Abortion Discussion

[.Iona.]

I used to be very liberal on this topic, although the more I have grown in Christ the more my beliefs have changed.
I do not believe that abortion is right. But then, I am still stuck on the idea of children growing up with parents who didn't want them, or don't love them etc, and of children being raised in foster homes. I pregnancy being the result of a rape. Better than being killed before birth, but it's still an issue that I don't know where I really stand.

I am sure though, that I believe everything has the right to life.

 

[Cearbhall]

So an abortion can be done prior to 12 weeks because they developing human being feels no pain.

Across the world about a few hundred people suffer from one of a variety of diseases that make them completely unable to feel pain from the time they're born.

Should it be allowed that we can kill these human beings too? After all, they feel no pain.

No, it's the lack of sensation in addition to the issue of the bodily autonomy of the mother. Those people aren't compromising anyone's rights.

 

[Hank77]

So an abortion can be done prior to 12 weeks because they developing human being feels no pain.

Across the world about a few hundred people suffer from one of a variety of diseases that make them completely unable to feel pain from the time they're born.

Should it be allowed that we can kill these human beings too? After all, they feel no pain.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061213-pain.html

The difference is that the people who do not feel pain do have a brain that is actively working in other areas. If they were brain dead, no conscious brain activity, then it would be the same physical state of being.
Families choose to not save brain dead people all the time. People choose to write living wills, specifically stating that they should not be kept alive if they are in this state of being. How many people would accuses the families of murder or the damaged person of committing suicide?

Pain is definitely a valid moral issue when it comes to abortion. We put people in jail for committing crimes, we do not torture and dismember them. Most of us would say it would be immoral to do so.

 

[Shempster]

Abortion is such an issue because people want to abort babies rather than have them. IMO, its the same thing as letting them be born and then placing the newborn in the hands of the metal statue of Moloch and letting them burn to death.
Its funny how Christians insist on voting for Republicans because the talk big against abortion. Then they get in and do nothing about it. Most of the humans want to do this. All of the demonstrations do is embolden the perpetrators and add to their already crushing feelings of guilt. I don't care what they say...they all know its wrong.

 

[Cearbhall]

Abortion is such an issue because people want to abort babies rather than have them. IMO, its the same thing as letting them be born and then placing the newborn in the hands of the metal statue of Moloch and letting them burn to death.

Except that it's not the same thing at all, which is why you had to state both and make a dramatic comparison.

Its funny how Christians insist on voting for Republicans because the talk big against abortion. Then they get in and do nothing about it. Most of the humans want to do this.

In the United States?

 

[Archivist]

Breast cancers have been on the rise for over thirty years now

If true where is the credible study linking that to abortion? You have made the claim--prove it.

 

[PapaZoom]

If true where is the credible study linking that to abortion? You have made the claim--prove it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/advanced-breast-cancer-rise-younger-women/story?id=18606955
http://www.livescience.com/15271-common-breast-cancer-rise.html

All studies show the increase. it's been known for years

 

[PapaZoom]

There will never be enough acceptable data to the so-called choice side. They seek only to protect abortion rights and not the right to honest information regarding abortion. It's a fact that breast cancer has been on the rise for over thirty years. Many think the link in that rise is the increase of abortions. Either way, it's clear from research that there are many risk factors being ignored by those who know better. If PP tells a woman of the cancer risks among all the other potential risks, that woman may just no have that abortion and PP is out $$. So in many cases, women are lied to and told it's all good. No worries. No cancer links. And yet there is. Facts are stubborn things.

"PID, Placenta Previa, And Cancer Pelvic Inflammatory Disease (PID) is an infection that leads to fever and infertility. Researchers state, “Pelvic infection is a common and serious complication of induced abortion and has been reported in up to 30 percent of all cases.” A study of women having first-trimester abortions established that “women with post-abortal pelvic inflammatory disease had significantly higher rates of . . . spontaneous abortion, secondary infertility, dyspareunia [painful intercourse], and chronic pelvic pain.” ["Lars Heisterberg, MD, et al., “Sequelae of Induced First-Trimester Abortion,” American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology (July 1986): 79.]

Placenta previa, a misplacement of the placenta, is caused by “prior uterine insult or injury,” [ C. V. Anath et al., “The Association of Placenta Previa with History of Cesarean Delivery and Abortion: A Meta-Analysis,” American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology (November 1997): 1071–78. .]including abortion. [ “Induced Abortion and Subsequent Placenta Previa,” American Association of Prolife Obstetricians and Gynecologists (AAPLOG), citing Thorp (OB GYN Survey 58, no. 1 [2002]), accessed January 4, 2012, http://www.aaplog.org/complications-of-induced-abortion/induced-abortion-and-placenta-previa/induced-abortion-and-subsequent-placenta-previa/]

There is a 70 percent increase in the condition for women who have undergone an induced abortion. [ Ibid.]

The Guttmacher Institute states that about half of women who have had an abortion will go on to have more. [ Susan A. Cohen, “Repeat Abortion, Repeat Unintended Pregnancy, Repeated and Misguided Government Policies,” Guttmacher Policy Review 10, no. 2 (Spring 2007), http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/10/2/gpr100208.html. ]

Women with one abortion double their risk of cervical cancer, compared to nonabortive women, while women with two or more abortions multiply their risk by nearly five times. Similar elevated risks of ovarian and liver cancer have also been linked to single and multiple abortions. [ F. Parazzini et al., “Reproductive Factors and the Risk of Invasive and Intraepithelial Cervical Neoplasia,” British Journal of Cancer 59 (1989):805–9; H. L. Stewart et al., “Epidemiology of Cancers of the Uterine Cervix and Corpus, Breast and Ovary in Israel and New York City,” Journal of the National Cancer Institute 37, no. 1:1–96; I. Fujimoto et al., “Epidemiologic Study of Carcinoma in Situ of the Cervix,” Journal of Reproductive Medicine 30, no. 7 (July 1985): 535; C. LaVecchia et al., “Reproductive Factors and the Risk of Hepatocellular Carcinoma in Women,” International Journal of Cancer 52 (1992): 351.]

After extensive investigation, Dr. Joel Brind, a cancer researcher and professor of endocrinology, concluded, “The single most avoidable risk factor for breast cancer is induced abortion.” [ Joel Brind, “Comprehensive Review and Meta-Analysis of the Abortion/Breast Cancer Link,” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1060338/?tool=pmcentrez.]

A woman who has an abortion increases her risk of breast cancer by a minimum of 50 percent and as much as 300 percent. [ L. A. Brinton et al., “Reproductive Factors in the Aetiology of Breast Cancer,” British Journal of Cancer 47 (1983): 757–62. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6860545]

 

[PapaZoom]

"Karen Sullivan Ables says she wasn’t told the truth of what her abortion might do to her: I could feel the baby being torn from my insides. It was really painful. . . . Three-quarters of the way through the operation I sat up. . . . In the cylinder I saw the bits and pieces of my little child floating in a pool of blood. I screamed and jumped up off the table. . . . I just couldn’t stop throwing up. . . . I had nightmares and recurring dreams about my baby. I couldn’t work my job. I just lay in my bed and cried. Once, I wept so hard I sprained my ribs. Another time while crying, I was unable to breathe and I passed out. I was unable to walk on the beach because the playing children would make me cry. Even Pampers commercials would set me into fits of uncontrollable crying.

"I was told at Planned Parenthood that this little “blob of tissue” would be as easily removed as a wart."

"Terminating a pregnancy, I was told, was no more significant than removing a tiny blood clot in my uterus."

All lies
Read it here: http://clinicquotes.com/not-a-blob-of-tissue/

 

[Hank77]

Breast cancers have been on the rise for over thirty years now

That is true, the same amount of time hormonal contraceptives have been on the market. Most doctor's will tell their patients that there is a higher risk of breast cancer from using these contraceptives.

By the way, the article we were discussing last night, from one of your sites, means my youngest daughter is at a higher risk for breast cancer. Not because she has ever had an induced abortion, she has not, but because she has never carried a baby to full term. Both of her son's were born preemies, one at 32 wks, and this last one born in Oct, at 28 wks.

 

[PapaZoom]

That is true, the same amount of time hormonal contraceptives have been on the market. Most doctor's will tell their patients that there is a higher risk of breast cancer from using these contraceptives.

By the way, the article we were discussing last night, from one of your sites, means my youngest daughter is at a higher risk for breast cancer. Not because she has ever had an induced abortion, she has not, but because she has never carried a baby to full term. Both of her son's were born preemies, one at 32 wks, and this last one born in Oct, at 28 wks.

Exactly as the report I offered said. To the letter.

 

[PapaZoom]

Those studies that show a statistically significant link between abortion and breast cancer are as follows: M. Segi et al., “An Epidemiological Study on Cancer in Japan,” GANN (Japanese Journal of Cancer Research) 48 suppl. (1957): 1–63; L. Rosenberg et al., “Breast Cancer in Relation to the Occurrence and Time of Induced and Spontaneous Abortion,” American Journal of Epidemiology 127 (1988): 981–989; H.L. Howe et al., “Early Abortion and Breast Cancer Risk Among Women Under Age 40,” International Journal of Epidemiology 18 (1989): 300–304; A.E. Laing et al., “Breast Cancer Risk Factors in African-American Women: The Howard University Tumor Registry Experience,” Journal of the National Medical Association 85 (1993): 931–939; A.E. Laing et al., “Reproductive and Lifestyle Factors for Breast Cancer in African-American Women,” Genetic Epidemiology 11 (1994): A300; J.R. Daling et al., “Risk of Breast Cancer among Young Women: Relationship to Induced Abortions,” Journal of the National Cancer Institute 86 (1994): 1584–1592; J.R. Daling et al., “Risk of Breast Cancer among White Women Following Induced Abortion,” American Journal of Epidemiology 144 (1996): 373–380; P.A. Newcomb et al., “Pregnancy Termination in Relation to Risk of Breast Cancer,” Journal of the American Medical Association 275 (1996): 283–287; J.R. Palmer et al., “Induced Abortion in Relation to Risk of Breast Cancer (United States),” Cancer Causes Control 8 (1997): 841–849; F. Nishiyama, “The Epidemiology of Breast Cancer in Tokushima Prefecture,” shikoku Ichi 38 (1982): 333–343 (in Japanese); M.G. Le et al., “Oral Contraceptive Use and Breast or Cervical Cancer: Preliminary Results of a French Case-Control Study,” in Hormones and Sexual Factors in Human Cancer Aetiology, eds. J.P Wolff and J.S. Scott (Amsterdam: Elsevier, 1984), 139–147; L. Lipworth et al., “Abortion and the Risk of Breast Cancer: A Case-Control Study in Greece,” International Journal of Cancer 61 (1995): 181–184; M.A. Rookus and F.E. van Leeuwen, “Induced Abortion and Risk for Breast Cancer: Reporting (Recall) Bias in a Dutch Case-Control Study,” Journal of the National Cancer Institute 88 (1996): 1759–1764; L. Bu et al., “Risk of Breast Cancer Associated
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with Induced Abortion in a Population at Low Risk of Breast Cancer,” American Journal of Epidemiology 141 (1995): S85 (abstract 337); R. Talamini et al., “The Role of Reproductive and Menstrual Factors in Cancer of the Breast Before and After Menopause,” European Journal of Cancer 32A (1996): 303–310; E. Luporsi, unpublished study (1988) data used in N. Andrieu et al., “Familial Risk, Abortion and Their Interactive Effect on the Risk of Breast Cancer—A Combined Analysis of Six Case-Control Studies,” British Journal of Cancer 72 (1995): 744–751; T.E. Rohan, “A Population-Based Case-Control Study of Diet and Breast Cancer in Australia,” (1988), in Andrieu, “Familial Risk, Abortion”; J. Brind et al., “Induced Abortion as an Independent Risk Factor for Breast Cancer: A Comprehensive Review and MetaAnalysis,” Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 50 (1996): 481–496.

 

[Hank77]

Exactly as the report I offered said. To the letter.

I going to have her verify it with her doctor and how much of a difference it can actually make. She has decided not to get pregnant again because the doc said another one could come even earlier. She's no willing to take that chance and dad agreed. This last one was in the NICU for a month.

This doesn't have anything to do with our specific discussion last night.

 

[PapaZoom]

I going to have her verify it with her doctor and how much of a difference it can actually make. She has decided not to get pregnant again because the doc said another one could come even earlier. She's no willing to take that chance and dad agreed. This last one was in the NICU for a month.

This doesn't have anything to do with our specific discussion last night.

It a touchy situation and a difficult decision. My son's wife has miscarried and due to "female issues" cannot have children without risk. They are still hoping but are mid-thirties. Cancer risk increases with older women but there are other risks that come with age too.

 

[Hank77]

It a touchy situation and a difficult decision. My son's wife has miscarried and due to "female issues" cannot have children without risk. They are still hoping but are mid-thirties. Cancer risk increases with older women but there are other risks that come with age too.

That is sad. I pray they can be successful and she is kept safe from harm.

 

[Archivist]

All studies show the increase. it's been known for years

Try again. The study you cited mentions obesity, smoking, genetics and alcohol use as possible causes, but provides no link to abortion as a cause.

 

[Archivist]

Those studies that show a statistically significant link between abortion and breast cancer are as follows: M. Segi et al., “An Epidemiological Study on Cancer in Japan,” GANN (Japanese Journal of Cancer Research) 48 suppl. (1957): 1–63; L. Rosenberg et al., “Breast Cancer in Relation to the Occurrence and Time of Induced and Spontaneous Abortion,” American Journal of Epidemiology 127 (1988): 981–989; H.L. Howe et al., “Early Abortion and Breast Cancer Risk Among Women Under Age 40,” International Journal of Epidemiology 18 (1989): 300–304; A.E. Laing et al., “Breast Cancer Risk Factors in African-American Women: The Howard University Tumor Registry Experience,” Journal of the National Medical Association 85 (1993): 931–939; A.E. Laing et al., “Reproductive and Lifestyle Factors for Breast Cancer in African-American Women,” Genetic Epidemiology 11 (1994): A300; J.R. Daling et al., “Risk of Breast Cancer among Young Women: Relationship to Induced Abortions,” Journal of the National Cancer Institute 86 (1994): 1584–1592; J.R. Daling et al., “Risk of Breast Cancer among White Women Following Induced Abortion,” American Journal of Epidemiology 144 (1996): 373–380; P.A. Newcomb et al., “Pregnancy Termination in Relation to Risk of Breast Cancer,” Journal of the American Medical Association 275 (1996): 283–287; J.R. Palmer et al., “Induced Abortion in Relation to Risk of Breast Cancer (United States),” Cancer Causes Control 8 (1997): 841–849; F. Nishiyama, “The Epidemiology of Breast Cancer in Tokushima Prefecture,” shikoku Ichi 38 (1982): 333–343 (in Japanese); M.G. Le et al., “Oral Contraceptive Use and Breast or Cervical Cancer: Preliminary Results of a French Case-Control Study,” in Hormones and Sexual Factors in Human Cancer Aetiology, eds. J.P Wolff and J.S. Scott (Amsterdam: Elsevier, 1984), 139–147; L. Lipworth et al., “Abortion and the Risk of Breast Cancer: A Case-Control Study in Greece,” International Journal of Cancer 61 (1995): 181–184; M.A. Rookus and F.E. van Leeuwen, “Induced Abortion and Risk for Breast Cancer: Reporting (Recall) Bias in a Dutch Case-Control Study,” Journal of the National Cancer Institute 88 (1996): 1759–1764; L. Bu et al., “Risk of Breast Cancer Associated with Induced Abortion in a Population at Low Risk of Breast Cancer,” American Journal of Epidemiology 141 (1995): S85 (abstract 337); R. Talamini et al., “The Role of Reproductive and Menstrual Factors in Cancer of the Breast Before and After Menopause,” European Journal of Cancer 32A (1996): 303–310; E. Luporsi, unpublished study (1988) data used in N. Andrieu et al., “Familial Risk, Abortion and Their Interactive Effect on the Risk of Breast Cancer—A Combined Analysis of Six Case-Control Studies,” British Journal of Cancer 72 (1995): 744–751; T.E. Rohan, “A Population-Based Case-Control Study of Diet and Breast Cancer in Australia,” (1988), in Andrieu, “Familial Risk, Abortion”; J. Brind et al., “Induced Abortion as an Independent Risk Factor for Breast Cancer: A Comprehensive Review and MetaAnalysis,” Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 50 (1996): 481–496.

Posting a bunch of very old data doesn't help your position. The oldest if these studies is 1957, almost 60 years old. The newest is 1997, almost 20 years old. Further many of these don't appear to be linked to abortion--diet, oral contraceptive use, menstrual factors? Try again.

 

[KCfromNC]

Breast cancers have been on the rise for over thirty years now

And abortion numbers have been steady or declining during that time. How's that supposed to show a link between the two?

 

[Archivist]

Breast cancers have been on the rise for over thirty years now

So has obesity which, unlike abortion, is recognized as a possible cause of breast cancer.

 

[PapaZoom]

Try again. The study you cited mentions obesity, smoking, genetics and alcohol use as possible causes, but provides no link to abortion as a cause.

I provided a huge list of studies that show an abortion connection.