A Serious Concern I have about Dispensationalism

[yeshuasavedme]

ysm, one of the major distinctions of dispenationalism, one of it's hallmarks, is that the Church is merely an interlude in God's dealings with the Jewish nation.

This is something new that was not taught before in other versions millenariamism.

If you believe that the Church is merely an interlude in God's dealings with the Jews, and that at the end of the Church Age the Old Covenant comes back in force, then you are dispenaitonalist.

If you don't, you aren't.




.

Let's not box in what the Holy Spirit teaches us in the Living Oracles to one man's opinion.

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme
As to the term, it is perhaps "new" in the usage it has now come to identify, but I do believe the "laqach" of the Church is next on the Agenda of YHWH, and then the seven years in His Holies in heaven as Leviticus 8 signs for the sons of God "perfected", and then the thousand year reign which is the Sabbath of thousands for this present creation -but I'm going up in the first ingathering, when the trumpets sound twice as Numbers 10:1-7 teach, to signify the call of the LORD for the ingathering to Him of His entire Assembly as Psalm 50 and Isaiah 26:19-21 says, which must happen before the world and all it's inhabitants are "dissolved"/melted/faint/ heart-sick, as Psalm 75:2,3 says in the Hebrew, and as He promised in John 14:3-5, adn I am watching and praying as He said to do that I may be counted orthy to escape all these things coming and to stand before the Son of Man in His temple, celebrating the consecration of my priesthood.


Jesus is the one who said He would "laqach" His congregation before Psalm 37 is totally fulfilled and the "Meek" inherit the earth when "this generation [this one wicked generation of earth, the sons of wrath]" completely passes away from this earth.

Jesus is the one who told His people to Watch and Pray that they may be counted worthy to escape all these things coming, when men's hearts on earth will "faint/melt, which is the dissolving of the reins from the fear which is coming. He said the same in Psalm 75:2,3, in the Hebrew as He said in

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Luk 21:26
Men's hearts failing/apopsychō them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


apopsychō
1) to breathe out life, expire
2) to faint or swoon away



Psa 75:2
When I shall receive/laqach the congregation I will judge/vindicate them uprightly/with equity.
Psa 75:3
The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved/muwg: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.


muwg 1) to melt, cause to melt
a) (Qal)
1) to melt, faint
2) to cause to melt
b) (Niphal) to melt away
c) (Polel) to soften, dissolve, dissipate
d) (Hithpolel) to melt, flow

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=21&verse=26&version=kjv#26

Luk 21:26

Men's hearts failing/apopsychō them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Hi. Substiture "Land" for earth as it all happens in Israel.

Did the whole literal "WORLD" quake when JESUS died on the cross?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Ezekiel 38:19 And in My zeal, in fire of rage of Me, I speak: If not in day, the-that, shall become a great quaking on the ground of Israel?

Matthew 27:51 and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the Land did quake and the rocks/ were rent.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=21&verse=26&version=kjv#26
Hi. Substiture "Land" for earth as it all happens in Israel.

Did the whole literal "WORLD" quake when JESUS died on the cross?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Ezekiel 38:19 And in My zeal, in fire of rage of Me, I speak: If not in day, the-that, shall become a great quaking on the ground of Israel?

Matthew 27:51 and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the Land did quake and the rocks/ were rent.

The wall of partition in the heavens shook, and that wall came down in the heavens when He died, but the shaking in the heavens is about the stars [angels/rulers/principalities and powers] which are to be cast down to earth when the Church goes up.
Luk 21:26
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth/oikoumenē: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
oikoumenē
1) the inhabited earth
a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The wall of partition in the heavens shook, and that wall came down in the heavens when He died, but the shaking in the heavens is about the stars [angels/rulers/principalities and powers] which are to be cast down to earth when the Church goes up.

Umm ok. I do not not beleive in a future rapture just for the record LOL.

The City also quaked when Jesus entered.

Matt 21:10 And he having entered into Jerusalem/, all the City was shaken/eseisqh <4579>, saying, `Who is this?'

Revelation 11:13 and in that hour came a great " earthquake"/seismoV <4578>, and the tenth of the city did fall, and killed in the earthquake/seismw <4578> were names of men--seven thousands, and the rest became affrighted, and they gave glory to the God of the heaven.

Matthew 27:51 and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the Land did quake/eseisqh <4579>, and the rocks/ were rent.

 

[holdon]

If you believe that the Church is merely an interlude in God's dealings with the Jews, and that at the end of the Church Age the Old Covenant comes back in force, then you are dispenaitonalist.

If you don't, you aren't.




.

I don't think I ever heard a dispensationalist say that at the end of the Church age the Old Covenant would come back in force.

 

[Easystreet]

1. Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled,{the tribulation}but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. {all Israel will be saved that are left}3. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. {this takes place at the end of the 7 year tribulation} 4. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. {yet to be fullfilled at the second coming following the 7 last years of the 70 weeks of years.}
5. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, {and} all the holy ones with Him! {Jesus returns with his bride the chruch}

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I don't think I ever heard a dispensationalist say that at the end of the Church age the Old Covenant would come back in force.

Who said it would?
Those who enter into the millennial reign -both the sheep Gentiles and the elect Jews- receive the same Salvation by the Everlasting Covenant as all the redeemed receive now in this Day of Salvation who are born into His Kingdom by His Adoption into His New Man name.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I don't think I ever heard a dispensationalist say that at the end of the Church age the Old Covenant would come back in force.

Oh, I have, many a time. . . just take a gander through the pages of this forum. . . .

holdon, the premise is that Daniel's 70th week is still to come to pass . . the 70th week is part of the Old Covenant. So when the 70th week starts, we are back in the Old Covenant again in some fashion of other.

Now, there is quite a bit of debate within dispenationalist circles exactly what that means, but still, in some way, the Old Covenant is back, whether for a very brief time as some say, or for a very long time or what ..

Some ven call for the salvation of the Jews through animal sacrifices rather than the blood of Jesus. Those are on the extreme fringes of dispenationalism.


What is the purpose of rebuilding the Temple and reinstituting animal sacrifices? That is all Old Covenant.



.

 

[holdon]

Oh, I have, many a time. . . just take a gander through the pages of this forum. . . .

holdon, the premise is that Daniel's 70th week is still to come to pass . . the 70th week is part of the Old Covenant. So when the 70th week starts, we are back in the Old Covenant again in some fashion of other.

Now, there is quite a bit of debate within dispenationalist circles exactly what that means, but still, in some way, the Old Covenant is back, whether for a very brief time as some say, or for a very long time or what ..

Some ven call for the salvation of the Jews through animal sacrifices rather than the blood of Jesus. Those are on the extreme fringes of dispenationalism.


What is the purpose of rebuilding the Temple and reinstituting animal sacrifices? That is all Old Covenant.



.

Well as far as Daniel 9 is concerned there is talk about an agreement with the many. Isaiah calls it a covenant of death. It certainly isn't the Old Covenant.

As far as the sacrifices in the future (see Ezekiel) are concerned, they have exactly the same value as the ones before Christ, in that those pointed towards Christ's perfect sacrifice and the future ones point back towards Christ. Whether (and if indeed) they will be literal sacrifices does not remove that aspect. In Ezekiel is it also a different covenent: the covenant of peace See Ezek 37:26 This is still to happen in a future day.
But the Old Covenant, if the Mosaic covenant is meant, is over.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Well as far as Daniel 9 is concerned there is talk about an agreement with the many. Isaiah calls it a covenant of death. It certainly isn't the Old Covenant.

As far as the sacrifices in the future (see Ezekiel) are concerned, they have exactly the same value as the ones before Christ, in that those pointed towards Christ's perfect sacrifice and the future ones point back towards Christ. Whether (and if indeed) they will be literal sacrifices does not remove that aspect. In Ezekiel is it also a different covenent: the covenant of peace See Ezek 37:26 This is still to happen in a future day.
But the Old Covenant, if the Mosaic covenant is meant, is over.

Yes it is, and it pointed only to the "Acceptable Year of the LORD", which made an 'end' of 'sin' which kept us in the state of the first death, by it's completion.

That Day of fasting and affliction and choosing the Scapegoat and confessing the sins of the people by laying on of hands onto the scapegoat and sending him away [to the wilderness] and slaying the other "ram/goat of Atonement and of slaying the bull and of sprinkling of the blood on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies where the Glory dwelt and of the sprinkling of the blood on the ground in front of the Mercy Seat is completed and will never be done again, nor will it be accepted ever, if one tries; for YHWH has spoken about that Day from the beginning, which was to come and which is now finished once, forever.

Abraham saw that Day which was to come and rejoiced, before the Law was given to the namesake people, when he rehearsed the Day of the LORD Jesus' Atonement which was to come, as a living oracle, in Genesis 22.

Nothing in the Living Oracles passes away until it is fulfilled, and the Day of Atonement is fulfilled, which is the Acceptable Year of YHWH'. and will never be offered or accepted again by the rehearsal types delivered to Israel, which were only patterns of that which was to come.

 

[Biblewriter]

I do not have time to review all that has taken place here since I last participated, for I am using a bowwowed computer more than 2000 miles from home, but I must make a general comment. I have seen several comments about the Lord's instructions to treat strangers living in the midst of israel the same as tyhe rest.

The passage cited for this is part of Ezekiel's prophecy about the future division of the land, when it is restored to Israel. This was not an instruction for how they were to behave in ancient times. At that time, enmity with other nations was a part of faithfulness to God. But in the millennium, peace will reign supreme, with all surviving nations restored along with a finally repentant Israel.

The problem with understanding bt many here is that dispensationalists (at least of the classical sort) do not imagoine that Israel is currently under blessing, but only that she is promised future blessing after she has finally repented. That repentance is also promised, but will not take place until after she has been brought through trouble worse than any other nation has ever experienced. That is the purpose of the tribulation.

As to Hal lindsey's "racism" in talking about how the Arebs desire to kill all jews, he is only referring to well known and widely published statements by many of their main leaders. If he indeed spoke approvingly of Israel's proposed use of nuclear weapons, I would not justify him is such a statement.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Umm ok. I do not not beleive in a future rapture just for the record LOL.

The City also quaked when Jesus entered.

Matt 21:10 And he having entered into Jerusalem/, all the City was shaken/eseisqh <4579>,saying, `Who is this?'

Revelation 11:13 and in that hour came a great " earthquake"/seismoV <4578>, and the tenth of the city did fall, and killed in the earthquake/seismw <4578> were names of men--seven thousands, and the rest became affrighted, and they gave glory to the God of the heaven.

Matthew 27:51 and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the Land did quake/eseisqh <4579>, and the rocks/ were rent.

The passage in Mathew is a redaction covering the three days and three nights from the death of Jesus to His bodily resurrection. At His resurrection on the eve of first of firstfruits -at sundown- 72 hours after His death, He rose fromt he dead as the High Priest of earth [Elected "Firstborn" Son of Man] and He gathered a "first of firstfruits" offering of cleansed in soul, perfected in Spirit and perfected in body =made whole/complete saints= whose graves were split open to show that their bodies were not there [and they walked about the city that night and were seen by many] to fulfill the Living Oracle of "First of Firstfruits", which must be gathered on the eve, at sundown, as the first day of the week after Passover draws on, and then must be offered in the temple mid-morning, after being fully prepared.
For that reason Jesus was ascending to the Father next mid-morning and told Mary to not "cling" to Him for He had 'not yet ascended to the Father', which He did do, taking those with Him who were firstfruits in Him, from the dead -"The Firstfruits" of the first resurrection from the dead perfected in body; which resurrection is guaranteed to come by the fulfilling of that day, according to the Law and which is typed in Pentecost in the Living Oracles.

He also led all the dead perfected in Spirit [born again] saints of old who waited for the Day of Reconciliation/Atonement's fulfillment in Sheol below [in comfort, however, as Enoch was shown and told of, in 1 Enoch, and as Jesus spoke of in Luke 16, when He told of the dead beggar and the dead rich man's souls as to their comfort levels in Sheol below earth], until He descended, rose, and ascended, "leading captivity captive", and thus made an end of the first death forever for the righteous who were waiting for the promise of restoration.

 

[Micah68]

I do not have time to review all that has taken place here since I last participated, for I am using a bowwowed computer more than 2000 miles from home, but I must make a general comment. I have seen several comments about the Lord's instructions to treat strangers living in the midst of israel the same as tyhe rest.

The passage cited for this is part of Ezekiel's prophecy about the future division of the land, when it is restored to Israel. This was not an instruction for how they were to behave in ancient times. At that time, enmity with other nations was a part of faithfulness to God. But in the millennium, peace will reign supreme, with all surviving nations restored along with a finally repentant Israel.

The problem with understanding bt many here is that dispensationalists (at least of the classical sort) do not imagoine that Israel is currently under blessing, but only that she is promised future blessing after she has finally repented. That repentance is also promised, but will not take place until after she has been brought through trouble worse than any other nation has ever experienced. That is the purpose of the tribulation.

As to Hal lindsey's "racism" in talking about how the Arebs desire to kill all jews, he is only referring to well known and widely published statements by many of their main leaders. If he indeed spoke approvingly of Israel's proposed use of nuclear weapons, I would not justify him is such a statement.

I am curious, how do Palestinian Christians factor into this scenario and do you think all Arabs want to push Israel into the sea? What would you say to a Palestinian Christian if one were to ask you why you feel their land belongs to someone else? What about Arab Jews and other Christian Arabs? Does dispensationalism believe that the Jews must fill the land from the Nile to the Euphrates before Christ will return? If so, Why? These are troubling questions for me. Seeking to understand.

~Micah

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I am curious, how do Palestinian Christians factor into this scenario and do you think all Arabs want to push Israel into the sea? What would you say to a Palestinian Christian if one were to ask you why you feel their land belongs to someone else? What about Arab Jews and other Christian Arabs? Does dispensationalism believe that the Jews must fill the land from the Nile to the Euphrates before Christ will return? If so, Why? These are troubling questions for me. Seeking to understand.

~Micah

I'm sure he will answer you but I have heard Palestinian Christians of mixed ancestry testify that the land of Palestine belongs to the seed of Jacob by divine decree.
That's just Bible; and Christians of all ethnic groups who read, believe, and submit to the Word of God say the same as He says...

And Israel does not seek to remove ethnic groups from their land who are there. And Palestinian mixed ethnic groups were not there when Israel began to return, rather they have come in and seek to take the land by force which God gave the grant to the seed of Jacob to.

It is a spirtual war. Guess who wins?
It is YHWH who will deal with the seed of the wicked who want to destroy the people of the Name and take their land.

 

[Micah68]

I'm sure he will answer you but I have heard Palestinian Christians of mixed ancestry testify that the land of Palestine belongs to the seed of Jacob by divine decree.
That's just Bible; and Christians of all ethnic groups who read, believe, and submit to the Word of God say the same as He says...

Interesting...The Palestinian Christians I know want to keep their lands, lands that have been in their families centuries. Most Palestinian Christians can trace their roots back to the time of Christ. Curious do you know what their religion was before Christ?

So, your answer is, yes; Palestinian Christians should give up their land? Does it say this in the Bible?

And Israel does not seek to remove ethnic groups from their land who are there.

No not forcibly in the Israeli territory. Interesting all the differnet ethnic groups of Jews there are.

And Palestinian mixed ethnic groups were not there when Israel began to return, rather they have come in and seek to take the land by force which God gave the grant to the seed of Jacob to.

What proof of this do you have? Are you saying that the Palestinians just showed up in 1948? Where did they come from then?

It is a spirtual war. Guess who wins?
It is YHWH who will deal with the seed of the wicked who want to destroy the people of the Name and take their land.

IMO there is nothing spiritual at all about it. Yes God does win, in his time and in his way.

I have another question, do you believe in the literal translation of the Bible?

~Micah

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well as far as Daniel 9 is concerned there is talk about an agreement with the many. Isaiah calls it a covenant of death. It certainly isn't the Old Covenant.

As far as the sacrifices in the future (see Ezekiel) are concerned, they have exactly the same value as the ones before Christ, in that those pointed towards Christ's perfect sacrifice and the future ones point back towards Christ. Whether (and if indeed) they will be literal sacrifices does not remove that aspect. In Ezekiel is it also a different covenent: the covenant of peace See Ezek 37:26 This is still to happen in a future day.
But the Old Covenant, if the Mosaic covenant is meant, is over.

According to what dispensationalism teaches, 'a dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.'
THE NEW SCOFIELD STUDY BIBLE, NIV, Oxford Univ. Press., New York, 1967, p. 3

So, which covenant/dispensation is Daniel's 70th week a part of?

1. Creation to fall ................. Innocency
2. Fall to flood...................... Conscience
3. Flood to Abraham.............. Human Government
4. Abraham to Moses............. Promise
5. Moses to Christ................. Law
6. Church Age ..................... Grace
7. Millennium ....................... Kingdom
​

God suspended the dispensation of the Law for the interlude of the Church Age, ie the age of Grace. When the 70th week resumes, is it not becaue the final "week" of the dispensation of the Law needs to occur for Daniel's 70 weeks to be complete according to dispensationalist teaching?
.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by holdon
Well as far as Daniel 9 is concerned there is talk about an agreement with the many. Isaiah calls it a covenant of death. It certainly isn't the Old Covenant.

Hi. It was the Jewish rulers that "cut a covenant with death" in Isaiah.

I believe all of Daniel is fulfilled and Isaiah harmonizes purrfectly with Revelation concerning Israel and Judah. Peace

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye-say: `We-cut/karath a-Covenant with Death, And-with Sh@'owl we-made a seer/02374 chozeh, a-SCOURGE overflowing that passeth-over, not he-shall-enter-in-to-us........

Reve 16:21 and hail, great as talent weight is descending out of the heaven upon the mankind, and blaspheme the mankind the God out of the Stripe/Scourge/plhghV <4127>of the hail, that great is the Stripe/Scourge/plhgh <4127>of her, tremendous.

4127 plege {play-gay'} from 4141;; n f
AV - plague 12, stripe 5, wound 4; 21
1) a blow, stripe, a wound 2) a public calamity, heavy affliction, plague,

 

[Biblewriter]

I am curious, how do Palestinian Christians factor into this scenario and do you think all Arabs want to push Israel into the sea? What would you say to a Palestinian Christian if one were to ask you why you feel their land belongs to someone else? What about Arab Jews and other Christian Arabs? Does dispensationalism believe that the Jews must fill the land from the Nile to the Euphrates before Christ will return? If so, Why? These are troubling questions for me. Seeking to understand.

~Micah

In the first place, dispensationalists (at least of the classical variety) do not for a moment believe that the Jewswill fill the land before Christ returns. The scriptures plainly declare that their righteous remnant will be cast out of the land, two-thirds of the rest will be killed, and half of Jerusalem will be captured.

For this to happen, they had to be back in the land to be cast out of it or to be killed or captured there. But even as the scriptures describe their eventual repentance and consequent blessing, they also describe their unbelieving and evil state when they are first back in the land. This evil and unbelieving state is why they will undergo such extreme punishment. But it is that punishment that will eventually bring them to repentance.

Buyt it is not only the unbelieving Jews that will be punished. The unbelievers of the surrounding nations will receive similar punishment. Most of the Philistines and all of the Edomites will be killed, and similar destruction will be meeted out to the rest of the nations in the fury of the Lord. After this has taken place, there will be plenty of room for all the survivors.

But even as the scriptures describe terrible judgments on all these nations, it also describes blessing for those who survive. Egypt, Assyria, the Philistines, And Samaria are specifically mentioned as blessed in that day along with Israel.

So the charge that this is a racist doctrine is totally false. The truth is that the whole world will be blessed in that day, and all well taught dispensationalists know this.

 

[holdon]

I am curious, how do Palestinian Christians factor into this scenario and do you think all Arabs want to push Israel into the sea? What would you say to a Palestinian Christian if one were to ask you why you feel their land belongs to someone else? What about Arab Jews and other Christian Arabs? Does dispensationalism believe that the Jews must fill the land from the Nile to the Euphrates before Christ will return? If so, Why? These are troubling questions for me. Seeking to understand.

~Micah

There is no doubt that ethnic/nationalistic emotions run high even among christians. In the US there are a good deal that probably wouldnt' sit down with the French for instance and reverse. It is even more tense in the Middle East.

But when Christ comes to rapture His Saints, then they will be all together. For the rest Christ will come and settle that too, but that will be a much more painful story.

 

[holdon]

Hi. It was the Jewish rulers that "cut a covenant with death" in Isaiah.

I believe all of Daniel is fulfilled and Isaiah harmonizes purrfectly with Revelation concerning Israel and Judah. Peace

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye-say: `We-cut/karath a-Covenant with Death, And-with Sh@'owl we-made a seer/02374 chozeh, a-SCOURGE overflowing that passeth-over, not he-shall-enter-in-to-us........

Reve 16:21 and hail, great as talent weight is descending out of the heaven upon the mankind, and blaspheme the mankind the God out of the Stripe/Scourge/plhghV <4127>of the hail, that great is the Stripe/Scourge/plhgh <4127>of her, tremendous.

4127 plege {play-gay'} from 4141;; n f
AV - plague 12, stripe 5, wound 4; 21
1) a blow, stripe, a wound 2) a public calamity, heavy affliction, plague,

A covenant is between 2 parties: the many and the person of Dn 9:27.