A Voice of Dissent in the Orthodox Church

[Michael G]

I get what you are saying, nutroll, but I mean, at the same time, we all have to think about and plan oru futures at some point - even if those plans change and we trust God to lead us - we still need plans.

Justin I have to agree with Nutroll here. Every time I try to plan something out long term in my life my loving and gracious eternal father has thrown a giant curveball into those plans.

 

[gzt]

Epiphanius: I would recommend something better. Supposing he were right, then it should not be an issue for at least 4 years. So he has 4 years to put aside the issue and work hard on the Christian life as I have suggested. At that point, illumined by 4 hard years of work on the Christian life and mature enough to responsibly think about marriage, he can think about the path he will choose.

Frankly, I'm a lot more concerned about heterosexuals at his age, not only because I've been one in the recent past, but because of how likely they are to do stupid stuff since any mistakes a straight guy makes are okay. I have the same advice for them.

 

[Greg the byzantine]

Sweetheart, we haven't forgotten that...but in the light of God's commandments...it's an abomination...

Do we not sing during the Great Doxology every Sunday:

"Blessed are you oh Lord, teach me Your commandments"

does that teaching stop at our heads or do we actually take those commandments into our hearts and exhibit those commands in how we live our lives in obedience?

It's not easy to deny some of our fleshy passions, but if those passions are in direct opposition to God's commands, then we must...if we are truly servants of God.

I'm sure it feels like people are forgetting that, but I don't think they are. I think that part of the problem is that when people talk about homosexuality they are quick to condemn, but far too often they just wink and nod when it comes to premarital or extramarital sex. I am unmarried, and as such, my struggle is the same as yours. For me to have sex outside of marriage would be a sin. Now I am purposefully making this about sex because quite frankly we are both allowed to love others fully, completely, and without reservation. It is sex that is not allowed to either of us. Now it is true that there are certain other activities that would not be advisable because they are likely to lead to sex, but these really apply to anyone who is not married and is serious about staying chaste.

Now I know you well enough to know that you would counter by saying that if I found someone I loved and wanted to marry them I could, while you could not. But if we are really serious about our Christian struggle, we must recognize that until this is actually the case, it is pointless to dwell on fantasies and possibilities. It is no more right for me to spend my days thinking about the life I want to have, and the kind of person I want to spend my life with, etc. than it is for you to dwell on the same things. We are to seek God's will for our lives, not draw up a map for our own lives.

There may come a day when you meet someone that you can envision spending the rest of your life with, and that day may come for me as well. In that moment, I will admit that your decision will be much more difficult and potentially painful for you. But unless you are there now, it does no good to torture yourself with thoughts of what could be. Even if the Church were to suddenly decide that it will marry gay people (which, it seems to me, is much less likely than the possibility that you will just wake up one day liking girls), you could still end up not meeting someone and spend the rest of your days alone.

Our goal as Christians is not to try to make a good life for ourselves. It is hard to look at Christians that have a good life and still bear that in mind, but it is the truth. Our goal is to seek out the will of God, and to do it. We can't do that so long as we are wrapped up in our own plans, our own dreams, and our own desires. So seek to remove those things from your life so that you can find God's will. If you find that one day you are faced with this choice, at least you will know what you are choosing between.

I know from experience that trying to live your life with your head in a possible future is next to impossible. We need to learn to live in Christ on the path He sets before us. This is hard, but unlike the alternative, it is really life.

Quoted for emphasis.

Blessed are you Oh Lord, Teach me thy statutes.

 

[AureateDawn]

Now I know you well enough to know that you would counter by saying that if I found someone I loved and wanted to marry them I could, while you could not. But if we are really serious about our Christian struggle, we must recognize that until this is actually the case, it is pointless to dwell on fantasies and possibilities. It is no more right for me to spend my days thinking about the life I want to have, and the kind of person I want to spend my life with, etc. than it is for you to dwell on the same things. We are to seek God's will for our lives, not draw up a map for our own lives.

I was gonna let this one by, and just say "Ya, he's right." And yes, you are right.

But it still doesn't work like that.

Even if I am not dwelling on such things, the point still remains that marriage is an impossibility for me as opposed to the majority of other people.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Even if I am not dwelling on such things, the point still remains that marriage is an impossibility for me as opposed to the majority of other people.

While I can see how you may think this is God's way of punishing you, it is actually God's way of helping you. If we examine each commandment that God has given us, it truly is for our benefit -- not HIS.

God is the all knowing, all powerful creator. He does not NEED commandments. WE do. Take for example the commandment "You shall not murder." (Exodus 20:13.) Aside from God not wanting us to destroy what has been created in His image, God knows the pain and agony murder creates for the victim's families. I mean, I don't think I need to go on for very long as to why murder is bad.

So you may be saying "Okay Maureen, I get why murder is bad, but what about homosexuality? I mean God tells us to love one another, so what is wrong with me loving a person of the same gender?"

The thing is that the genders truly are meant to balance one another out. There are traits that women have balance men out and vice versa. For example, women are generally known to be more nurturing, and men to be physically strong. When a healthy family unit is in place, we see how this works. In a homosexual relationship, the roles are skewed, so generally one member starts to take on the traits of the oppisite sex to compensate for this. (i.e. efeminate males, masculine females.) God designed the family unit to be Male/Female, not Male/Male, Female/Female. This was exemplified in the Old Testament with Adam and Eve, and in the New Testament with Mary and Joseph. Nowhere in the Bible is a homosexual couple introduced as an example of life with Christ. Now before we start saying how the Bible was written in a time when this was all taboo, let's all remember that homosexual relationships were openly practiced in Egyptian, Greek, and Roman societies when the Bible was written. If God wanted this to be included, there certainly were ample examples for Him to do so. God chose not to use homosexual relationships as an example because they are spiritually detrimental to us and emotionally unhealthy.

As I said before, I have two cousins that are openly gay, and they are not happy human beings. One has tried to kill himself on numerous occasions, and the other goes through relationships like they were tissues.

I know that this is a cross for you to bear brother, but whether you believe it or not, we all have crosses that are equally difficult for us to bear. For some it is gluttony, others it is alcoholism, and for others it is something completely different. But we must lean on Christ to help us bear these crosses, and to be closer to Him.

We cannot pick and choose which of God's commandments we want to follow and call ourselves "Orthodox." Cafeteria style faith has no place here. We must strive to follow all of God's commandments every day. As difficult as it is.

I will pray for you Justin, and ask that you do the same for me.

In XC,

Maureen

 

[AureateDawn]

The thing is that the genders truly are meant to balance one another out. There are traits that women have balance men out and vice versa. For example, women are generally known to be more nurturing, and men to be physically strong. When a healthy family unit is in place, we see how this works. In a homosexual relationship, the roles are skewed, so generally one member starts to take on the traits of the oppisite sex to compensate for this. (i.e. efeminate males, masculine females.) God designed the family unit to be Male/Female, not Male/Male, Female/Female. This was exemplified in the Old Testament with Adam and Eve, and in the New Testament with Mary and Joseph.

First, there are plenty of "effeminate" males - both gay and straight. I am a male, and I am loving and nurturing. I like to sew, and read, and write. I really like hugs. I adore animals and can't imagine killing anything. I don't like football. I don't like beer. I don't like being punched on the shoulder by friends. I can't fix a car. I like to be outside to enjoy nature - not hunt. I am not strong... I can go on and on.

I get that there are specific gender roles, and we are made different, but you can't just lump everyone into the same category, and say that men are strong and cannot be nurturing, or cannot be the one staying home with the kids and cooking.

Nowhere in the Bible is a homosexual couple introduced as an example of life with Christ. Now before we start saying how the Bible was written in a time when this was all taboo, let's all remember that homosexual relationships were openly practiced in Egyptian, Greek, and Roman societies when the Bible was written.

Even in those cultures, it was still rather taboo. There has never been homosexual relationships in the same way there is today. Previous societies throughout history just had "sodomy" - gay sex, or pedophilia, etc. Never until modern times has the concept of marrying the same person of another sex came into consideration. The same-sex sexual relationships of history were played out very differently than they are today.

God chose not to use homosexual relationships as an example because they are spiritually detrimental to us and emotionally unhealthy.

Please elaborate?

As I said before, I have two cousins that are openly gay, and they are not happy human beings. One has tried to kill himself on numerous occasions, and the other goes through relationships like they were tissues.

Suicidal tendencies like that are likely due to one of three things: mental disorder, not being accepted by society, not being accepted by the Church.

You can't just say "all gays are promiscuous and unhappy." If we could lump people into categories like that, I could say "all straight people are materialistic and get divorced."

I know that this is a cross for you to bear brother, but whether you believe it or not, we all have crosses that are equally difficult for us to bear. For some it is gluttony, others it is alcoholism, and for others it is something completely different. But we must lean on Christ to help us bear these crosses, and to be closer to Him.

Yes, those are crosses, and they are hard. But there really is no comparison to be used - alcoholism, gluttony, etc. cannot be compared to the longing for another person and being denied family and love and marriage. And I get that people with alcohol issues (such as myself... oh, hey, and gluttony, too, since it was mentioned) might not be able to marry for various reasons, but, it's just not the same situation. At all.

 

[Greg the byzantine]

genesis 2-24

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Cleave to his wife not his gay lover.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

First, there are plenty of "effeminate" males - both gay and straight. I am a male, and I am loving and nurturing. I like to sew, and read, and write. I really like hugs. I adore animals and can't imagine killing anything. I don't like football. I don't like beer. I don't like being punched on the shoulder by friends. I can't fix a car. I like to be outside to enjoy nature - not hunt. I am not strong... I can go on and on.

I get that there are specific gender roles, and we are made different, but you can't just lump everyone into the same category, and say that men are strong and cannot be nurturing, or cannot be the one staying home with the kids and cooking.

I never said all men are strong and all women are nurturing. It was an example, not to be seen as a rule. Futhermore, the fact that homosexuals cannot procreate is further example and reason as to why the two genders are neccasary in a relationship. The balance of the two genders are needed for a healthy example for the child. This is one of the reasons divorce and single parent homes are so unhealthy for children; they do not have a balanced example of what each gender's role is supposed to be.

Even in those cultures, it was still rather taboo. There has never been homosexual relationships in the same way there is today. Previous societies throughout history just had "sodomy" - gay sex, or pedophilia, etc. Never until modern times has the concept of marrying the same person of another sex came into consideration. The same-sex sexual relationships of history were played out very differently than they are today.

Actually there is documentation from the 1400's in France where men were allowed to marry men. Furthermore, your statement further proves my point that homosexuality is unhealthy.

Please elaborate?

I can't elaborate on what doesn't exist. There are no examples in the Bible of a healthy homosexual relationship. If you can find me one to prove me wrong, go ahead and do it. All examples of all healthy relationships in the Bible (Adam & Eve, Ruth & Boaz, Mary & Joseph) are between two oppisite genders. Even Christ in His parables used the example of the Bridegroom & the Bride.

Suicidal tendencies like that are likely due to one of three things: mental disorder, not being accepted by society, not being accepted by the Church.

You can't just say "all gays are promiscuous and unhappy." If we could lump people into categories like that, I could say "all straight people are materialistic and get divorced."

I'm not saying all homosexuals are unhappy and suicidal, however it is scientifically proven that suicide and promiscuity in the homosexual community is higher than the heterosexual community.

Yes, those are crosses, and they are hard. But there really is no comparison to be used - alcoholism, gluttony, etc. cannot be compared to the longing for another person and being denied family and love and marriage. And I get that people with alcohol issues (such as myself... oh, hey, and gluttony, too, since it was mentioned) might not be able to marry for various reasons, but, it's just not the same situation. At all.

They may not be the same situation but they all have the same solution: Christ. Also, you may not think alcoholism is as bad as homosexuality, but tell that to the alcoholic. Who are you to judge that your burden is worse than another's? That is the devil trying to tell you that your situation cannot be helped by Christ, and that He does not care about you, when the exact oppisite is true.

As someone else on this thread mentioned (I believe it was gzt), all Christ promised us was suffering. We suffer on earth to receive our reward in heaven. Nothing else has ever been promised to us.

Furthermore, God did not design us to fail. If God wanted us to fail in our struggle, He would not have sent His son down to die for us. Through Christ we have redemption; through Christ we do not fail. Through Christ, failure is not an option.

While you cannot win this fight on your own, you CAN through Christ!

As St. Paul writes in his letter to the Romans:

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”


Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:18-39

 

[Greg the byzantine]

Yes, those are crosses, and they are hard. But there really is no comparison to be used - alcoholism, gluttony, etc. cannot be compared to the longing for another person and being denied family and love and marriage. And I get that people with alcohol issues (such as myself... oh, hey, and gluttony, too, since it was mentioned) might not be able to marry for various reasons, but, it's just not the same situation. At all.

There are lots of reasons why a person might not be married, due to no fault of their own, whether it's impotence, disease, injury, lack of money, etc. Don't you think it's hard for them too? That they might desire a family, closeness, intimacy? Their cross is just as hard to bear Justin.

The burden is lighter when you focus elsewhere Justin, that goes for any burden you have.

Read the psalter, It's amazing.

 

[AureateDawn]

Futhermore, the fact that homosexuals cannot procreate is further example and reason as to why the two genders are neccasary in a relationship.

What does this say about infertile couples?

I can't elaborate on what doesn't exist. There are no examples in the Bible of a healthy homosexual relationship. If you can find me one to prove me wrong, go ahead and do it. All examples of all healthy relationships in the Bible (Adam & Eve, Ruth & Boaz, Mary & Joseph) are between two oppisite genders. Even Christ in His parables used the example of the Bridegroom & the Bride.

You can at least give an example of how a homosexual relationship is supposedly unhealthy. There are plenty of things not mentioned in the Bible that are healthy like that.

I'm not saying all homosexuals are unhappy and suicidal, however it is scientifically proven that suicide and promiscuity in the homosexual community is higher than the heterosexual community.

Again, that's probably because society, generally, rejects them, and their religious backgrounds don't do much in trying to understand them (even if they hold their firm "anti-gay" stance - the religious groups do very little overall for such an important issue). Not to mention rejection from their only family and best friends.

They may not be the same situation but they all have the same solution: Christ. Also, you may not think alcoholism is as bad as homosexuality, but tell that to the alcoholic. Who are you to judge that your burden is worse than another's? That is the devil trying to tell you that your situation cannot be helped by Christ, and that He does not care about you, when the exact oppisite is true.

I'm not saying it's not as bad. I'm 17 and struggle with alcoholism. I am saying it's different, and cannot be compared to alcoholism except for, perhaps, the fact that it is a sin.

 

[Hoankan]

I was going to write more but Handmaiden speaks better than I ever could so I will keep it short.

I read what you say Justin and I look at all the brokenness my friends have been through, all the pain in my family, and all the destruction I have unleashed in my own life. Yes, you're problems are different from any of the others, but they are not by any means special. You want something, namely love and it tortures you so very much. It consumes you (how many times have we gone through this?) and you struggle with why you cannot have what others are entitled to. Yes, you carry a huge burden, but so do many other people, some far far blacker than I would ever want to write on a discussion board.

The truth is, none of us are entitled to anything. What we get are gifts from God. If Elder Paisios could thank God for just having the gift to sit without feeling pain for a short time or if a mother can thank God for the gift she can give her children enough food to feed them one time a day, how can we claim that we are entitled to anything we have? How can we claim to be entitled to life when children die of hunger and babies are killed before they are even born? Our sense of entitlement is destructive to our spiritual well being.

Be thankful you have what you have Justin and look to give love not to get it. Don't limit love to that which you want. Give what you can to others. Give them kindness and what you can. Give them the love you have and ask for nothing in return. Look to what you have, not what you want.

 

[AureateDawn]

There are lots of reasons why a person might not be married, due to no fault of their own, whether it's impotence, disease, injury, lack of money, etc. Don't you think it's hard for them too? That they might desire a family, closeness, intimacy? Their cross is just as hard to bear Justin.

Sure, yes, it is. People in those situations can far more readily be compared to the homosexual as opposed to the sins of alcoholism and gluttony, etc. (Though, also, they can get over those things, generally speaking, whereas the homosexual can't "get over" being gay. Again, I say this not to say that one is worse than the other, but to point out very important differences).

 

[Gwenyfur]

There are lots of reasons why a person might not be married, due to no fault of their own, whether it's impotence, disease, injury, lack of money, etc. Don't you think it's hard for them too? That they might desire a family, closeness, intimacy? Their cross is just as hard to bear Justin.

The burden is lighter when you focus elsewhere Justin, that goes for any burden you have.

Read the psalter, It's amazing.

Exactly Greg...

My uncle is now 61 years of age...he's still single...
All his life all he's ever truly wanted was a wife and children...

He's never married, never had children...and has let his bitterness and resentment toward God for this apparent "lack" in his life destroy his faith and in doing, destroy his ability to truly love anyone...

Do not let this be you, but instead accept God's will and live in the knowledge that His plans for you are meant for Good...not evil...

 

[Zoness]

Multi-Post

Yeah I am dating, I have been dating since I was 13 -- that has been pretty universal among my friends and most kids now. I have a limited biological family and no church family and my girlfriend helps me through a lot I don't want to ruin that. I know what your saying I understand the gravity of what i am doing. I would venture to say that I am doing the best out of everyone I know actually.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

What does this say about infertile couples?

With an infertile couple it is because someone is suffering from a physical defect/illness that is a result of our fallen nature. We can thank Adam & Eve for that. Because of their sin we live in a world where sickness and death are part of life on this planet. Unfortunately for these couples, infertility is part of that. The differance here is that they are victim's of a sin that is not their fault. With a homosexual couple, the sin is their fault.

You can at least give an example of how a homosexual relationship is supposedly unhealthy. There are plenty of things not mentioned in the Bible that are healthy like that.

Okay, here are examples from the Bible as to how homosexuality is unhealthy:

If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13

Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Corinthians 7-20

Again, that's probably because society, generally, rejects them, and their religious backgrounds don't do much in trying to understand them (even if they hold their firm "anti-gay" stance - the religious groups do very little overall for such an important issue). Not to mention rejection from their only family and best friends.

I will not deny that society has often been less than sensitive to this issue. But sensitivity should not be mistaken with condoning an action. As the old saying goes, hate the sin, love the sinner.

My question to you is, what would you like the Church to do for you? Acknowledging that homosexuality is a sin, how would you like the Church to help you? This is an honest question, not bait for debate.

I'm not saying it's not as bad. I'm 17 and struggle with alcoholism. I am saying it's different, and cannot be compared to alcoholism except for, perhaps, the fact that it is a sin.

Sin is sin. All sin can be conquered with Christ. You seem to think that this is the exception.

At this point, I'm not sure what you want us to say Justin. Do you want us to say it's okay for you to be in a romantic relationship with a male? Do you want us to embrace such a relationship?

We cannot do so.

If you want us to pray with you and help you with your struggle to overcome your sin, we are happy to help you, but I'm not sure what you want at this point.

 

[AureateDawn]

With an infertile couple it is because someone is suffering from a physical defect/illness that is a result of our fallen nature. We can thank Adam & Eve for that. Because of their sin we live in a world where sickness and death are part of life on this planet. Unfortunately for these couples, infertility is part of that. The differance here is that they are victim's of a sin that is not their fault. With a homosexual couple, the sin is their fault.

Whoa. OK, I have agreed with you on everything up to this point... and now I am trying to keep a steady head. You say an infertile couple is a victim of sin and of the Fall. The homosexual is a victim of sin and of the Fall, too. How, pray tell, can you suggest that it's a homosexual's fault that he is gay, but it's not the infertile man's fault that he (or she) is infertile?! Seriously, this bewilders me. Gay people don't choose it, and it's not their fault, either.

Okay, here are examples from the Bible as to how homosexuality is unhealthy:

That talks about sex. It mentions nothing of love or a non-sexual romantic relationship (And, before anyone says this is not possible, it is, though it might be difficult. Plenty of Protestant Christians who are gay live like this).

My question to you is, what would you like the Church to do for you? Acknowledging that homosexuality is a sin, how would you like the Church to help you? This is an honest question, not bait for debate.

I have no idea. I am not a counselor, I am not a priest. I'm just saying that it's dealt very harshly. However, in Orthodox, it is much better dealt with than, say, by Baptists. But even in Orthodoxy, while there is more compassion, it is still essentially being said: "You're gay. Get over it. Love God. Blah blah. Get over it."

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Whoa. OK, I have agreed with you on everything up to this point... and now I am trying to keep a steady head. You say an infertile couple is a victim of sin and of the Fall. The homosexual is a victim of sin and of the Fall, too. How, pray tell, can you suggest that it's a homosexual's fault that he is gay, but it's not the infertile man's fault that he (or she) is infertile?! Seriously, this bewilders me. Gay people don't choose it, and it's not their fault, either.

You asked me to explain why an infertile couple could not have children verses a gay couple. While a homosexual person does not choose to be gay, they DO however, choose to act on that impulse. THAT is the differance. The infertile couple did nothing wrong being in a heterosexual marriage. Please do not twist my words.

That talks about sex. It mentions nothing of love or a non-sexual romantic relationship (And, before anyone says this is not possible, it is, though it might be difficult. Plenty of Protestant Christians who are gay live like this).

There is nothing wrong with loving anyone of any gender. Christ commanded us to love one another. However, when you are loving someone in a romantic sense that is the same gender of you, you can't tell me that you aren't upping the anty on the temptation button. We are talking about the sin of homosexuality, so therefore I pulled the verses that referred to this.

I don't know what you want me to say? That it's okay for you to date men? That it's okay for you to be romantically involved with men? What is it you want?

I have no idea. I am not a counselor, I am not a priest. I'm just saying that it's dealt very harshly. However, in Orthodox, it is much better dealt with than, say, by Baptists. But even in Orthodoxy, while there is more compassion, it is still essentially being said: "You're gay. Get over it. Love God. Blah blah. Get over it."

The Church does not just say "get over it!" Like any other sin, they expect you to work through it by prayer, fasting, speaking with your spiritual father, reading the scriptures, and following the tools the Orthodox Church has given us to get through our struggles with every other sin. It is a daily struggle. One that you CAN overcome. You have to stop classifying this as a "special" sin that can't be dealt with. This sin, like every other sin, CAN be dealt with.

Are you familiar with the ladder of divine ascent? I believe if you study this, it may help you in your struggles.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Justin sweetie...even St Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles lived with a thorn in his flesh, but he didn't let it sway him from the path God laid before him...

We aren't told what that thorn was...

2Cor 12:6-10

6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.


7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[AureateDawn]

You asked me to explain why an infertile couple could not have children verses a gay couple. While a homosexual person does not choose to be gay, they DO however, choose to act on that impulse. THAT is the differance. The infertile couple did nothing wrong being in a heterosexual marriage. Please do not twist my words.

Are you familiar with the ladder of divine ascent? I believe if you study this, it may help you in your struggles.

An infertile couple acts on their impulses and desires to get married, though... so.... I'm not seeing the difference. The infertile couple CHOOSES to act on those impulses, just, for example, as a gay man, or other person, would.

Yes, I am familiar with it.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

An infertile couple acts on their impulses and desires to get married, though... so.... I'm not seeing the difference. The infertile couple CHOOSES to act on those impulses, just, for example, as a gay man, or other person, would.

The differance being that the infertile couple is following God's commandments and the homosexual couple is not. Heterosexual marriage is blessed by God. Homosexual relations are not.