A Third Temple In Jerusalem, Breaking News?

[jgr]

Can you cite the 70 AD date for anything other than that rebellion and destruction of the Temple? Most of what I read shows basically the dates I mentioned. 1948 is without debate, of course.

I consider the destruction of Jerusalem, the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and the explusion of the remainder; to constitute the cessation of the nation. There's copious web information available.

 

[tampasteve]

I consider the destruction of Jerusalem, the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and the explusion of the remainder; to constitute the cessation of the nation. There's copious web information available.

Perhaps you consider it so, and it was a terrible, unconscionable action, and the destruction of the Temple was a tragedy, but that does not necessarily constitute the cessation of the Jewish nation. The expulsion did not happen until about 135, it did not happen in 70 when the Temple was destroyed. Forum etiquette asks one to reference one's assertion, please let me know where I can find, from a standard and reasonably scholarly or agreed upon source, the date for what you are claiming.

 

[jgr]

Perhaps you consider it so, and it was a terrible, unconscionable action, and the destruction of the Temple was a tragedy, but that does not necessarily constitute the cessation of the Jewish nation. The expulsion did not happen until about 135, it did not happen in 70 when the Temple was destroyed. Forum etiquette asks one to reference one's assertion, please let me know where I can find, from a standard and reasonably scholarly or agreed upon source, the date for what you are claiming.

If you have reasons for believing that the cessation of the nation occurred in other than 70 AD, I wouldn't disagree. In relation to prophetic fulfillment, the issue is not when it occurred, but rather that it did occur.

 

[tampasteve]

If you have reasons for believing that the cessation of the nation occurred in other than 70 AD, I wouldn't disagree. In relation to prophetic fulfillment, the issue is not when it occurred, but rather that it did occur.

Right, that is where we disagree. I stand by the point that the Jewish people and nation have never ceased to exist. They have been in captivity and been without a homeland, but they have not ceased to exist. If that is the bar we are using then they ceased twice, the first time back in the times of Babylon and then in 135 when they were expelled from Jerusalem and under Roman occupation since around 6.

I am OK with agreeing to disagree, I am not sure that we are going to see eye to eye on this, and that is OK. In the end Christ has redeemed us regardless of how we stand on this point, I believe.

 

[parousia70]

Perhaps you consider it so, and it was a terrible, unconscionable action, and the destruction of the Temple was a tragedy, but that does not necessarily constitute the cessation of the Jewish nation. The expulsion did not happen until about 135, it did not happen in 70 when the Temple was destroyed. Forum etiquette asks one to reference one's assertion, please let me know where I can find, from a standard and reasonably scholarly or agreed upon source, the date for what you are claiming.

Here's a source that cites Both Dates as legitimate:
Historical background 70 CE-1917 - Israel & Judaism Studies

"Jews have lived in the Land of Israel for nearly 4000 years, going back to the period of the Biblical patriarchs (c.1900 BCE). The story of Jewish life in ancient Israel is recorded in detail in the Hebrew Bible (the Christian "Old Testament").

The dispersion of the Jewish people is traditionally dated from the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, an event considered by the Romans to be a victory of such significance that they commemorated it by erecting the triumphal Arch of Titus, which still dominates the Roman Forum. The Roman historian Cassius Dio records that in a subsequent revolt in 135 CE some 580,000 Jewish soldiers were killed; and following that revolt the Emperor Hadrian decreed that the name "Judea" should be replaced by "Syria Palestina" - Philistine Syria or "Palestine"."

The key, for me, in preferring the 70AD date is that all the genealogical records were burned and forever lost in that event, rendering any "reconstitution" or "Reformation" of the Jewish Theocratic Nation of Israel, per the terms and requirements of the Sinai Covenant that inaugurated the Biblical nation of Israel in the first place, impossible forever.

Today's Israel, in direct contrast to biblical Israel, is a Multiethnic Conglomoration of peoples who have entered into a Democratic contract with one another to form a modern Secular Nation founded on the principles that arose out of the European enlightenment of the 17th and 18th Centuries. It has no relationship whatsoever (outside of geography and moniker) to the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy that once shared its name and general location.

It is no more the "reconstitution" of Biblical Israel than modern Mexico is the "reconstitution" of the ancient Aztec Empire.

 

[tampasteve]

Here's a source that cites Both Dates as legitimate:
Historical background 70 CE-1917 - Israel & Judaism Studies

"Jews have lived in the Land of Israel for nearly 4000 years, going back to the period of the Biblical patriarchs (c.1900 BCE). The story of Jewish life in ancient Israel is recorded in detail in the Hebrew Bible (the Christian "Old Testament").

The dispersion of the Jewish people is traditionally dated from the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, an event considered by the Romans to be a victory of such significance that they commemorated it by erecting the triumphal Arch of Titus, which still dominates the Roman Forum. The Roman historian Cassius Dio records that in a subsequent revolt in 135 CE some 580,000 Jewish soldiers were killed; and following that revolt the Emperor Hadrian decreed that the name "Judea" should be replaced by "Syria Palestina" - Philistine Syria or "Palestine"."

The key, for me, in preferring the 70AD date is that all the genealogical records were burned and forever lost in that event, rendering any "reconstitution" or "Reformation" of the Jewish Theocratic Nation of Israel, per the terms and requirements of the Sinai Covenant that inaugurated the Biblical nation of Israel in the first place, impossible forever.

Today's Israel, in contrast, is a Multiethnic Conglomoration of peoples who have entered into a Democratic contract with one another to form a modern Secular Nation founded on the principles that arose out of the European enlightenment of the 17th and 18th Centuries. It has no relationship whatsoever (outside of geography and moniker) to the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy that once shared its name and general location.

It is no more the "reconstitution" of Biblical Israel than modern Mexico is the "reconstitution" of the ancient Aztec Empire.

That is a legitimate source, thank you! Interesting how they list both dates.

 

[parousia70]

Right, that is where we disagree. I stand by the point that the Jewish people and nation have never ceased to exist. They have been in captivity and been without a homeland, but they have not ceased to exist.

Do you disagree with this?:
Acts 3:22-24
22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.

23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.

If you have a different understanding of "every soul.....shall be utterly destroyed from among the people" than I do, I would be eager to hear it.

If that is the bar we are using then they ceased twice, the first time back in the times of Babylon and then in 135 when they were expelled from Jerusalem and under Roman occupation since around 6.

Again I'd point you to the one stark difference.. The geneological records remained intact and un adultered in all prior "dispersions" to 70AD, when they were then lost forever.

 

[jgr]

Right, that is where we disagree. I stand by the point that the Jewish people and nation have never ceased to exist. They have been in captivity and been without a homeland, but they have not ceased to exist. If that is the bar we are using then they ceased twice, the first time back in the times of Babylon and then in 135 when they were expelled from Jerusalem and under Roman occupation since around 6.

I am OK with agreeing to disagree, I am not sure that we are going to see eye to eye on this, and that is OK. In the end Christ has redeemed us regardless of how we stand on this point, I believe.

Revolves around definitions and meanings. Politically, however, Israel was declared to be a nation in 1948. If so, then, politically, they could not have been considered a nation prior to that.

 

[Paidiske]

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[BABerean2]

The British promised the same piece of land to both the Arabs and the Jews.

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[seventysevens]

The British promised the same piece of land to both the Arabs and the Jews.



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Those wittle wascals

 

[BABerean2]

Every day modern Orthodox Jews and Christians visit a wall built by the Romans.

Recently a Roman amphitheater was found underground at this site, thus confirming the fact that the structure was built by the Romans.

During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.

Fort Antonia was built beside of the Jewish temple to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city of Jerusalem during the first century.
It is about the same size and shape of other Roman forts built during the same time period.

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


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[Steve Petersen]

Every day modern Orthodox Jews and Christians visit a wall built by the Romans.

Recently a Roman amphitheater was found underground at this site, thus confirming the fact that the structure was built by the Romans.

During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.

Fort Antonia was built beside of the Jewish temple to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city of Jerusalem during the first century.
It is about the same size and shape of other Roman forts built during the same time period.

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


.

Do you know how large a fort was needed to house an entire legion? Some have been uncovered in England. They are over 50 acres. The Temple Mount is only 35 acres.

ROMAN FORTRESSES IN BRITAIN

 

[Steve Petersen]

The amphitheatre was NOT found under the Temple Mount, but under Wilson's Arch, outside the Western Wall. It dates to about 300 AD.

So Much Drama! Roman Amphitheater Found Under Western Wall Tunnels

 

[Steve Petersen]

As to 'one stone will not be left' this is true of the Temple proper, but the Western Wall is just a retaining wall to contain the fill when Herod initiated the expansion of the Temple Mount.

 

[BABerean2]

The amphitheatre was NOT found under the Temple Mount, but under Wilson's Arch, outside the Western Wall. It dates to about 300 AD.

So Much Drama! Roman Amphitheater Found Under Western Wall Tunnels

Then it would be quite strange that Israeli Archeologist Eli Shukron (who also rediscovered the Pool of Siloam.) discovered a Roman coin dated about 17 AD under the bottom layer of stones in the "Wailing Wall", during an underground excavation.

Wilson's Arch is beside of and attached to the "Wailing Wall".

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[BABerean2]

This shows the location of the Roman Amphitheater.

It also reveals that the exact age of Wilson's arch is unknown.

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[Steve Petersen]

Then it would be quite strange that Israeli Archeologist Eli Shukron (who also rediscovered the Pool of Siloam.) discovered a Roman coin dated about 17 AD under the bottom layer of stones in the "Wailing Wall", during an underground excavation.

Wilson's Arch is beside of and attached to the "Wailing Wall".

.

Herod began the expansion of the Temple Mount and renovation of the Temple proper in about 20BC. The Western Wall was part of that expansion. The project was not finished until shortly before the first revolt against Rome in 66AD. The date of the coin only indicates the the Western Wall was not finished in 'about 20 BC when the coin fell there.

TEMPLE OF HEROD - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[BABerean2]

Herod began the expansion of the Temple Mount and renovation of the Temple proper in about 20BC. The Western Wall was part of that expansion. The project was not finished until shortly before the first revolt against Rome in 66AD. The date of the coin only indicates the the Western Wall was not finished in 'about 20 BC when the coin fell there.

TEMPLE OF HEROD - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Josephus was an eyewitness to the fact that Fort Antonia was built beside of the Jewish temple and the two were connected together with a bridge.

The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia

You said Fort Antonia is not big enough to be the Roman fort.
Then please tell us where the Roman fort was located.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?


I would not use the Jewish Encyclopedia as an unbiased source of truth.
A much better source is found below.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


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[Steve Petersen]

Josephus was an eyewitness to the fact that Fort Antonia was built beside of the Jewish temple and the two were connected together with a bridge.

On the north, not on the west.

You said Fort Antonia is not big enough to be the Roman fort.

Then please tell us where the Roman fort was located.

There was not an entire legion stationed at Jerusalem, but a smaller detachment. The nearest complete legionary fort was in Syria. After the Jews revolted against Rome and the city, Rome stationed the Tenth Legion there, but not on the Temple Mount, but on the ridge/hill just west of it. Roof tiles with the Legions insignia on them have been found there.

The Tenth Legion, Fretensis was stationed in Syria from 6-66 AD.

Legio X Fretensis - Wikipedia

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

John 2 is the early part of Jesus' ministry. His ministry was three and a half years. Most scholars put the beginning of his ministry around 26 AD. 46 years prior to 26AD is 20BC. As I said earlier, he began that project in 20BC.

I would not use the Jewish Encyclopedia as an unbiased source of truth.

A much better source is found below.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
.

Yeah, Jews, you know. Christ-killers and all that. Why would they publish things that could so easily be dismissed by the scholarly community?

The TEMPLE was indeed razed to the ground. That indeed is what the Apostles were pointing him to. That has nothing to do with the stones of the retaining wall for the Temple Mount platform.

There is one thing I think you should consider: If the Temple Mount was really a Roman fort, why did archaeologists find a stone from the place where the priests blew the trumpets at the base of the southwest corner of the Temple Mount retaining wall?

Trumpeting Place inscription - Wikipedia