A Voice of Dissent in the Orthodox Church

[Greg the byzantine]

When we start to think, and discuss more about sex then about God I think we begin to have a problem.

 

[Aesjn]

Right. Because love is wrong, and love is a passion, right?

When the word "passion" is used in this context it has a different meaning from the usually meaning in English. I think the Orthodox understanding is pretty similiar to the Stoic one (I could be wrong!), passions are feelings that well up in us like fire and cause us to feel pain, anger, lust, anything that causes us to loose control, act without reason and generally immoral. It's different from "I love to paint, it's a passion of mine!" In Greek the word used was "pathe" and we get the words "pathology" and "pathological" from it. And there are different kinds of "love", platonic, agapic, and erotic... some kinds of "love" are passions, others are not.

 

[rusmeister]

Most seriously, man, you're 17. You have plenty of time when you're older to start thinking about sex. For a good proportion of people, you really shouldn't be thinking about marriage and crap for at least 4 or 5 more years. So first you should focus on who God is, who Jesus Christ is, and how you should live. Read the Gospels, pray the Psalms, give alms, do your work in school and on the job with your best effort, love your enemies, attend the church services regularly, don't waste your time on teh internets. Start slowly, even if it's only 15 minutes of silence before God. Christ only promised us suffering. The truth will wound us. Take up your cross and follow. Do that for a few years and when you're old enough for real relations, then you can think about it. I think it's worthless to discuss and debate theology without that very real prerequisite in place, the hard search for truth as the Church has told us, and that it's further worthless to discuss these things which would be theoretical at this stage in your life even if you were right.

For me, this is just further evidence of what our public schools have become - and this includes all western nations, not only American - the school design and operating principles are pretty much the same everywhere now, for the simple reason that they produce a product beneficial to both big government and big business, if not to the individual.

It's not Justin's (or any young person's) fault - the typical public high school now has mechanisms that encourage children to think of sex, to dress as they wish (and thus think of sex more), to teach that sinful lifestyles are normal, that sexual activity without marriage and responsibility is normal, "GBLT/Gay-Straight Alliances" actively promote these things, condoms are offered to children/teens - it is practically impossible for children to withstand these temptations and lies. But it is predictable that many will abandon chastity, experiment with abomination (and call it "orientation", see it as a natural state and be indignant that anyone should think otherwise).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7684810.stm

And yes, Justin, listen to what the others have said (I expect I'm one of the less popular voices). Pray and seek the Church's guidance. Dissent is alien to the Church. Its nature is submission, not dissent.

 

[Gwenyfur]

For me, this is just further evidence of what our public schools have become - and this includes all western nations, not only American - the school design and operating principles are pretty much the same everywhere now, for the simple reason that they produce a product beneficial to both big government and big business, if not to the individual.

It's not Justin's (or any young person's) fault - the typical public high school now has mechanisms that encourage children to think of sex, to dress as they wish (and thus think of sex more), to teach that sinful lifestyles are normal, that sexual activity without marriage and responsibility is normal, "GBLT/Gay-Straight Alliances" actively promote these things, condoms are offered to children/teens - it is practically impossible for children to withstand these temptations and lies. But it is predictable that many will abandon chastity, experiment with abomination (and call it "orientation", see it as a natural state and be indignant that anyone should think otherwise).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7684810.stm

And yes, Justin, listen to what the others have said (I expect I'm one of the less popular voices). Pray and seek the Church's guidance. Dissent is alien to the Church. Its nature is submission, not dissent.

QFT

 

[127.0.0.1]

Public Schools suck yes. But I have a felling that Phil & Mary were out behind the barn, "experimenting" loooooong before there was any sex-ed. And of course leaving it up to the parents doesn't work, because the parents never talk about it (mine sure don't, not that I'm complaining). The kids are just expected to know it all...somehow...because everyone else is too uncomfortable to tell them.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Anyone else notice we lost Justin along the way?

You still there Justin?

 

[AureateDawn]

Yes. Just reading the discussion as it progresses. =/

I think a lot of people are forgetting that, the same thing a man feels for a woman or a woman feels for a man, the same emotions and feelings and love... gay people feel those, too.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Sweetheart, we haven't forgotten that...but in the light of God's commandments...it's an abomination...

Do we not sing during the Great Doxology every Sunday:

"Blessed are you oh Lord, teach me Your commandments"

does that teaching stop at our heads or do we actually take those commandments into our hearts and exhibit those commands in how we live our lives in obedience?

It's not easy to deny some of our fleshy passions, but if those passions are in direct opposition to God's commands, then we must...if we are truly servants of God.

 

[Hoankan]

Sweetheart, we haven't forgotten that...but in the light of God's commandments...it's an abomination...

Do we not sing during the Great Doxology every Sunday:

"Blessed are you oh Lord, teach me Your commandments"

does that teaching stop at our heads or do we actually take those commandments into our hearts and exhibit those commands in how we live our lives in obedience?

It's not easy to deny some of our fleshy passions, but if those passions are in direct opposition to God's commands, then we must...if we are truly servants of God.

 

[nutroll]

I think a lot of people are forgetting that, the same thing a man feels for a woman or a woman feels for a man, the same emotions and feelings and love... gay people feel those, too.

I'm sure it feels like people are forgetting that, but I don't think they are. I think that part of the problem is that when people talk about homosexuality they are quick to condemn, but far too often they just wink and nod when it comes to premarital or extramarital sex. I am unmarried, and as such, my struggle is the same as yours. For me to have sex outside of marriage would be a sin. Now I am purposefully making this about sex because quite frankly we are both allowed to love others fully, completely, and without reservation. It is sex that is not allowed to either of us. Now it is true that there are certain other activities that would not be advisable because they are likely to lead to sex, but these really apply to anyone who is not married and is serious about staying chaste.

Now I know you well enough to know that you would counter by saying that if I found someone I loved and wanted to marry them I could, while you could not. But if we are really serious about our Christian struggle, we must recognize that until this is actually the case, it is pointless to dwell on fantasies and possibilities. It is no more right for me to spend my days thinking about the life I want to have, and the kind of person I want to spend my life with, etc. than it is for you to dwell on the same things. We are to seek God's will for our lives, not draw up a map for our own lives.

There may come a day when you meet someone that you can envision spending the rest of your life with, and that day may come for me as well. In that moment, I will admit that your decision will be much more difficult and potentially painful for you. But unless you are there now, it does no good to torture yourself with thoughts of what could be. Even if the Church were to suddenly decide that it will marry gay people (which, it seems to me, is much less likely than the possibility that you will just wake up one day liking girls), you could still end up not meeting someone and spend the rest of your days alone.

Our goal as Christians is not to try to make a good life for ourselves. It is hard to look at Christians that have a good life and still bear that in mind, but it is the truth. Our goal is to seek out the will of God, and to do it. We can't do that so long as we are wrapped up in our own plans, our own dreams, and our own desires. So seek to remove those things from your life so that you can find God's will. If you find that one day you are faced with this choice, at least you will know what you are choosing between.

I know from experience that trying to live your life with your head in a possible future is next to impossible. We need to learn to live in Christ on the path He sets before us. This is hard, but unlike the alternative, it is really life.

 

[gzt]

nutroll: thank you for putting it better than I could, I was trying to drive at part of that.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

I'm sure it feels like people are forgetting that, but I don't think they are. I think that part of the problem is that when people talk about homosexuality they are quick to condemn, but far too often they just wink and nod when it comes to premarital or extramarital sex. I am unmarried, and as such, my struggle is the same as yours. For me to have sex outside of marriage would be a sin. Now I am purposefully making this about sex because quite frankly we are both allowed to love others fully, completely, and without reservation. It is sex that is not allowed to either of us. Now it is true that there are certain other activities that would not be advisable because they are likely to lead to sex, but these really apply to anyone who is not married and is serious about staying chaste.

Now I know you well enough to know that you would counter by saying that if I found someone I loved and wanted to marry them I could, while you could not. But if we are really serious about our Christian struggle, we must recognize that until this is actually the case, it is pointless to dwell on fantasies and possibilities. It is no more right for me to spend my days thinking about the life I want to have, and the kind of person I want to spend my life with, etc. than it is for you to dwell on the same things. We are to seek God's will for our lives, not draw up a map for our own lives.

There may come a day when you meet someone that you can envision spending the rest of your life with, and that day may come for me as well. In that moment, I will admit that your decision will be much more difficult and potentially painful for you. But unless you are there now, it does no good to torture yourself with thoughts of what could be. Even if the Church were to suddenly decide that it will marry gay people (which, it seems to me, is much less likely than the possibility that you will just wake up one day liking girls), you could still end up not meeting someone and spend the rest of your days alone.

Our goal as Christians is not to try to make a good life for ourselves. It is hard to look at Christians that have a good life and still bear that in mind, but it is the truth. Our goal is to seek out the will of God, and to do it. We can't do that so long as we are wrapped up in our own plans, our own dreams, and our own desires. So seek to remove those things from your life so that you can find God's will. If you find that one day you are faced with this choice, at least you will know what you are choosing between.

I know from experience that trying to live your life with your head in a possible future is next to impossible. We need to learn to live in Christ on the path He sets before us. This is hard, but unlike the alternative, it is really life.

The truth in this goes to depths beyond comprehension. God bless you.

 

[AureateDawn]

I get what you are saying, nutroll, but I mean, at the same time, we all have to think about and plan oru futures at some point - even if those plans change and we trust God to lead us - we still need plans.

 

[Zoness]

Most seriously, man, you're 17. You have plenty of time when you're older to start thinking about sex. For a good proportion of people, you really shouldn't be thinking about marriage and crap for at least 4 or 5 more years. So first you should focus on who God is, who Jesus Christ is, and how you should live. Read the Gospels, pray the Psalms, give alms, do your work in school and on the job with your best effort, love your enemies, attend the church services regularly, don't waste your time on teh internets. Start slowly, even if it's only 15 minutes of silence before God. Christ only promised us suffering. The truth will wound us. Take up your cross and follow. Do that for a few years and when you're old enough for real relations, then you can think about it. I think it's worthless to discuss and debate theology without that very real prerequisite in place, the hard search for truth as the Church has told us, and that it's further worthless to discuss these things which would be theoretical at this stage in your life even if you were right.

I'm not the OP starter so this may be out of line:

As someone in the public school system surrounded by my friends, all of which have had sex at younger ages, I can tell you right now that telling a 17 year old to just stop thinking about sex is not going to work, it just is not. As someone who attends random churches almost literally at a whim (After the RC I have no church home) it is hard to establish a doctrine, and a "church clique" so to speak because I don't stay in one place for too long. I don't struggle with homosexuality but I do struggle with pre-marital sex (which I have come close to, and will again frequently) which is apparently accepted nowadays. There is no consistency anymore in church structures so I have lost my faith in them so why should I conform to their ideals? Bear in mind, this is not an attack on the EO or any church in particular this is just a nearly universal standard of inconsistancy and extremes.

Finding a good church home is key or you are going to have a hard time growing in the Lord, trust me.

 

[nutroll]

I get what you are saying, nutroll, but I mean, at the same time, we all have to think about and plan oru futures at some point - even if those plans change and we trust God to lead us - we still need plans.

That is exactly what this world tells us. On the other hand, these are the words that Christ tells us:

Therefore I say to you, Take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor yet for your body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit to his stature? And why take you thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say to you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Why, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knows that you have need of all these things. But seek you first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof.

This teaching is contrary to just about every instinct that we have as human beings. It subverts our instincts for self preservation in favor of reliance on God. And it is by no means easier. I would dare say that it is hardest thing that any human being can face, but it is the way that we allow ourselves to be made one with God. It is a lesson that I have had to learn over and over again, and one that I will likely continue to forget only to be reminded later. But what I have discovered is that when I rely on God, when I stop making all my own plans, God really does provide. We just have to be prepared to accept that it most likely will not match with what we want, but rather with what we need.

 

[Epiphanius]

I get what you are saying, nutroll, but I mean, at the same time, we all have to think about and plan oru futures at some point - even if those plans change and we trust God to lead us - we still need plans.

Well then Justin, it comes down to this. If you want to think about and plan your future, you have two paths in front of you at this point. Either you can embrace the EO faith and deny the sinful passions that you are feeling and strive to live a life honorable to God, or you can deny the EO faith, give into the passions and live the way you want. It's one or the other, there is no middle ground here. You can't be an active homosexual and remain in communion with the EOC. If that makes the EOC bigoted, intolerant or insensitive, then so be it, but it would be much worse to allow somebody to believe they can live a sinful life, fully opposed to the will of God and still partake of Christ, still be admitted into the kingdom; that is false teaching and anybody teaching it is decieving people and leading them on a path that leads to hell.

It's an either/or, not a both/and. There is no room for tolerance where it is the souls of people at stake. If you believe that your passions, your homosexual tendancies are God given, you are decieved. Homosexuality is an abomination before God and no matter how hard you try, you will not be able to get the EOC to condone it.

 

[127.0.0.1]

I take it you folks believe one of the core fundamentals of the sacrament of marriage is that the sexes compliment each other? If so, how so? How do they compliment each other?

 

[Julina]

go Nutroll

 

[gzt]

Zoness: Well, I listed things that should help. Dude, I've been 17 before. I know what I'm suggesting is hard. I would also suggest that you're doing something wrong if you're going to come close to pre-marital sex frequently. Especially if you're 17. What, are you dating? I would recommend against it at your age for precisely that reason. You're toying with your sexual faculties rather than finding somebody you may marry when you're that age. There are exceptions, you're likely not one, especially with that word "frequently".

 

[gzt]

Zoness: I really am serious. You're playing with fire. It will only end in tears and you will say, "gzt was right! Why, oh why, did I not listen to gzt?" Read the gospels, pray the psalms, etc. Flee temptation. If you keep presenting yourself with opportunities, you may give in, and that would just be tragic. Trust me. I'm a trained professional.