A Violent God?

[wblastyn]

Someone mentioned on another thread how liberals tend to overlook the violence committed by God. I think this is true to an extent and was just wondering how we justify this?

Personally I don't really know what to think? Perhaps the authors of the Bible only thought it was God, but it was actually a natural occurance, etc?

 

[Im_A]

Someone mentioned on another thread how liberals tend to overlook the violence committed by God. I think this is true to an extent and was just wondering how we justify this?

Personally I don't really know what to think? Perhaps the authors of the Bible only thought it was God, but it was actually a natural occurance, etc?

i don't think we over look it quo say, we just may not quote scripture that may lead someone to think God is violent.

we go about it different than i think conservatives do. we try to rationalize it, instead of may making a Divine claim about it.

for me personally, i see it as, those people were at a specific point with the creator. they believed everything they were doing was forced from God. if you want quote of verses showing that rape is in the Bible, or any violence, just go, i will give you some. but i see it as very culture orienated. or maybe that was the only way that sadly enough the people at the time could be reached? i would hate to think about it like that, but i sometimes wonder, cause today, Christians (no matter of the liberals or conservatives) would never agree to some of the stuff in the Old Testament (and only a minority of radicals would agree to everything done in the Old Testament. that's why we quote Jesus fulfilling the law.) our views of morality have gotten secularized (even in Christianity, which i'm not saying anything against that) or this was the beauty of Christ's life and death. instead of just saving souls, the power in the Gospel lead humanity to think differently about things (no matter of religious creed/belief) and has lead us to not see things the same as before Christ came to the earth.

just my two cents.

 

[Multi-Elis]

I struggle with it and for the moment leave it in a dark corner of my brain. It seems too simple to just erase the parts of the Bible that are violent. I sometimes wonder if doing so would make us just happy, shallow, glossed over people. Maybe our sturuggling with these verses is part of the way the world goes -- not perfect, not always rational, not clear, enegmatic, multi-dimentional, mysterious. So sooner or later, and over and over again, I'm going to have to face this problem. For the moment, for lack of CPU in my brain power, I stash it in a dark corner of my brain.

 

[Skydancing]

I think God has been used as an excuse for violence throughout history, I don't think God had anything to do with it!

 

[liberator]

Maybe, because we've had 2006 years since Christ came to teach us, his words about loving your enemy have sunk in a bit, however with the amount of violence going on around the world, even in the modern day, word just either hasn't got around yet, or people aren't listening/understanding.

 

[Multi-Elis]

I think people today still think "God wants us to go to war..." Sorry, that's off topic. It was just to say that things haven't changed that much.

 

[Im_A]

I think people today still think "God wants us to go to war..." Sorry, that's off topic. It was just to say that things haven't changed that much.

we do have those folk, that's for sure.

one way i look at it tho here in the usa is, the last election was really close. nearly half of the country split. conservatives may be the majority. but we're really close and right behind them, along with many other countries, i guess in the end, it's the dreaed left and secular folk who are actually the majority.

plus, it bugs me. God tells us to go to war in the main central part where there is oil. God tells us to go to war with a country that the president's father didn't follow through (maybe Bush senior was on to something.) God told us to go after Saddam while there are other villians left going around the world. God told us to go to war with a country that doesn't have wmd's, didn't commit 9/11. it's one thing to say Bush is convinced. mixed up intelligence, and all the other pressure Bush has. i'm actually rather sympathetic towards the man to be honest. Bush has repeatedly told his troops to go to war, that's what he wants. he's not perfect, and our government isn't perfect.

but for people to say that God told us to go to war? let's not give Bush that big of an ego, and let's not compare a man to God.

i think one thing must be considered for a positive today. there may be the negative still around and popping its ugly face around. but now we have equal rights that may not be perfect, but a hell of a lot better than in the past. we don't have people killing each other for believeing in heresy, we just say bad words to each other, and frown and whine/complain (instead of using guns, we know how to play the violin and show our huge selection of cheese). we don't murder people for being a witch or for being of another religion. if there is any that happens on this planet, it's few and far between, and the amount can only be mentioned as the minority.

i'm glad to be living in this world today, than before. if i would have been around the time people were burned for believeinging heresy, i'd be dead. i'm glad i wasn't around for the Revolutionary War. the threat and worry of war against some very angry parents. i'm glad i wasn't around in the Roman/Greek Times. the persecution of Christians was immense (but it would have been a beautiful era to be in tho outside of that.) i'm glad i wasn't around for Vietnam. watching soldiers come back from a battle that they needed their country to heal their wounds, and they get called baby killers and spit upon, shameful of us to do to them. i'm glad i wasn't around for World War I and II, The Cold War. the threat of losing my soverignity in this country, and the scare of nuclear war would be very weary. i'm glad to be living in 2005, going on to 2006. i can't wait to see things get better, but i'm glad we are at this point, nothing else. God's grace allowing us and our idealogies to evolve to see Him, not to see anything else. just another step that the future is looking very interesting, and at least for me, very hopeful.

sorry for ranting.

 

[trase]

Someone mentioned on another thread how liberals tend to overlook the violence committed by God. I think this is true to an extent and was just wondering how we justify this?

Personally I don't really know what to think? Perhaps the authors of the Bible only thought it was God, but it was actually a natural occurance, etc?

God is NOT a duality !! None of the violence committed in the OT was done by God. Those are all man-made claims.
God's nature is only good. We live in an EVOLUTIONARY and EXPERIENTIAL universe where, through trial and error, we learn and grow toward God. This universe of ours is a duality, made up of the real stuff (spirit) and an " illusion", which is here to point us to the truth, which is the spirit itself.
An illusion can never be real even though it sometimes looks deceptively real, hence the commandmend not to sin. Sin is not a SPIRITUAL REALITY and God could never commit an act of sin. God never did it and he never ordered it !!

 

[DailyBlessings]

It's a violent world. Beauty lies in balance, not whitewash. If my Lord commands his people to go to war than I will not question his wisdom. Was it necessary for the survival of the faith? In the Old Testament, usually the answer is yes. People didn't play games back then, and the handful of believers had the choice of killing or being exterminated.

 

[truthquest]

It is impossible to synchronize the sometimes capricious and violent nature of the old testament God with the loving and forgiving nature of God in the New Testament. It wasn't God who changed but people's perception of God. Jesus exposed us to a loving father figure. Before, the perception was of a mighty yet demanding ruler.

God is revealed to us at the level we are able to receive him. Ancient tribal people had no interest in a loving and forgiving father figure. They wanted to make sure their God was mightier than all the other gods. They also wanted to make sure that God would smite all their enemies. Jesus came with a new message when enough people were ready to hear it. There have also been other more modern revelations but many people aren't ready to hear it yet. The bottom line is God is greater than all our perceptions about him. Anyone who thinks they understand God completely is only fooling themselves. Anyone who thinks that God committed capricious acts of genocide and infanticide and that the Bible was infallibly dictated by God, have yet to reach the age of enlightenment and reason.

Brian

 

[Primrose]

Considering how some people believe Katrina and other natural disasters, even 9/11 for that matter are acts of God on us because of our sins I don't think many people think there is a difference at all in the God of the old and new testaments.

 

[hailstreak]

The differing portrayals of God between the Old and New Testaments do not indicate a change in the nature or character of God; nor does it indicate an irreconcilable paradox. Rather, the apparent inconsistency indicates a change in our understanding of God through time.

Christ came to reveal ultimate truth about God, and in so doing, revealed God's will more perfectly than ever before. An example is Matthew 5:38-39, where Jesus says: Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. An eye and a tooth for a tooth was acceptable in Old Testament times, but Jesus Christ tells us in most vivid terms that this logic is no longer acceptable. God is not a God of war, but of peace, and we are called to be people of peace and good will.

The New Testament writers have a deeper understanding of the nature of God and His will than the Old Testament writers ever did. Progression toward greater understanding and truth is an ongoing process that continues through the present, and will continue throughout eternity. It is a good reason why religion should not remain static and fundamentalist, but should continuously evolve toward greater truth as our understanding of God increases.

The scriptures are vital to our faith in Christ, but we must understand that God's divine revelation is interpreted through culture, and therefore contains both divine and human elements. Many statements and expressions in scripture reflect the author’s cultural belief system more than it does God’s absolute truth. Upholding cultural beliefs as divine truth creates religion that is regressive and hostile, and generates the very problems of intolerance and hatred that Jesus Christ came to abolish.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. - Luke 2:14

God bless,
Ronn

 

[whitestar]

Greetings all!

I guess I should not be surprised by the responses to this question of a voilent God....most people try to understand it using our limited human minds and it can appear that the OT and NT seem to constrats sharply...at least until you get to the book of Revelation where Jesus Himself returns in judgment on this world....this book alone can scare the daylights out of people if you don't understand what you are reading...especially if you don't understand and know the OT well. In Revelation Jesus returns with a sword to judge the world...the OT can look mild compared to it.

I disgree with every reply on here...though I realize you all are just trying to understand and rationalize what God did in the OT. Due to debates on this very subject, I ended up researching it myself because the atheist like to use the OT to attack God and make Him appear cruel and visious...which is the furtherest thing from the truth. I can't even get pass the flood in Genesis with them let alone move on to other things!

"How could a loving God drown all those people? Babies and children, women, the old people! How awful....how horrible to kill and kill by drowning!" Of course there are much worse stories in the OT too of God ordering women, children, babies, being killed with a sword.

I would image for God to decide to do such a thing there had to be a very, very good reason. He forgave Cain when he killed Able....so it had to be more then just murder these people were doing...He forgave alot of things actually. But the bible tells us these people had grown extremely wicked...and it had to be really bad and on going for a long time for God to decide to flood the world and drown them. They watched Noah build the ark for many long years too...don't you think they asked Noah why he was building an ark? I image they did and they laughed at him for it...not believing judgement was coming on them. Even Jesus mentions this and says it will happen again...judgement is coming again on the wicked in this world but they refuse to listen. Right now we are under the grace of Jesus...but one day that will end.

Continuing on with the OT; Later when God commanded whole groups of people to be killed it was also due to the truly horrible wicked things they were doing. First they killed the Hebrews ...the ones that lagged behind...the old, and weak, and they showed no mercy. They killed their own babies by throwing them into the fires for false gods...burying their children alive in temple walls built also for these false gods. Image a whole town bent on abusing their own children and each other, just traveling around and hurting and killing whoever they could. They were also warned but continued doing what they wanted too. So what choices did God have here? He could zapped people and make them 'be nice' taking away their freewill, or have them killed, saving the souls of the babies and children before they grew up and did horrible things to their own children...(provided they lived that long).

God does not see our physical lives as nearly as important as our souls. When He commanded the killings of these people, death came quickly...though it does sound horrible in the bible, they were very quick deaths and not being burned alive or other horrors the people were doing to themselves! Through this, He was showing His mercy.

Those that judge God and think what He did was terrible and put Him down for it, need to look at the human race. We allow the slaughter of unborn and partial born babies ourselves. In many countries an unwanted baby is left in the woods to die...or be killed by animals. In many countries children are sold by their own parents to be sex slaves....talking about millions and millions of children here too...its sickening. Many of these children and smuggled into the riches countries like the US and used and abused by the wealthy here. The other children are forced to work many long hours a day...tired literally to the machine they have to run...they eat and sleep there...if they slow down they are whipped and beaten.

Until we can show justic and mercy to our own, how can we dare to judge what God did in the OT?

In the bible it says, God's thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways...until you understand how God views things, not like we do, you cannot understand why He did what He did. Pray on it....this link below may help.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/madgod.html

God bless
WhiteStar

 

[trase]

Just when are people going to stop making excuses for the genocidal acts committed by the OT God ? Anyone who is able to condone and justify God's murderous acts is morally corrupt, whether they be christian or atheists !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Im_A]

Just when are people going to stop making excuses for the genocidal acts committed by the OT God ? Anyone who is able to condone and justify God's murderous acts is morally corrupt, whether they be christian or atheists !!!!!!!!!!!!

for some reason your post here got me thinking, so first off, thanks for your response.

the only way to even say that those actions are a part of God's nature (even though the laws he set for humanity may differ)/codone it, is, one has to believe the Bible is a living entity/bible idolatry as many liberals want to call it. one has to not question Moses. one has to believe that every action that we see in the Old Testament, is a sign of God's character, even though that does create problems. so i think we are either to accept the contradictions that we read with morality and the laws that were given and then the proclaimed violent actions deem them as a mystery, something that we can't understand because God's thoughts are not our thoughts.

then to the flip side of it, to me that is, God is a transcedent being that finite creatures can only see through a dim mirror, as Paul said. but we have the Holy Ghost to be our guide. so why can't we live in peace with seeking things out, instead of bowing down to never understanding, or at least getting our mirror not so dim anymore? wouldn't God want His creations to see Him, to know His thoughts? or wouldn't God want us to seek this out and try to understand Him more than what we do (ie Christian or non-Christian)?

so personally, i'm lead to believe that the violent actions of God that are described in the Old Testament cannot be condoned as moral, but they also cannot be condemned as immoral. how can a modern day believer, condone actions that Moses wrote and said this was of God? it's not a matter if he was right or wrong. their perception reality (at least to what we can see in by reading the scriptures), at least to me, shows us that, the writings of God being violent, would have never been written different. the culture, the perception of reality is different than ours, even as Christians. we can go on day and night, condoning, or condemning those violent actions. but any points is coming from this modern mentality, just as what i'm saying is coming from.

there's a world of difference between the perception of reality from the Old Testament writers, and us today.

if the Old Testament was written today, how would the Old Testament be written? i think very differently, than how those writers wrote the Bible.

so am i saying it is all wrong/invalid? no way. we cannot diss the point of religious followers that came before us. we may not agree with them and that's fine, and many Christians don't agree with Moses eye to eye. but nevertheless the confliction with our understanding, i believe to be only fair and to give the Old Testament justice, we must give it high respect and we must discredit it because of our modern mindset, or condone every contradiction because of mysteries that are beyond our way of understanding. to discredit it because of our modern mentality is ignorant, and to condone it because of some idea that we have to accept mysteries while being the creations of God to just accept mysteries prior to the time the Holy Spirit was given as helper is being ignorant.

we cannot condone or condemn the actions of a transcendent/spiritual being recorded by human beings. it's just not logically, theologically possible. when we try to condone/condemn this, we have what we have here. a search for knowledge that has no end, and that can never be answered.

and for the ending, this of couse is my two cents. God Bless you all! <><

 

[Martinez]

Just when are people going to stop making excuses for the genocidal acts committed by the OT God ? Anyone who is able to condone and justify God's murderous acts is morally corrupt, whether they be christian or atheists !!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow!

How do you think you would go at running the universe?

If God didn't absolutely have to do it that way, I'm sure He wouldn't have.
considering He gets no plesure from the death of the wicked.

 

[DailyBlessings]

If God didn't absolutely have to do it that way, I'm sure He wouldn't have.

Ah. So God wants to love us unconditionally but can't? Interesting...

 

[whitestar]

Ah. So God wants to love us unconditionally but can't? Interesting...

Your post makes no sense...where did anyone say this in this thread? You would rather He just allow babies throw alive into fire and do nothing???

Just when are people going to stop making excuses for the genocidal acts committed by the OT God ? Anyone who is able to condone and justify God's murderous acts is morally corrupt, whether they be christian or atheists !!!!!!!!!!!!

Since when do we even have the right to judge God? I am wondering if anyone bothered to read my post...let me quote a bit here of what I posted for those that don't like to read long post: Those that judge God and think what He did was terrible and put Him down for it, need to look at the human race. We allow the slaughter of unborn and partial born babies ourselves. In many countries an unwanted baby is left in the woods to die...or be killed by animals. In many countries children are sold by their own parents to be sex slaves....talking about millions and millions of children here too...its sickening. Many of these children and smuggled into the riches countries like the US and used and abused by the wealthy here. The other children are forced to work many long hours a day...tired literally to the machine they have to run...they eat and sleep there...if they slow down they are whipped and beaten.

Until we can show justic and mercy to our own, how can we dare to judge what God did in the OT?

I am not 'excusing' God's behavior...or judging it...only explaining what I believe His reasonings is for it...and I am not the only one that sees it this way, I have read it in bible commentary and on articles by those that have studied the bible for years. As far as I am concerned 'we' have totally NO business judging the actions of our creator...we think we are so high and mighty and above doing such things, but we do WORSE things!! Untill we can become sinless saints ourselves, we cannot 'judge' the Being that created everything and can destroy what He created if He so chooses.

The best we can do is simply try to understand and learn from our Father.

God bless
WhiteStar

 

[Casstranquility]

Someone mentioned on another thread how liberals tend to overlook the violence committed by God. I think this is true to an extent and was just wondering how we justify this?

I know that the all-powerful, all-knowing, God who is Love committed no acts of violence. Nor did It order violence to occur.

To commit violence, God would have to forget the meaning of love.

I believe that the OT is either a collection of myths/metaphors, or if it happened truly, than the only god who told others to murder was one that represented humans and their depth into the illusion of separation.

You see, to me, we are all God, and God, as us, orders killings all of the time. We are living in an illusion of separation, so we do not know Who we are. That is the only way we are able to experience death and suffering. (I agree with trase. )

-Cassie

 

[Raphael777]

Someone mentioned on another thread how liberals tend to overlook the violence committed by God. I think this is true to an extent and was just wondering how we justify this?

Personally I don't really know what to think? Perhaps the authors of the Bible only thought it was God, but it was actually a natural occurance, etc?

I think most theologians recognise a distinction in God's activities between the Old Testament and the New Testament - the "god of the OT" is often perceived as more vengeful and violent, whereas in the NT, more loving and forgiving, though I don't believe this to be completely so. Even in the NT, we are warned not to "mess" with God: "It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31) and "Let us... worship God in a way that pleases Him, in reverence and fear. For our God is a consuming fire" (12:28-29).

God's revelation, as I understand it, is gradual, and there is clear evolution in the understanding in God. In the Torah (or Pentateuch), we find cultic regulations, relating to offerings, dietry laws, and ritual cleanliness, but by the time of the Prophets, this wasn't good enough - gradually there was a realisation that God was a god of justice and that in order to serve Him, we too must seek justice: "What are your endless sacrifices to me? ... I am sick of burnt offerings... Learn [instead] to do good, search for justice, discipline the violenct, be just to the orphan, plead for the widow" (Isaiah 1:11, 17). Moreover, the realisation of God's "oneness" (monotheism) only occurred during the time of the prophets. Even the Psalms implies that there are other gods but that Yahweh is the "chief" God (Henotheism cf. Psalm 82:1; 86:8)

This evolution in the understanding of God helps I think to explain God's violence in early OT texts. It is possible that natural events of destruction were interpreted as divine acts of retribution. Alternatively, it does not matter if these events occurred in a literal sense. The imagery used to depict the destruction of Sodom seem quasi-mythical (i.e. Lot's wife turning into a pillar of salt). To get bogged down with questions like, "Did this occur in a literal sense?" or "Does God really act in such a violent way?" argubly takes our attention away from the underlying moral value being expressed; after all, St. Paul argues that OT events are "lessons for us".

The revelation of God reaches its climax in Jesus, who seems to fulfil the OT, by extending the Jewish understanding of God at that time. He says this, "Your Father causes His sun to rise on the bad as well as the good, and sends down rain to fall on the upright and the wicked alike" (Matthew 5:45). And what is more He indicates that it is the Christians, not the sinful, who will suffer under persecution. The activity of God is turned on its head: His omnipotence, for instance, from a Christian perspective, is most fully applied at the cross - an instance of complete apparent desolation and failure and powerlessness - and the subsequent resurrection, which confirms His salvific achievement. Jesus indicates that it is within God's power to act violently (Matthew 26:53) but this is simply not how God operates.