Abiogenesis

[Speedwell]

At this point in time, I am of the opinion that it's more of a well supported scientific hypothesis for which there is considerable observed and experimental evidence. While there has been a lot of progress, I don't think abiogenesis quite rises to the level of scientific theory.

I made the same comment in another thread and eleos thought it was humorous.

 

[eleos1954]

No, abiogenesis is still in the hypothetical stage. A scientific theory not only explain all of the evidence, it has also been tested and confirmed countless times. There are still significant unanswered questions in abiogenesis.

But on the plus side it is the only concept that is supported at all by the evidence.

What is all the "evidence"?

 

[klutedavid]

At this point in time, I am of the opinion that it's more of a well supported scientific hypothesis for which there is considerable observed and experimental evidence. While there has been a lot of progress, I don't think abiogenesis quite rises to the level of scientific theory.

Exactly what I was thinking, a good post.

On the level of hard evidence it seems impossible to acquire that evidence, there would not be any fossilized evidence of abiogenesis.

The concept of early life in the form of extremely complex cells, is a profound mystery.

 

[Occams Barber]

I love a good quote mine.

If you add on the full context of Crick's quotes you'll find that they don't say what your truncated version suggests:

“An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that, in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle"

...so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going. But this should not be taken to imply that there are good reasons to believe that it could not have started on the earth by a perfectly reasonable sequence of fairly ordinary chemical reactions.

In other words Crick accepts that there are good reasons to believe that abiogenesis is natural phenomenon.

"Every time I write a paper on the origin of life, I determine I will never write another one, because there is too much speculation running after too few facts."

...though I must confess that in spite of this, the subject is so fascinating that I never seem to stick to my resolve.

In other words, in spite of the speculation, Crick sees understanding abiogenesis as a scientific goal worth pursuing.


Misleading quotes (aka quote mining) are a creationist's stock in trade. By repeating these misleading partial quotes you have, no doubt unintentionally, created a wrong impression of Crick's views on abiogenesis.

OB

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That would be abiogenesis yes.

However, there is no data supporting that idea.

I though that was "panspermia"

 

[VirOptimus]

I though that was "panspermia"

it is

 

[Subduction Zone]

I though that was "panspermia"

Technically even the Bible story has abiogenesis in it.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

What is all the "evidence"?

Credit to Reddit user /u/maskedman3d for this post.

Abiogenesis is a working hypothesis, it is currently our best idea as to how life originated given the current evidence. Some say it contradicts the "law(very loosely named)" of biogenesis, but it doesn't. Biogenesis disproves the archaic idea that full formed modern lifeforms like maggots and and mice magically arise from inanimate matter like rotting corpses and dirty laundry. By contrast abiogenesis suggest that early life arose from complex chemical reactions and self replicating molecular compounds and structures. But is there any evidence for such an event? Yes:

Early Earth Chemistry:
______________________________________________________________________

1. On the early chemical history of the Earth and the origin of life. By Harold C. Urey
2. Physical conditions on the early Earth
3. Analysis of early atmosphere chemistry from zircon crystals.

______________________________________________________________________


What we have observed:
______________________________________________________________________

1. Glycolaldehyde, a sugar which is used to form RNA, forms naturally in space 1
2. That 52 amino acids, 8 of which are found in terrestrial proteins, are found in Carbonaceous chondrites iron-rich metionrites
3. And that large organic macromolecular compounds can be found in comets 2 3
4. That peptide bonds between amino acids form at the air–water interface
5. That lipid bilayers are capable of spontaneous formation
6. The chemicals needed for two of life's metabolic pathways are found near hydrothermal vents
7. Delicate organic molecules found on the dwarf planet Ceres probably formed there

Expanded info:

1 Detection of the simplest sugar, glycolaldehyde, in a solar-type protostar with ALMA

2 16 organic compounds including four compounds that have never before been detected in comets found on Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

3 Rosetta probe finds amino acid glycine and phosphorus on Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
_________________________________________________________________________


Experimental Data:
_________________________________________________________________________

RNA:

1. Ribonucleotides can form abiotically
2. Conditions like meteorite impacts can generate the four nucleobases adenine, guanine, cytosine and uracil
3. Pyranosyl-RNA can self assemble
4. RNA like molecules can self assemble
5. Precursors of ribonucleotides, amino acids and lipids from an possible abiotic origin
6. Spontaneous Formation of RNA Strands, Peptidyl RNA, and Cofactors
7. The replication of RNA and the expression of functional RNA can be accomplished with RNA alone
8. Researchers synthesized RNA enzymes that can replicate themselves without the help of any proteins or other cellular components
9. Thioester peptide nucleic acids {tPNAs} self-pair with complementary tPNA strands and cross-pair with RNA and DNA
10. Methyl-RNA: an evolutionary bridge between RNA and DNA?
11. Mimicking an impact on Earth’s early atmosphere yields all 4 RNA bases
12. NASA finds ice sample containing pyrimidine exposed to ultraviolet radiation under space-like conditions produces uracil, cytosine, and thymine, three key components of RNA and DNA
13. For the first time experiment shows that RNA can form in alkaline hydrothermal chimneys
14. Depsipeptides, formed quickly and abundantly under conditions that would have been common on prebiotic Earth (shared by /u/Denisova)

Amino Acids:

1. 22 amino acids synthesized under abiotic conditions
2. Fatty acids, amines and an amino acid called glycine formed in conditions similar to meteorite impact
3. Collapsing bubbles may have served as natural bioreactors in primordial oceans, producing the basic chemical ingredients required for the beginning of life.

Proteins:

1. DNA, amino acids, and ribosomes used to manufacture proteins without using cells
2. Protein like amino acid chains called Proteinoids form abiotically
3. Fatty molecules POPC added to solution caused unlikely self-organization and production of proteins

Chemical Evolution:

1. Divergence of self-replicating chemicals mimics speciation
2. Diamidophosphate a plausible prebiotic agent efficiently phosphorylates nucleosides/tides, amino acids and lipid precursor under aqueous conditions 4

Expanded info:

4 Phosphorylation, oligomerization and self-assembly in water under potential prebiotic conditions

Abiotic production of sugar phosphates and uridine ribonucleoside in aqueous microdroplets

Observations reveal that reaction sequences that constitute central carbon metabolism could have been constrained by the iron‐rich oceanic environment of the early Archean.
_________________________________________________________________________


Homochirality and Abiogenesis:
_________________________________________________________________________

1. Effect of polarized electromagnetic radiation on proteic amino acid
2. Synthesis and chirality of amino acids under interstellar conditions
3. Asymmetric autocatalysis and its implications for the origin of homochirality
4. Evolution of Solid Phase Homochirality for a Proteinogenic Amino Acid
5. A Possible Path to the RNA World: Enantioselective and Diastereoselective Purification of Ribose
6. The Origin of Biological Homochirality
7. Chiral recognition and selection during the self-assembly process of protein-mimic macroanions

_________________________________________________________________________


The physics of entorpy and abiogenesis:
_________________________________________________________________________

1. Entropy helps to shape protein Integrin αIIbβ3
2. Entropy causes genome to self organize
3. Entropy-driven stacking of plant photosynthetic membranes
4. Thermodynamics might drive abiogenesis
5. Computer simulations offer support for thermodynamics driven chemical evolution

_________________________________________________________________________


Genetic "code" and formation:
_________________________________________________________________________

1. Proto-genes and de novo gene birth
2. New genes from non-coding sequence
3. Structural Insights into the Origins of DNA Polymerase Fidelity
4. Experiment shows new biological functions commonly arise within random sequences. 5

Expanded info:

5 Random sequences are an abundant source of bioactive RNAs or peptides
_________________________________________________________________________


Also of interest:
_________________________________________________________________________

1. "Chemically active” droplets grow to the size of cells and spontaneously divide
2. The Origins of the RNA World
3. The RNA Worlds in Context
4. Papers from the Szostak Lab
5. Evolution of biological information
6. The origin of ion-pumping proteins could explain how life began in, and escaped from, undersea thermal vents.
7. The Otto Research Group publications on chemistry and biology

_________________________________________________________________________

 

[eleos1954]

Credit to Reddit user /u/maskedman3d for this post.

Abiogenesis is a working hypothesis, it is currently our best idea as to how life originated given the current evidence. Some say it contradicts the "law(very loosely named)" of biogenesis, but it doesn't. Biogenesis disproves the archaic idea that full formed modern lifeforms like maggots and and mice magically arise from inanimate matter like rotting corpses and dirty laundry. By contrast abiogenesis suggest that early life arose from complex chemical reactions and self replicating molecular compounds and structures. But is there any evidence for such an event? Yes:

Early Earth Chemistry:
______________________________________________________________________

1. On the early chemical history of the Earth and the origin of life. By Harold C. Urey
2. Physical conditions on the early Earth
3. Analysis of early atmosphere chemistry from zircon crystals.

______________________________________________________________________


What we have observed:
______________________________________________________________________

1. Glycolaldehyde, a sugar which is used to form RNA, forms naturally in space 1
2. That 52 amino acids, 8 of which are found in terrestrial proteins, are found in Carbonaceous chondrites iron-rich metionrites
3. And that large organic macromolecular compounds can be found in comets 2 3
4. That peptide bonds between amino acids form at the air–water interface
5. That lipid bilayers are capable of spontaneous formation
6. The chemicals needed for two of life's metabolic pathways are found near hydrothermal vents
7. Delicate organic molecules found on the dwarf planet Ceres probably formed there

Expanded info:

1 Detection of the simplest sugar, glycolaldehyde, in a solar-type protostar with ALMA

2 16 organic compounds including four compounds that have never before been detected in comets found on Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

3 Rosetta probe finds amino acid glycine and phosphorus on Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
_________________________________________________________________________


Experimental Data:
_________________________________________________________________________

RNA:

1. Ribonucleotides can form abiotically
2. Conditions like meteorite impacts can generate the four nucleobases adenine, guanine, cytosine and uracil
3. Pyranosyl-RNA can self assemble
4. RNA like molecules can self assemble
5. Precursors of ribonucleotides, amino acids and lipids from an possible abiotic origin
6. Spontaneous Formation of RNA Strands, Peptidyl RNA, and Cofactors
7. The replication of RNA and the expression of functional RNA can be accomplished with RNA alone
8. Researchers synthesized RNA enzymes that can replicate themselves without the help of any proteins or other cellular components
9. Thioester peptide nucleic acids {tPNAs} self-pair with complementary tPNA strands and cross-pair with RNA and DNA
10. Methyl-RNA: an evolutionary bridge between RNA and DNA?
11. Mimicking an impact on Earth’s early atmosphere yields all 4 RNA bases
12. NASA finds ice sample containing pyrimidine exposed to ultraviolet radiation under space-like conditions produces uracil, cytosine, and thymine, three key components of RNA and DNA
13. For the first time experiment shows that RNA can form in alkaline hydrothermal chimneys
14. Depsipeptides, formed quickly and abundantly under conditions that would have been common on prebiotic Earth (shared by /u/Denisova)

Amino Acids:

1. 22 amino acids synthesized under abiotic conditions
2. Fatty acids, amines and an amino acid called glycine formed in conditions similar to meteorite impact
3. Collapsing bubbles may have served as natural bioreactors in primordial oceans, producing the basic chemical ingredients required for the beginning of life.

Proteins:

1. DNA, amino acids, and ribosomes used to manufacture proteins without using cells
2. Protein like amino acid chains called Proteinoids form abiotically
3. Fatty molecules POPC added to solution caused unlikely self-organization and production of proteins

Chemical Evolution:

1. Divergence of self-replicating chemicals mimics speciation
2. Diamidophosphate a plausible prebiotic agent efficiently phosphorylates nucleosides/tides, amino acids and lipid precursor under aqueous conditions 4

Expanded info:

4 Phosphorylation, oligomerization and self-assembly in water under potential prebiotic conditions

Abiotic production of sugar phosphates and uridine ribonucleoside in aqueous microdroplets

Observations reveal that reaction sequences that constitute central carbon metabolism could have been constrained by the iron‐rich oceanic environment of the early Archean.
_________________________________________________________________________


Homochirality and Abiogenesis:
_________________________________________________________________________

1. Effect of polarized electromagnetic radiation on proteic amino acid
2. Synthesis and chirality of amino acids under interstellar conditions
3. Asymmetric autocatalysis and its implications for the origin of homochirality
4. Evolution of Solid Phase Homochirality for a Proteinogenic Amino Acid
5. A Possible Path to the RNA World: Enantioselective and Diastereoselective Purification of Ribose
6. The Origin of Biological Homochirality
7. Chiral recognition and selection during the self-assembly process of protein-mimic macroanions

_________________________________________________________________________


The physics of entorpy and abiogenesis:
_________________________________________________________________________

1. Entropy helps to shape protein Integrin αIIbβ3
2. Entropy causes genome to self organize
3. Entropy-driven stacking of plant photosynthetic membranes
4. Thermodynamics might drive abiogenesis
5. Computer simulations offer support for thermodynamics driven chemical evolution

_________________________________________________________________________


Genetic "code" and formation:
_________________________________________________________________________

1. Proto-genes and de novo gene birth
2. New genes from non-coding sequence
3. Structural Insights into the Origins of DNA Polymerase Fidelity
4. Experiment shows new biological functions commonly arise within random sequences. 5

Expanded info:

5 Random sequences are an abundant source of bioactive RNAs or peptides
_________________________________________________________________________


Also of interest:
_________________________________________________________________________

1. "Chemically active” droplets grow to the size of cells and spontaneously divide
2. The Origins of the RNA World
3. The RNA Worlds in Context
4. Papers from the Szostak Lab
5. Evolution of biological information
6. The origin of ion-pumping proteins could explain how life began in, and escaped from, undersea thermal vents.
7. The Otto Research Group publications on chemistry and biology

_________________________________________________________________________

and you believe all of this to be factual? ok ... have you analyzed all the data yourself? Are you capable of doing so?

Your faith is in science ... understood.

faith
complete trust or confidence in someone or something

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

and you believe all of this to be factual? ok ... have you analyzed all the data yourself? Are you capable of doing so?

Your faith is in science ... understood.

faith
complete trust or confidence in someone or something

Did you witness your god creating anything? You believe your priest to be factual? The bible? What everyone else in your life told you was true about your religion? I can ask questions too. But being able to ask questions about things does not inherently bring those things "into question", but abiogenesis certainly is an open question and everything I presented and more shows that it is being investigated scientifically.

Yes, I am capable of analyzing a lot of it. I mean... I can read and I can use logic and I can think and use google for things I don't have a good grasp on and gain understanding. You could too if you wanted to. I simply presented a detailed answer to your question about the "evidence."

If it makes you feel better to question the motives of the thousands and thousands of people involved in all of the research and publications I presented as your only critique of the material... I don't think you really care about what is true. You only care about what supports what you've been taught to believe about your religion. That's fine. But why are you wasting your time in this forum? There are plenty of Christians Only forums for you peruse and talk about those beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

and you believe all of this to be factual? ok ... have you analyzed all the data yourself? Are you capable of doing so?

Your faith is in science ... understood.

faith
complete trust or confidence in someone or something

Now you just committed an equivocation fallacy. The "faith" in science needs to have the qualifier added "based on an incredibly successful history of solving problems". The faith in God is a faith without reliable evidence and very often despite the reliable evidence. It is not a rational faith.

But we are now far afield of the OP. That life almost certainly arose on its own does not refute God. It would only refute incorrect versions of "God".

 

[eleos1954]

Now you just committed an equivocation fallacy. The "faith" in science needs to have the qualifier added "based on an incredibly successful history of solving problems". The faith in God is a faith without reliable evidence and very often despite the reliable evidence. It is not a rational faith.

But we are now far afield of the OP. That life almost certainly arose on its own does not refute God. It would only refute incorrect versions of "God".

But we are now far afield of the OP.

Yes we are .... perhaps you should start a topic on this.

That life almost certainly arose on its own does not refute God. It would only refute incorrect versions of "God"

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes we are .... perhaps you should start a topic on this.

What exactly do you want to discuss?

 

[Belk]

Exactly what happened?

Life started.

 

[HARK!]

Life started.

How?

 

[Subduction Zone]

How?

Probably through the process of natural abiogenesis. It is the only concept supported by evidence right now. You would think that creationists would try to work on an alternative explanation that could pass scientific peer review.

 

[HARK!]

Probably through the process of natural abiogenesis.

How does that work? Can it be repeated in lab conditions?

 

[Speedwell]

How does that work? Can it be repeated in lab conditions?

Parts of what is believed to have been the process have been, but there still is no fully articulated theory.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How does that work? Can it be repeated in lab conditions?

What do you mean by "How does that work?"? And parts of abiogenesis can be repeated in the lab but not the whole process yet. I am sure that you have been told more than once that abiogenesis is still in the hypothetical stage. That means that there are still some serious unanswered questions. But if you followed the science you would have known that there have been significant advances over the years. And remember, not having all of the answers is not necessarily evidence against an idea. It usually only means that there are unanswered questions. It is only evidence against an idea if those questions should have been answered right now. Life is a tough nut to crack. We are still learning how modern day life works. So there are no questions that "should" have been answered yet.

Now once again, why can't creation "scientists" do any work that supports their ideas?

 

[HARK!]

What do you mean by "How does that work?"? And parts of abiogenesis can be repeated in the lab but not the whole process yet. I am sure that you have been told more than once that abiogenesis is still in the hypothetical stage. That means that there are still some serious unanswered questions. But if you followed the science you would have known that there have been significant advances over the years. And remember, not having all of the answers is not necessarily evidence against an idea. It usually only means that there are unanswered questions. It is only evidence against an idea if those questions should have been answered right now. Life is a tough nut to crack. We are still learning how modern day life works. So there are no questions that "should" have been answered yet.

Now once again, why can't creation "scientists" do any work that supports their ideas?

I didn't mention the word should.

How old is this hypothesis?