiting the forest.

 

[Seeking...]

We are not partners to God, we are His creation. The child can voice questions and concerns, but he is incapable of truthfully dictating to the parent what is best for himself.

Your perception of God differs greatly from mine. I don't see God as a paternal figure. You also must have had a very different childhood from mine. Sometimes a child is the only one who knows what is best for himself, having a child doesn't imbue you with special and secret knowledge of everything you need to know in the world. Part of what damages parent-child relationships is that some parents have the arrogance to believe they intuitively know what is best for their child without ever discussing anything with them...

 

[Seeking...]

Your pointing at trees and ommiting the forest.

You love stating this and offering no further explanation. What is the point?

God created Life. Man and women continue life.

What forest are you looking at?

 

[]RiSeN[]

Your perception of God differs greatly from mine. I don't see God as a paternal figure. You also must have had a very different childhood from mine. Sometimes a child is the only one who knows what is best for himself, having a child doesn't imbue you with special and secret knowledge of everything you need to know in the world. Part of what damages parent-child relationships is that some parents have the arrogance to believe they intuitively know what is best for their child without ever discussing anything with them...

Im talking about wisdom.

 

[]RiSeN[]

You love stating this and offering no further explanation. What is the point?

God created Life. Man and women continue life.

What forest are you looking at?

The complete acceptance of responsability towards God for the gifts He gave us.

 

[Seeking...]

Im talking about wisdom.

The parent is not neccesarily wiser than the child.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

O.K. So then what is a human fetus? I chicken........I doubt it, it's human, and it's living, prove me wrong.

Putting the adjective 'human' in front of the noun doesn't magically transform a fetus into a human being. A human corpse isn't a human being, is it?

That is false, I don't expect you to agree though so I won't waste time repeating myself.

That's not true.

And repeating yourself doesn't make it anyless false.

Brilliant responses. "Isnotisnotisnot!"