Abiogenesis and Evolution

[Loudmouth]

Not about common ancestry. For the hundredth time.

The user, "As I was saying", was asking for evidence of common ancestry. Surely other people can speak for themselves?

 

[crjmurray]

Do you? Then how about this. I was standing in a prayer line next to a young man with one hand. I am sorry I should have photographed it for you so that you don't have to take my word for it. I didn't take my camera because I didn't know I was going to be standing in a prayer line next to a young man with only one hand.

When the guest speaker started praying for people to be healed I watched as this young man grew a second hand. I lifted his arm and touched the new hand and sure enough it was a real live hand. It wasn't a prosthetic that he slipped out of his sleeve to give the impression he had been healed. He flexed his fingers in and out and flapped his hand up and down as he was so excited. Well who wouldn't be. Then he flung his arms around me with both hands on the end shedding tears at such a wonderful miracle.

Of course there is no proof that this ever happened because I didn't get a doctor to examine him before the meeting to show that it was medically attested that he only had one hand. That would be very difficult as I did not know he was in the meeting as I had never met him before standing in the prayer line.

And then there is the lack of solid evidence because I saw it happen but the question is did anyone else? Perhaps not even though there were hundreds of people in the room and many standing in the vicinity of the young man when his hand grew but they did not write any scientific papers on the subject so they can't be believed.

And when the speaker asked people to come onto the stage if they had been healed the young man went up and explained what had happened. But of course we know he was lying as all he really wanted was public recognition for his fake miracle.

His parents were there as well so he asked them to come onto the stage and verify that the miracle had indeed taken place, which they did but of course in all probability the speaker paid them to say what they said as it would make him look good.

So you see, solid evidence is very hard to find especially when you are so cynical and no evidence is evidence unless it is backed up by a doctor who didn't see the miracle happen and the people concerned have written a paper about it that is peer reviewed in some scientific journal which does not have the slightest interest in the truth and when you believe that everyone is a liar unless he is an atheist.

P.S If this had been a court of law I would have been the main witness and I would have said I walked to the front and stood next to a young man with only one hand. When the speaker started praying for the sick I watched his hand grow. It was a miracle.

The next question would not have been "Have you written a peer reviewed article on the subject." In all probability it would have been "are you sure you saw it grow?" and my reply would have been "as sure as eggs are eggs I watched it grow."

If you were in a court of law no one would believe you. Your case would not succeed. In your example you have provided no physical evidence. The reason no one would believe you is because the physical evidence required to prove this story would be incredibly easy to demonstrate. A person with one arm, whether they were born without an arm or they lost it in an accident, would have a medical record reflecting this fact. This person at some point would have been fingerprinted, foot printed, and blood typed so identity could be verified. You say the person has parents who are alive? Great! Their DNA can be matched to the person in question. A simple medical examination would show that the person now has two arms. Hell, with all this easy to obtain information we don't even need any eyewitnesses! But you don't have any of that. Because it didn't happen.

 

[As I was saying]

If such a thing happened it would surely be headline news around the world. It would be quite easy to verify by comparing his medical records before and after the event.

Yes I have heard this silly comment ad infinitum from atheists in an attempt to avoid the truth.

Let me put you into the picture about the media. Generally speaking all the main steam media supports atheism and homosexuality and evolution. Rarely does anything of notable content about christianity get in the news. The homosexual Mardi Gras get prime time news and front page coverage. The March for Life get a few inches inside the paper.

The main stream has no interest whatsoever in anything that is going to prove the validity of Christianity.

It would only be headline news if it was a rare occurrence. Healing in the church today is quite common therefore it is not news. This particular speaker regularly has people healed in his meetings. If you want medical records please go and get them. You won't have much luck as medical records are subject to privacy law. I don't need them because I saw what happened. Just imagine how stupid I would look if I said I wanted to see medical records for something that I saw happen with my own eyes. Until a doctor who didn't see it tells me that it happened I am not going to believe I saw it happen.

Your reasoning to say the least is totally without logic. You know that thing atheists pride themselves in but....seem to be unable to use it. Just another case of an atheist who can't handle the truth. You do live in a cynical and sad world devoid of all joy and certainty.

 

[As I was saying]

Are you kidding?

That stuff is "second hand" anymore.

-- Ahem ... sorry ... carry on.

Good one AV1611. Glad you are around as the atheists in general are such a dull and humourless lot. He probably went to the second hand shop to buy another one so that he could buy himself a miracle. I am surprised the atheists haven't come up with that one.

 

[crjmurray]

What does any of this have to do with abiogenesis or evolution?

You're right.

 

[AV1611VET]

Good one AV1611.

Thank you, my friend!

 

[AnotherAtheist]

No of course not. I forgot that you have ESP so even though you were not there and have no evidence whatsoever that it did not happen shows what an ignoramus you are to think that we would believe that you are a world authority on what did or did not happen when you were not there and have no evidence whatsoever that it did not happen. All you have presented is hypothetical speculation which atheists specialise in when they can't handle the truth.

And you are totally wrong about court procedures. My testimony as an eyewitness to the fact would be accepted by the court and then it would be the prosecutions job to discredit it. The sort of thing you are talking about is the job of the prosecution to uncover as in a court you don't answer questions that are not asked. Just shows you know very little about the adversarial system that the court is based on.

Here's where you misunderstand the nature of evidence.

If you claim to see a hand having grown back, but the only evidence is that you claim it, then that is not strong evidence for the hand having grown back. You could have been deceived by a magic trick, for example.

That does not necessarily mean that those people saying that your evidence is not strong enough are saying that it didn't happen. What they are saying is that you haven't given enough evidence for it, therefore we can't be sufficiently confident that it did happen. There is a saying 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.' Your hand growing back is truly extraordinary claim, and people will demand pretty conclusive evidence for it. If you claim that you saw someone trip up while walking to their pew and the pastor helped them stand up again, you'll probably find that people don't demand such conclusive evidence for it. It could be that your claim is wrong, but the consequences of accepting that claim as true if it's false are fewer.

So, your depiction of the meaning of the response of 'atheists' to your thought experiment (I think you'll find that many deists will also not believe in faith healing) is wrong. Denying evidence is not denying that the thing happened, it is denying that you have a basis to claim that it did.

In the situation where people do deny that it happened, people are considering the likelihood of alternate hypotheses. We do have evidence that people's hands don't spontaneously grow back. We also have evidence that people who attend faith healing sessions are often tricked by visual illusions (e.g. the trick where it's suggested that someone's legs are of different lengths and that the faith healing can fix this) In this case, the evidence that 'it didn't happen' is an analogy from similar cases that show that faith healing in general doesn't work as it is claimed to. Similar to how we might assume that an individual bear cannot run at 200km/hr because other bears cannot run at 200km/hr, and bears don't tend to vary much. Our knowledge of other situations allows us to make predictions for new situations. In the case of faith healing - that miracle cures turn out to be no such thing when properly investigated.

Yes, the court will accept eyewitness accounts, but science requires a higher standard of evidence. It's notable that in court a large number of people have been convicted based on eyewitness acounts that turned out to be incorrect. See e.g. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/aug/18/eyewitness-evidence-wrongful-conviction

 

[As I was saying]

Thanks for the laugh. First you use the Guardian a left wing newspaper for your evidence. That's a joke to start with. Then there is the deceived with a magic trick. Yeah that is right. I slipped a prosthetic out of my sleeve and slipped it on his arm to make it look like he grew a hand. Pity no one saw me do it and pity the young man had a normal hand. But of course he was deceived as it was there all the time. He just conjured up the story to get a bit of publicity for himself.

I have a a very strong feeling that if the young man had come up to you before the meeting and punched you in the face with the stub and then after the meeting and punched you in the face with a fist that included five fingers, you would claim that it was all trickery.

I wish you could see how stupid you look with all your suppositions and this that and the other as to why it didn't happen. You are totally and utterly deluded in thinking that such miracles do not happen but then what is new. Atheists have been trying to convince themselves for years that miracles do not happen. I say that advisedly as you are convincing no one else.

Be my guest and we will carry on experiencing God's miracles that take place on a daily basis and thank him that he is a God of love and wholeness and leave you cynical and sad atheists to wallow in their "I know everything" mentality that stops them from knowing anything.

I don't think I have ever seen a person who is deceived by satan as much as you are. You are totally blind to the truth which you obviously can't handle and to hide the fact you have to appear all sanctimonious and superior to everyone else giving us all your preposterous theories about why this or that didn't happen because you say they don't.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Thanks for the laugh. First you use the Guardian a left wing newspaper for your evidence. That's a joke to start with.

Not a joke, I would say. But, it's reasonable for you to ask for stronger evidnence than a newspaper article. Here is some.

http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue One/fisher&tversky.htm By academics, but not referenced to explict research.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/ Scientific American, but not referenced.
http://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-1-4614-5690-2_670 Better. Over 75% of convinctions overturned given DNA evidence were due to faulty eyewitness testimony.

There are loads more.

Then their is the deceived with a magic trick. Yeah that is right. I slipped a prosthetic out of my sleeve and slipped it on his arm to make it look like he grew a hand. Pity no one saw me do it and pity the young man had a normal hand. But of course he was deceived as it was there all the time. He just conjured up the story to get a bit of publicity for himself.

People can easily be fooled by magic tricks. In faith healing a common one is to adjust someone's shoe so that it looks like their legs are of different lengths and then 'healing' that. Here is a list of faith healing illusions and how they are performed. http://wizbangpop.com/2010/04/13/stage-tricks-of-tv-faith-healers-revealed.php

There is plenty of evidence of illusion and deception in faith healing, that's why we need strong evidence to back up claims. To rule out the possibility of illusion and deception, as well as other mistaken beliefs leading to claims.

I have a a very strong feeling that if the young man had come up to you before the meeting and punched you in the face with the stub and then after the meeting and punched you in the face with a fist that included five fingers, you would claim that it was all trickery.

I wish you could see how stupid you look with all your suppositions and this that and the other as to why it didn't happen. You are totally and utterly deluded in thinking that such miracles do not happen but then what is new. Atheists have been trying to convince themselves for years that miracles do not happen. I say that advisedly as you are convincing no one else.

We need strong objective evidence for the faith healing.

If faith healing did actually work, it would be very easy to obtain strong evidence for it. People who perform faith healing clearly want people to believe it. E.g. testimonials put up on faith healing churches' websites. Why hasn't the strong evidence been gathered? We've already discussed several ways that strong evidence could be gathered.

Be my guest and we will carry on experiencing God's miracles that take place on a daily basis and thank him that he is a God of love and wholeness and leave you cynical and sad atheists to wallow in their "I know everything" mentality that stops them from knowing anything.

Science is the opposite of 'I know everything', and is precisely the means by which we can find out something. E.g. is faith healing real or not?

 

[freezerman2000]

This is getting out of hand with the snarkiness.

 

[As I was saying]

After 27 hours in labor, Kelly-Anne’s body was still not ready for the delivery, but she felt it was time push anyway and called for help. After some struggle, their baby was delivered—stillborn. The extended delivery time coupled with a pair of morphine injections had left the Esau’s son limp, blue, breathless, lifeless.The delivery room staff went into a frenzy, trying to resuscitate baby Esau. As Junaid and Kelly-Anne tried to process what was happening, conflict rose in Junaid’s heart. Faced with the scene in the hospital, he struggled to reconcile what he could see, with what he knew to be true…that God had blessed the Esaus with a son.”[Thoughts] went from a joy and a peace, to where what I saw (the nurses frantically busy with Ben) started encroaching on that—I almost felt helpless. Then, I chose the side of God, and I took my eyes off the situation, and focused on the Lord,” Junaid said.

The couple made their stand. Junaid declared that they would have a perfectly normal baby boy, and Kelly-Anne began to speak life over the baby, prophesying that he would live and not die, and calling out the things that he would accomplish one day. God’s Peace flooded the Esaus after their declaration. As the hospital staff continued to scramble, Junaid called his pastor, Andrew Lamb. After explaining the situation, Junaid asked for prayer. As Pastor Lamb brought his prayer to a close, and the two said amen, the baby’s chest rose, filling with his first breath.

Benjamin Esau was alive.

 

[As I was saying]

Women Instantly Healed of COPD and confirmed by her Doctor!

Two weeks ago, my wife Laury and our friend Garth prayed over this woman Cheryl who suffered from COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease), which is a disease that makes it very hard to breath, is incurable by conventional means, and usually gets worse with time.

When they prayed, they commanded it to go and she was instantly healed from that disease. Garth had her test it and take a deep breath and she had no more difficulty breathing. She then went to her pulmonary doctor last week and the doctor confirmed that she no longer had any COPD and he said was completely healed and that he was making a permanent note/record of such in her files.

 

[As I was saying]

Zulma went on to say she had lost her faith and only recently got some back because of her sister. She goes on to say that she was in the park because she had wanted to go sit alone for a bit because her and her family were going to a meeting at the hospital that day, to “pull the plug” on her brother who was in a coma.

As she said that my faith started to rise and I told her that her brother will live and not die. I prayed that God would send ministering angels to him while in the coma. I declared her brother would come out of the coma as a brand new person and that her faith, her family, and her life would not be the same from such a miracle.

We were there for maybe 40 minutes. We all prayed for her brother. I read 1 Cor 13 to her and then played a song. Then we hugged her and we all went on our way.

A few hours later we were heading back to the car. She saw us at about 4:15. She yelled to me and said…two hours ago my brother woke up!”

He awoke at almost the exact time of the prayers- wow, that’s faith in action!!!

 

[As I was saying]

Baby miracle testimony:

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much James 5:16

Back in July our friends Mike and Karen asked us to pray for baby Collin. After some difficulties during child birth, Colin had just been born with severe complications. He was born with blood on his brain, and struggling to breath/survive. His life was in serious danger with talk of not making it or at a minimum, they said he would likely have brain damage.

We prayed one Saturday while on the streets with our prayer team including several other days with Laury and I individually declaring that the baby would recover fully with no side effects, in the mighty name of Jesus. In fact, there were a whole lot of people offering fervent prayer on behalf of baby Colin and his mother.

But almost immediately, prayers were answered and Collin started to quickly improve. Within a couple weeks he was feeding normal, and off the respirators and feeding tubes. The term kept coming up “miraculous” with the doctors and nurses and Collin was called the “miracle baby” when he was released with no ailments, no brain damage, and perfectly healthy on August 13th. To God be the Glory! Amen

 

[malvina]

"I don't have time to read fairy stories. I have read umpteen books on the subject already that have as their main aim the truth. Their authors without exception were Ph.Ds and they taught at places like Yale, Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge universities".
This made me smile... God said, 'I will make wise men look fools'

 

[TheQuietRiot]

Baby miracle testimony:

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much James 5:16

Back in July our friends Mike and Karen asked us to pray for baby Collin. After some difficulties during child birth, Colin had just been born with severe complications. He was born with blood on his brain, and struggling to breath/survive. His life was in serious danger with talk of not making it or at a minimum, they said he would likely have brain damage.

We prayed one Saturday while on the streets with our prayer team including several other days with Laury and I individually declaring that the baby would recover fully with no side effects, in the mighty name of Jesus. In fact, there were a whole lot of people offering fervent prayer on behalf of baby Colin and his mother.

But almost immediately, prayers were answered and Collin started to quickly improve. Within a couple weeks he was feeding normal, and off the respirators and feeding tubes. The term kept coming up “miraculous” with the doctors and nurses and Collin was called the “miracle baby” when he was released with no ailments, no brain damage, and perfectly healthy on August 13th. To God be the Glory! Amen

What do these stories have to do with evolution or abiogenesis?

But since you started posting them.. got a good story on an amputee praying and having his limb regrow?

 

[As I was saying]

"I don't have time to read fairy stories. I have read umpteen books on the subject already that have as their main aim the truth. Their authors without exception were Ph.Ds and they taught at places like Yale, Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge universities".
This made me smile... God said, 'I will make wise men look fools'

So christians who are learned men who debunk atheism and evolution are fools?

 

[As I was saying]

What do these stories have to do with evolution or abiogenesis?

But since you started posting them.. got a good story on an amputee praying and having his limb regrow?

Can't give you that because someone asked what it has to do with evolution and abiogenesis.

 

[Jimmy D]

This thread's taken an unusual turn. If you pointed us to website you got these stories from we could read them for ourselves rather than spamming here.

 

[crjmurray]

This thread's taken an unusual turn. If you pointed us to website you got these stories from we could read them for ourselves rather than spamming here.

Documentedhealings.com