A Serious Concern I have about Dispensationalism

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holdon

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According to what dispensationalism teaches, 'a dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.'
THE NEW SCOFIELD STUDY BIBLE, NIV, Oxford Univ. Press., New York, 1967, p. 3

So, which covenant/dispensation is Daniel's 70th week a part of?


1. Creation to fall ................. Innocency
2. Fall to flood...................... Conscience
3. Flood to Abraham.............. Human Government
4. Abraham to Moses............. Promise
5. Moses to Christ................. Law
6. Church Age ..................... Grace
7. Millennium ....................... Kingdom
God suspended the dispensation of the Law for the interlude of the Church Age, ie the age of Grace. When the 70th week resumes, is it not becaue the final "week" of the dispensation of the Law needs to occur for Daniel's 70 weeks to be complete according to dispensationalist teaching?
.

I don't think you can find these 7 periods narrowly defined in the bible. I'm not saying the general idea is wrong, but it looks a bit artificial.
Daniel's 70th week happens after the church age, which will be raptured and before the millenium. I don't know where it fits in the above schedule. (apparently it does not)
 
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Easystreet

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I don't understand why anyone would not understand the basic principles of "7 or 8 dispensations" as defined by Ryrie and others in his camp.

In making this statement I do not intend for it to convey an attitude that you must understand or else. That is not me. However, there are some very simple principles that weather you are a dispensationalist or not that really do make sense. I have always liked to see it as an outline of God's unfolding of redemption. And granted all theologies are dispensational in one way or the other. I think where the real issue of difference comes in is not in the definition, but the theological camp we find ourselves in. If you will think about that statement you may very well agree.


Definition
A Dispensation - The system by which anything is administered. In Christian terms, looking back, it refers to a period in history whereby God dealt with man in a specific way. (Conscience, Law, Grace) (Is there proof of this at each point where a dispensation is said to start?)
Dispensationalism - A system of theology that sees God working with man in different ways during different dispensations. (Is there proof of this at each point where a dispensation is said to start?)
While 'Dispensations' are not ages, but stewardships, or administrations, we tend to see them now as ages since we look back on specific time periods when they were in force.

Two very clear principles:
1 - A clear distinction between God's program for Israel and God's program for the Church.
2 - A consistent and regular use of a normal literal, grammatical, historical, principle of interpretation.

Seven dispensations.
Innocence - Adam
Conscience - After man sinned, up to the flood
Government - After the flood, man allowed to eat meat, death penalty instituted
Promise - Abraham up to Moses and the giving of the Law
Law - Moses to the cross
Grace - The cross to the Millennial Kingdom
Millennial Kingdom - A 1000 year reign of Christ on earth centered in Jerusalem


Now, can we do this one dispensation at a time: Lets slow down and deal with the basic concept as it pertains to the definiton? Disagree if you like but at least look carefully at it. I am not interested in endless out in the great blue yonder using this and that to prove a point. We can all do that and it gets no where.

So lets just go one step at a time. Is that OK with all?


First, and just dealing with change and new revelation.

God Created and we are told certain things about how God related to man in the Garden. We could ask, How did God related to man in his "innocent state"?

We know that God's rules and His relationship in the Garden and after are different. With the data we have in the text, and with the definition above, is there any reason what is stated does not agree with the definition? A system of theology that sees God working with man in different ways during different dispensations
Is this statement true of the pre fall time compared to the post fall time?
Lets stop there and just deal with these two before moving on. Thanks Gordon

(off to solve a customer's atuo locking problem - see everyone later)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I don't think you can find these 7 periods narrowly defined in the bible. I'm not saying the general idea is wrong, but it looks a bit artificial.
Daniel's 70th week happens after the church age, which will be raptured and before the millenium. I don't know where it fits in the above schedule. (apparently it does not)
Hi. I would think it would be Daniel's people being "raptured" since Daniel concerns the Jewish Nation of Judah.
I view 2 different "jerusalems/churches" in Revelation, the OC Priesthood of Judah/Levi vs the NC Priesthood of the Saints in YHWH's Christ.
Thoughs?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Daniel 9:24 Seventy/07657 shib`iym weeks/07620 shabuwa` he is decreeing [#2852] on People of you and on a City of holy of you,

Daniel 9:25 And-you-shall-know/03045 yada`, and-you-shall-be-prudent/07919 sakal from to-go-forth-of/04161 mowtsa' a-word/01697 dabarto to-turn-back/07725 shuwb and-to-build/01129 banah Y@ruwshalaim, til-an-annointed-one/04899 mashiyach, a-prince/05057 nagiyd, weeks/07620 shabuwa` seven/07651 sheba`, and-weeks/07620 shabuwa` sixty and-two, she-shall-return/07725 shuwb and-she-is-built/01129 banah a-street/07339 r@chob and-sharp/gold/diligent/02742 charuwts and-in-anquish-of/06695 tsowq the-times/06256 `eth.
 
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Notrash

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Hi. It was the Jewish rulers that "cut a covenant with death" in Isaiah.

I believe all of Daniel is fulfilled and Isaiah harmonizes purrfectly with Revelation concerning Israel and Judah. Peace

I agree with Daniel being fulfilled. I wanted to offer moral support. I dont' know about the second part, but I apreciate the insights you offer showing Revelation harmonizing with Isaiah and the events after Jesus' ascension. That part about the wheat and barley was great.
 
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holdon

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From the text and the hebrew word, Does the 'person' in Dan 9 make a new covenant or confirm and fulfill an existing covenant?

In Dan 9 it is "confirm". The "he" confirms a covenant with the many for 1 week. But then he betrays the many at the midweek.

In Is 28 you see the covenant being made:
vs 14/15"For ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol have we made an agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves. "

And here you see it annulled:
28:18 And your covenant with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, ye shall be trodden down by it.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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From the text and the hebrew word, Does the 'person' in Dan 9 make a new covenant or confirm and fulfill an existing covenant?
Hi. I believe the only effective way to translate Daniel 9 and even 11 is with an interlinear WORD for WORD.
Here is what I have:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Daniel 9:26 And-after the-weeks/07620 shabuwa`, sixty and-two, he-shall-be-cut-off/03772 karath,an-annointed-one/04899 mashiyach, and-is-nothing to-him.
And-the-city, and-the-holy/06944 qodesh he-shall-ruin/07843 shachath a-people-of a prince/05057 nagiyd, the-one-coming. And-end-of-him in-overflow/07858 sheteph and-till end-of war/04421 milchamah being-decided/02782 charats desolations/08074 shamem.

Daniel 9:27 And-he-shall-be-strong-of/01396 gabar a-Covenant/01285 b@riyth to-many, a-week/07620 shabuwa`, one/0259 'echad.
And-half-of/02677 chetsiy the-week/07620 shabuwa`, he-shall-cause-to-cease/07673 shabath a-sacrifice/02077 zebach and-an-offering/04503 minchah.
 
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Micah68

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In Dan 9 it is "confirm". The "he" confirms a covenant with the many for 1 week. But then he betrays the many at the midweek.

In Is 28 you see the covenant being made:
vs 14/15"For ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol have we made an agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves. "

And here you see it annulled:
28:18 And your covenant with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, ye shall be trodden down by it.

I read the Book of Daniel as an apocalypse, not a prophetic book. Those who compiled the Hebrew Bible, in fact grouped the book of Daniel in a section called "the Writings";and not with the prophets.

The apocalyspses of Chapter 7-12 focus on the four world powers of Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece. In Ch 7 the kingdoms are depicted as four awful beasts rising out of the chaoiic sea. The final beast spouts 10 horns. These horns represent the ten rulers who follow the death of Alexander the Great. Then an eleventh horn appears and to make room for it, three horns fall off. This 11th horn represents the rule of Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who displaces three rulers when he came into power. This 11th horn speaks arrogantly, which is an allusion to the desecration of the temple by Antiochus in 167 BCE. Immediately following the eleventh horn comes the Ancient One who takes a seat on the throne. The Ancient One sits in judgement and consequently Daniel sees the 4th beast put to death. The arroagant horn has been silenced. Then coming in the clouds is one like a "son of man" (v.13 NIV), who is given dominion, glory and kingship so that all the nations shall serve him. His dominion is eternal and his kingship never destroyed (v. 14). The scene depicts the arrival and establishment of the kingdom of God.

The remainder of the book of Daniel reiterates the opening scenario of Chapter 7, using different imagery and differing emphases. The end of chapter 8 describes the horrors that antiochus IV imposed on the Jews in Jerusalem during his reign. Daniel's response comes in the form of a prayer of confession for his sins and the sins of the people (Dan. 9), indicating that the persecutions wrought by Antiochus IV were understood as discipline or punishment brought on the the sins of the people. The Chapter ends with with the words of hope that seventy weeks have been decreed for the punishment, after which the end will come and the desolator (Antiochus IV) will be destroyed (9:27).

A little bit of history, in 167 Antiochus IV decreed that the whole kingdom should be one people and that the Jews would no longer be allowed to follow customs strange to the Greek world. The people were commanded to build alters and shrines for idols. The temple was renamed for the Olympian Zeus. Jews were forbade to worship their God. Turning the temple of God into the temple of Zeus presented a horrible crisis for the Jews because it cut to their religious and cultural core. The command to worship Zeus meant heresy, an abomination to the one true God, and something they could never do. Antiochus IV commanded that any Jew failing to follow this decree be killed. 1 and 2 Maccabees of the Apocrypha are also a response to the horrors the Jews suffered under Antiochus IV.


I think for me the one of the biggest weakness in depensationism lies in the 2000 year gap between the 69 and 70 week. I just do not see or understand it. I am sorry I mean no disrespect.

~Micah
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I think for me the one of the biggest weakness in depensationism lies in the 2000 year gap between the 69 and 70 week. I just do not see or understand it. I am sorry I mean no disrespect.

~Micah
Hi. This guy had the same problem with it LOL. Interesting read. :wave:

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

...............the world did not end immediately after Antiochus despoiled Jerusalem and the temple, Michael was not outraged enough to promptly end the world. This 'clock' must have 'stopped ticking' as well, awaiting the awakening and the rise of the 'revived Selucid Greek empire' at which time it will finally be fulfilled.

This would, of course, require ending the world twice (once to Revive the Romans and thus salvage chapter 9, and a second go at it to revive the Greeks and salvage chapter 12. Whether or not we can all tolerate suffering through two ends of the world is a good question, but this would be required to salvage.................
 
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Micah68

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Hi. This guy had the same problem with it LOL. Interesting read. :wave:

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

...............the world did not end immediately after Antiochus despoiled Jerusalem and the temple, Michael was not outraged enough to promptly end the world. This 'clock' must have 'stopped ticking' as well, awaiting the awakening and the rise of the 'revived Selucid Greek empire' at which time it will finally be fulfilled.

This would, of course, require ending the world twice (once to Revive the Romans and thus salvage chapter 9, and a second go at it to revive the Greeks and salvage chapter 12. Whether or not we can all tolerate suffering through two ends of the world is a good question, but this would be required to salvage.................

Have you read Josephus? taken from Book I of 'Wars of the Jews'

HOW THE CITY JERUSALEM WAS TAKEN, AND THE TEMPLE PILLAGED [BY ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES]. AS ALSO CONCERNING THE ACTIONS OF THE MACCABEES, MATTHIAS AND JUDAS; AND CONCERNING THE DEATH OF JUDAS.
1. AT the same time that Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, had a quarrel with the sixth Ptolemy about his right to the whole country of Syria, a great sedition fell among the men of power in Judea, and they had a contention about obtaining the government; while each of those that were of dignity could not endure to be subject to their equals. However, Onias, one of the high priests, got the better, and cast the sons of Tobias out of the city; who fled to Antiochus, and besought him to make use of them for his leaders, and to make an expedition into Judea. The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months. But Onias, the high priest, fled to Ptolemy, and received a place from him in the Nomus of Heliopolis, where he built a city resembling Jerusalem, and a temple that was like its temple (1) concerning which we shall speak more in its proper place hereafter.
2. Now Antiochus was not satisfied either with his unexpected taking the city, or with its pillage, or with the great slaughter he had made there; but being overcome with his violent passions, and remembering what he had suffered during the siege, he compelled the Jews to dissolve the laws of their country, and to keep their infants uncircumcised, and to sacrifice swine's flesh upon the altar; against which they all opposed themselves, and the most approved among them were put to death. Bacchides also, who was sent to keep the fortresses, having these wicked commands, joined to his own natural barbarity, indulged all sorts of the extremest wickedness, and tormented the worthiest of the inhabitants, man by man, and threatened their city every day with open destruction, till at length he provoked the poor sufferers by the extremity of his wicked doings to avenge themselves.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/index.htm


 
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Notrash

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I read the Book of Daniel as an apocalypse, not a prophetic book. Those who compiled the Hebrew Bible, in fact grouped the book of Daniel in a section called "the Writings";and not with the prophets.

The apocalyspses of Chapter 7-12 focus on the four world powers of Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece. In Ch 7 the kingdoms are depicted as four awful beasts rising out of the chaoiic sea. The final beast spouts 10 horns. These horns represent the ten rulers who follow the death of Alexander the Great. Then an eleventh horn appears and to make room for it, three horns fall off. This 11th horn represents the rule of Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who displaces three rulers when he came into power. This 11th horn speaks arrogantly, which is an allusion to the desecration of the temple by Antiochus in 167 BCE. Immediately following the eleventh horn comes the Ancient One who takes a seat on the throne. The Ancient One sits in judgement and consequently Daniel sees the 4th beast put to death. The arroagant horn has been silenced. Then coming in the clouds is one like a "son of man" (v.13 NIV), who is given dominion, glory and kingship so that all the nations shall serve him. His dominion is eternal and his kingship never destroyed (v. 14). The scene depicts the arrival and establishment of the kingdom of God.

The remainder of the book of Daniel reiterates the opening scenario of Chapter 7, using different imagery and differing emphases. The end of chapter 8 describes the horrors that antiochus IV imposed on the Jews in Jerusalem during his reign. Daniel's response comes in the form of a prayer of confession for his sins and the sins of the people (Dan. 9), indicating that the persecutions wrought by Antiochus IV were understood as discipline or punishment brought on the the sins of the people. The Chapter ends with with the words of hope that seventy weeks have been decreed for the punishment, after which the end will come and the desolator (Antiochus IV) will be destroyed (9:27).

A little bit of history, in 167 Antiochus IV decreed that the whole kingdom should be one people and that the Jews would no longer be allowed to follow customs strange to the Greek world. The people were commanded to build alters and shrines for idols. The temple was renamed for the Olympian Zeus. Jews were forbade to worship their God. Turning the temple of God into the temple of Zeus presented a horrible crisis for the Jews because it cut to their religious and cultural core. The command to worship Zeus meant heresy, an abomination to the one true God, and something they could never do. Antiochus IV commanded that any Jew failing to follow this decree be killed. 1 and 2 Maccabees of the Apocrypha are also a response to the horrors the Jews suffered under Antiochus IV.


I think for me the one of the biggest weakness in depensationism lies in the 2000 year gap between the 69 and 70 week. I just do not see or understand it. I am sorry I mean no disrespect.

~Micah

I'm in agreement here with the 4 kingdoms. I dont' think that Ch 11 and Ch9 refer to the same abomination. But Jesus does refer to the abomination that causes desolation as referred to by the Prophet Daniel as occuring in his disciples lifetime. Since many of the devout in Jerusalem and Israel/Judea were looking for the MESSIAH that was prophecied in Dan 9 and Dan 9 ONLY, we can associate Jesus' reference to the abomination that causes desolation that is refered to in Dan 9.

I don't know how Holden associates Isaiah 28 prophecies with occurances supposed to happen 2500 years in the future any more than Dan 9's prophecy is limited to a 490 year time period; just as Jeremiahs prophecy was limited to a 70 year time period. (By the way, the 490 years is representative of the 70 X 7 that Jesus tells his disciples how many times they should forgive.)

I understand that Isaiah 28 is speaking of Christ, in laying the stone in Zion, but it is refering to the time of his salvation as occured at the cross. Salvation and judgement go together. If one doesn't have salvation, one has wrath. This is confirmed by Jesus and the disciples.

Luke 20:18, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Matt 21:44, And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

I Peter 2:8, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Rom 9:32,33 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I think this last passage is helping to clarify Isaiah 28 which in context refers to Ephraim's study in the scriptures. Line for line, precept for precept Isaiah 28:10, doctrine is exposed. But they do not attain to doctrine, but fall back and are broken Is 28:13. and God adds 'judgement' to their study. Is. 28:17 They have studied, and for whatever reasons they think they have eternal life.

I dont' think this covenant that Ephraim makes refers to a covenant with a prince at all. It refers to an agreement and understanding that they had with themselves that either by works of the law (such as studying) or by being genetic descendants of Israel they would be favored by God and be spared the scourge of death. Their 'agreement' or understanding that they covenanted with death was recorded in vs 15; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us:

Jesus says: John 5:39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Matt 21:44, And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Thus, even IF the covenant and the prince would be refering to a ruler of the world who covenants with the leaders of Israel, (which I totally disagree with) the time is refering to the time of Christ and the crucifiction through the scourge of death upon those leaders. Now, I could understand how this could be referring to how the leaders of Israel covenanted with Judas to obtain Jesus death. But they did not covenant with the "Prince" or the Roman authorities. Remember how Pilate had desired to set Jesus free but the crowd called for Barabbas.? Pilate washed his hands of the event.

Thus again, the application of both Dan 70 weeks and Isaiah 28 do not point towards a 2000 year gap, but point towards their fulfillment in Christ as confirmed by Christ and also Paul, Peter and Luke.

If Holden would allow the "He" of Dan 9:27 to be the Messiah, as proper grammatical structure AND as the Hebrew Parallelisms in prophecy and biblical writings would both support, then the covenant that Jesus Confirms among many for 7 years is the multifaceted Gospel that was spoken both to Adam/Eve and to Abraham and is found fulfilled in Christ (Gods) atoning death.

Mal 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

(By the way, what part of the end time scenario do dispensationalists apply this verse in Malachi?)

Luke 1:67
Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 "Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

Acts 3:25.
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Purpose of the Law
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;

In our day and age, with the Scofield Bible saying: 1962 Edition, "FOR A NATION TO COMMIT THE SIN OF ANTI-SEMITISM BRINGS INEVITABLE JUDGMENT" and with the Hagee going a step further, saying, "Every anti-Semite is going to spend eternity in Hell without God." http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=5554303
the church and Christian zionism has seemingly reciprocated those statements and redifined the Gospel of Eternal life. That gospel according to Christian zionists is as easy as 'blessing Israel'. "Every pro-semite is going to spend eternity in Heaven with God." Those who bless Israel, God will Bless, those who curse Israel, God will curse. Hagee says that it is of non-consequence to proselityze jews. He's not concerned of sharing Christ with them or their need of salvation. But what would Paul say?..... If anyone brings any other Gospel but the one we preached, let THEM be accursed.

Thus, Haggee and others have again stumbled at that stumbling stone of Christ.

It is almost as if dispensationalism and zionism have gone back in time to a time before Christ came to earth and apply all prophecies to the supposed future coming of the Jewish Messiah. Problem is, he already came just as prophesied.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

This is as close to a one-verse refutation of one of the Laws of dispensationalism and of Christian-zionism that I can imagine.
 
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holdon

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I read the Book of Daniel as an apocalypse, not a prophetic book. Those who compiled the Hebrew Bible, in fact grouped the book of Daniel in a section called "the Writings";and not with the prophets.

The apocalyspses of Chapter 7-12 focus on the four world powers of Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece.
If you would just for a moment stop here. Because this is a simple miscalculation. Media and Persia are 1 power. See specifically Dan 8:20,21. Thus Greece is the 3rd. Which is then the 4th?
 
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holdon

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But Jesus does refer to the abomination that causes desolation as referred to by the Prophet Daniel as occuring in his disciples lifetime.
Jesus referred to Dan 12:11.
Since many of the devout in Jerusalem and Israel/Judea were looking for the MESSIAH that was prophecied in Dan 9 and Dan 9 ONLY, we can associate Jesus' reference to the abomination that causes desolation that is refered to in Dan 9.
Strange reasoning
I don't know how Holden associates Isaiah 28 prophecies with occurances supposed to happen 2500 years in the future any more than Dan 9's prophecy is limited to a 490 year time period; just as Jeremiahs prophecy was limited to a 70 year time period. (By the way, the 490 years is representative of the 70 X 7 that Jesus tells his disciples how many times they should forgive.)
Kind of strange that you throw everything together here. I would advise to read Is. 28 in context (preceding chapters). Also, read all of Daniel and I think you will see that a "week" is 7 years, and half of a week, 3.5 years, = time, 2 times, and half time. =1260 days. (see Revelation)
I understand that Isaiah 28 is speaking of Christ, in laying the stone in Zion, but it is refering to the time of his salvation as occured at the cross. Salvation and judgement go together. If one doesn't have salvation, one has wrath. This is confirmed by Jesus and the disciples.

Luke 20:18, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Matt 21:44, And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

I Peter 2:8, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Rom 9:32,33 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I think this last passage is helping to clarify Isaiah 28 which in context refers to Ephraim's study in the scriptures. Line for line, precept for precept Isaiah 28:10, doctrine is exposed. But they do not attain to doctrine, but fall back and are broken Is 28:13. and God adds 'judgement' to their study. Is. 28:17 They have studied, and for whatever reasons they think they have eternal life.

I dont' think this covenant that Ephraim makes refers to a covenant with a prince at all. It refers to an agreement and understanding that they had with themselves that either by works of the law (such as studying) or by being genetic descendants of Israel they would be favored by God and be spared the scourge of death. Their 'agreement' or understanding that they covenanted with death was recorded in vs 15; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us
Yes, they seek the protection of foreign power from the threat of this invader: "overflowing scourge".
If Holden would allow the "He" of Dan 9:27 to be the Messiah, as proper grammatical structure AND as the Hebrew Parallelisms in prophecy and biblical writings would both support.
But that is simply and purely false.
Mal 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

(By the way, what part of the end time scenario do dispensationalists apply this verse in Malachi?)
Well if you read Malachi in its entirety you will see that the forerunner (John the Baptist) is spoken of and then Jehovah would be coming in judgment. (=Christ)
the church and Christian zionism has seemingly reciprocated those statements and redifined the Gospel of Eternal life. That gospel according to Christian zionists is as easy as 'blessing Israel'. "Every pro-semite is going to spend eternity in Heaven with God." Those who bless Israel, God will Bless, those who curse Israel, God will curse. Hagee says that it is of non-consequence to proselityze jews. He's not concerned of sharing Christ with them or their need of salvation. But what would Paul say?..... If anyone brings any other Gospel but the one we preached, let THEM be accursed.

Thus, Haggee and others have again stumbled at that stumbling stone of Christ.
It seems to me that you're rambling off here. Where was all the careful Scripture study that you referred to earlier? This is pure speculation and sensationalism as such, you're no different than Hagee I'm afraid.
It is almost as if dispensationalism and zionism gone back in time to a time before Christ came to earth and apply all prophecies to the supposed future coming of the Jewish Messiah. Problem is, he already came just as prophesied.
He came? In judgment? When?
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

This is as close to a one-verse refutation of one of the Laws of dispensationalism and of Christian-zionism that I can imagine.
You're using this text a little out of context...
However, there is this one too that would go against your position:

Romans 11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, that ye may not be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the nations be come in;
11:26 and so all Israel shall be saved. According as it is written, The deliverer shall come out of Zion; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 11:27 And this is the covenant from me to them, when I shall have taken away their sins.
 
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Micah68

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If you would just for a moment stop here. Because this is a simple miscalculation. Media and Persia are 1 power. See specifically Dan 8:20,21. Thus Greece is the 3rd. Which is then the 4th?


Media, Persia, Greece and Babylon still.



Dan 8:20 The ram that you saw with the two horns stands for the kings of Media and Persia. 8:20 The ram that you saw with the two horns stands for the kings of Media and Persia. 8:21 The male goat48 is the king of Greece,49 and the large horn between its eyes is the first king.

We are discussing the number of horns and not the number of rams. Media and Persia are each repesented by a horn.

Persia = "pure" or "splendid"

1) the empire Persia; encompassed the territory from India on the east
to Egypt and Thrace on the west, and included, besides portions of
Europe and Africa, the whole of western Asia between the Black Sea,
the Caucasus, the Caspian and the Jaxartes on the north, the Arabian
desert, the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean on the south
1a) Persia proper was bounded on the west by Susiana or Elam, on the
north by Media, on the south by the Persian Gulf and on the east
by Carmania

Persian = see Persia "pure" or "splendid"
Mede or Media = "middle land"

1) a Mede, a native or inhabitant of Media, a well known region of Asia whose chief city was Ecbatana
3370 Medos may'-dos

of foreign origin (compare 4074); a Median, or inhabitant of Media:-Mede.see HEBREW for 04074

Hebrew

Strongs #04074: ydm Maday

Media or Medes or Madai = "middle land" n pr m
1) a people descended from the son of Japheth and who inhabited the territory of Media n pr loc
2) land inhabited by the descendants of Japheth; located northwest of Persia proper, south and southwest of the Caspian Sea, east of Armenia and Assyria, and west and northwest of the great salt
desert of Iram 4074 Maday maw-dah'-ee

of foreign derivation; Madai, a country of central
Asia:-Madai, Medes, Media.
Strongs #04076: ydm Maday (Aramaic)

Medes = "middle land"

n pr m
1) an inhabitant of Media

n pr loc
2) the territory inhabited by the Medes
2a) located northwest of Persia proper, south and southwest of the
Caspian Sea, east of Armenia and Assyria, and west and
northwest of the great salt desert of Iram 4076 Maday maw-dah'-ee

(Aramaic) corresponding to 4074:-Mede(-s).
see HEBREW for 04074
Strongs #04077: ydm Maday (Aramaic)

Mede or Medes = "middle land"

1) an inhabitant of Media 4077 Maday maw-dah'-ee

(Aramaic) corresponding to 4075:-Median.
see HEBREW for 04075
Strongs #04075: ydm Maday

Mede = "middle land"

1) an inhabitant of Media
1a) located northwest of Persia proper, south and southwest of the Caspian Sea, east of Armenia and Assyria, and west and northwest of the great salt desert of Iram 4075 Maday maw-dah'-ee

patrial from 4074; a Madian or native of Madai:-Mede.
see HEBREW for 04074

Madai [EBD]

middle land, the third "son" of Japheth (Gen. 10:2), the name by which the Medes are known on the Assyrian monuments.

Mede [EBD]

(Heb. Madai), a Median or inhabitant of Media (Dan. 11:1). In Gen. 10:2 the Hebrew word occurs in the list of the sons of Japheth. But probably this is an ethnic and not a personal name, and denotes simply the Medes as descended from Japheth.

Media [EBD]


Heb. Madai, which is rendered in the Authorized Version (1) "Madai," Gen. 10:2; (2) "Medes," 2 Kings 17:6; 18:11; (3) "Media," Esther 1:3; 10:2; Isa. 21:2; Dan. 8:20; (4) "Mede," only in Dan. 11:1.
We first hear of this people in the Assyrian cuneiform records, under the name of Amada, about B.C. 840. They appear to have been a branch of the Aryans, who came from the east bank of the Indus, and were probably the predominant race for a while in the Mesopotamian valley. They consisted for three or four centuries of a number of tribes, each ruled by its own chief, who at length were brought under the Assyrian yoke (2 Kings 17:6). From this subjection they achieved deliverance, and formed themselves into an empire under Cyaxares (B.C. 633). This monarch entered into an alliance with the king of Babylon, and invaded Assyria, capturing and destroying the city of Nineveh (B.C. 625), thus putting an end to the Assyrian monarchy (Nah. 1:8; 2:5,6; 3:13, 14).
Media now rose to a place of great power, vastly extending its boundaries. But it did not long exist as an independent kingdom. It rose with Cyaxares, its first king, and it passed away with him; for during the reign of his son and successor Astyages, the Persians waged war against the Medes and conquered them, the two nations being united under one monarch, Cyrus the Persian (B.C. 558). The "cities of the Medes" are first mentioned in connection with the deportation of the Israelites on the destruction of Samaria (2 Kings 17:6; 18:11). Soon afterwards Isaiah (13:17; 21:2) speaks of the part taken by the Medes in the destruction of Babylon (comp. Jer. 51:11, 28). Daniel gives an account of the reign of Darius the Mede, who was made viceroy by Cyrus (Dan. 6:1-28). The decree of Cyrus, Ezra informs us (6:2-5), was found in "the palace that is in the province of the Medes," Achmetha or Ecbatana of the Greeks, which is the only Median city mentioned in Scripture.

Madai [NAVE]

MADAI, son of Japheth, Gen. 10:2; 1 Chr. 1:5.
Medes [NAVE]

MEDES
Inhabitants of Media. Israelites distributed among, when carried to Assyria, 2 Kin. 17:6; 18:11.
Palace in the Babylonian province of, Ezra 6:2.
An essential part of the Medo-Persian empire, Esth. 1:1-19.
Supremacy of, in the Chaldean empire, Dan. 5:28, 31; 9:1; 11:1.
Media [NAVE]

MEDIA
See: Medes.
 
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Biblewriter

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Again, I must speak generally because this computer is borrowed and there are others who want to use it.

I was startled at the comment about "an imagined coming Jewish Messiah." This is probably not an exact quote, but it was something like this.

Anyone who cannot see another coming of Messiah is simply being wilfully blind. There are VERY MANY scriptures that speak about this coming in very explicit terms that cannot in any way be even pretended to have been fulfilled.

These range all the way from the unfulfilled prediction of the path the Assyrian will follow in Isaiah 10 through the borders and division of the land in Ezekiel 47-48 to the opening of heaven and coming in glory in the Revelation.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notrash
But Jesus does refer to the abomination that causes desolation as referred to by the Prophet Daniel as occuring in his disciples lifetime.

Jesus referred to Dan 12:11.
Quote:
Since many of the devout in Jerusalem and Israel/Judea were looking for the MESSIAH that was prophecied in Dan 9 and Dan 9 ONLY, we can associate Jesus' reference to the abomination that causes desolation that is refered to in Dan 9.
Strange reasoning


You would call this strange reasoning, But you would say that Dan 11 was referring to a Roman Empire, (I assume,) but then that Dan 9 is referring to a Empire and prince 2000 (plus) years into the future?? And my reasoning is strange?? Hmmm ;) To be honest, I do not know my position on all the kingdoms of Daniel, but I do know my position on the prophecy of the Messiah.
Me:
If Holden would allow the "He" of Dan 9:27 to be the Messiah, as proper grammatical structure AND as the Hebrew Parallelisms in prophecy and biblical writings would both support.
You:
But that is simply and purely false.

That is quite a profound and AUTHORITATIVE statement without anything to support it, other than the seeming necesity to do so in order to allow for a future dealings with Jews and a futurists alignment of Revelation with Dan 9.

If I would assert that it is simply and purely true, (That the 'HE' in Dan 9:27 is the Messiah who confirms God's covenant with "many" for 7 years, and not the Prince,) then obviously one of us is either believing a lie or presently unable to believe the truth. Both positions cannot be true.

"These times were over long ago"
Rabbi Judah, the main compiler of the Talmud
(Regarding Daniel's prophecy - Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 98b and 97a)


abbi Moses Abraham Levi
"I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."


Samuel Levine (1925) - This is apparenlty a Jewish Rabbi telling other Jews how to refute Christian Missionaries.
"Christians, for lack of a better answer, claim that the 70th week will take place when Jesus returns in his second coming as a king. The problem was caused because Daniel mentioned a total of 70 weeks, and then he specified 7 plus 62, leaving one remaining. The Christians say that the first 69 weeks were consecutive, then there is at least a 1900 year gap, and sooner or later the 70th week will occur. This is obviously a very forced explanation, born of desperation." [You take Jesus, I'll Take God: How to Refute Christian Missionaries (Los Angeles: Hamoroh Press, 1980)p. 31]

St. Augustine
"For let us not suppose that the computation of Daniel's weeks was interfered with by this shortening of those days, or that they were not already at that time complete, but had to be completed afterwards in the end of all things, for Luke most plainly testifies that the prophecy of Daniel was accomplished at the time when Jerusalem was overthrown." (Matt. 24:22,

Eusebius(314)
"And all these things were fulfilled when the seventy weeks were completed at the date of our Saviour's Coming."

Clement of Alexandria(150-215)"And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfillment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place." (Miscellanies)

Origen(2nd Century)
"The weeks of years, also, which the prophet Daniel had predicted, extending to the leadership of Christ, have been fulfilled" (Principles, 4:1:5).

William Hales (1747-1831)
"And after the sixty and two weeks, before specified, as the largest division of the 70, was the anointed [leader] cut off judicially, by an iniquitous sentence, in the midst of the one week, which formed the third and last division, and began with our Lord's Baptism, about A.D. 27.--'when he was beginning to be thirty years of age,' and commenced his mission, which lasted three years and half until his crucifixion, about A.D. 31.
"27. During this one week, which ended about A.D. 34 (about the martyrdom of Stephen,) a new covenant was established with many of the Jews, of every class; in the midst of which the Temple sacrifice was virtually abrogated by the all-sufficient sacrifice of the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the [repentant and believing] world."
Now these quotes from people in times past do not prove the completion of Daniels 9's 70 weeks, but they offer some pretty good support to that Idea. Support that shouldnt' be brushed aside lightly due to a Jesuit anti-reformation agenda or a Johnny come lately (1830-plus) system of re-interpretation that just may have been influence by the same vipers that it benefits. (that's what Jesus called the Pharisees)

TODAYS PHARISEES Let us examine what has become of the Pharisees in our modern society and how they continue to attempt to control our lives. The New Testament tells us they controlled Judea at the time of Jesus' mission. Pharisees, both Christian professing and Jewish, control Palestine again today with unimaginable brutality. Needless to say, we do not think Pharisees have gone away; else they would not be tampering with our beliefs. Nor did Webster think they had gone away, as he says in his 1950 definition that Pharisaism became modern Judaism.
The venerable traditionally Christian Webster is not the only one to say this? Proper definitions are taken from correct and proper usage of that less censored age. Many Rabbis have proudly provided the rabbinical sources for Webster's definition. The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1943, state: "The Jewish Religion as it is today traces it descent without a break from the Pharisees- their ideas and methods are found in the Talmud." And Rabbi Louis Finklestein, head of the Jewish Theological Seminary, stated in his book "History of the Jews" 1949,"Pharisaism became talmudist...the spirit of the ancient Pharisees survived unaltered ...therefore any discourse regarding the Jewish religion must be based on Talmudism." Jewish leaders were in the 1950s obviously were proud of their claim to be Pharisees.
This is not to suggest that this all Jews to be Pharisees any more than all Pharisees are Jews. But Pharisees dominated religious thinking in Jesus time and have far too much to say about what the leaders of our government do. Much worse they have established influencing over what Christians think. Pharisaic Judaism attempted but failed to censor Christian thought in the first century; today they are succeeding. This is indeed a sad reflection on popular Christian leadership. http://www.public-action.com/911/chrzion.html

Quote:Me
It is almost as if dispensationalism and zionism gone back in time to a time before Christ came to earth and apply all prophecies to the supposed future coming of the Jewish Messiah. Problem is, he already came just as prophesied.
YOU:
He came? In judgment? When?

Me thinks your ignoring or mocking the perspective that's been made plain. Thus consider The prophecy that Jesus read at the temple after his baptism. As already mentioned to Biblewriter, this prophecy and much of the old testament is written in a form Poetry and literature called Hebrew Parallelism. Isaiah 61 is one of the simplists with a 2 or 3 verse rythm. I'll again break them down so you can see that the second verse is a repetition of the similar idea as the first verse.

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me

To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

2To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the day of vengeance of our God;

To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,

To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,

Thus, the same 'acceptable year of our Lord" is the same as the day of vengence of our God. Those outside of accepting and Believing Jesus remained in wrath and were among those destroyed in Jerusalem/Judea in 70 AD. The acceptable year of the Lord and the Day of Vengence Idea of Is 61 continue onward. "Today, if you hear his voice, hearden not your heart... Hebrews.. also John 3:18;36. Gal 3:22, Rom 11:32. Rom 3:21-26.

Luke 11:32, The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here. (I wonder if these were some of those who came out of the graves?)

Luke 11:51, From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John 9:29 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

These above are in addition to the times 'this generation' is referred to the Olivet discourse.

The holy Spirit will support the same views as Jesus, which we also come to see as we learn from Him.

John 16:8,11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Jesus came in judgement upon Jerusalem who had heard him but rejected Him. He will one day come again in judgement and remaking of the earth as in the days of Noah, but this time with fire. 2 Peter 3 especially 2Peter 3.7.
 
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Notrash

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Quote:

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

This is as close to a one-verse refutation of one of the Laws of dispensationalism and of Christian-zionism that I can imagine.
You're using this text a little out of context...
Well, I don't think so at all, but rather fully in context.

The rest of the chapter support the same idea and that being that the promises given to Abraham are to his seed (those in Christ.), not genetic 'seeds'. Jesus and John the Baptist both said..... dont' think you can escape the coming wrath because ye have Abraham as your father,.....
The chapter is summarized in vs 26 & 29.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus,
29. And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were not through genetics, nor through keeping the law, but by faith in the Christ. (Believing Christ, believing God)

The view that 'faith like Abraham' was always the condition of recieving the promises, is again reflected in Roman 9 & 10 where Paul reminds them, that even in the time of Elijah.... only a remnant seed of 700 had not bowed their knee to Baal.
In addition, He says to close chapter 10, If ye had not left us a seed (both the faith seed, but especially the genetic seed that would lead to Christ) we would be as Sodom and Ghomorra (as a city and nation).
Now that the Genetic seed had come, they (Jerusalem and the Jews) became as Sodom and Ghomorrah....not only once, but again in 135 A.D.

However, there is this one too that would go against your position:
Romans 11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, that ye may not be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the nations be come in;
11:26 and so all Israel shall be saved. According as it is written, The deliverer shall come out of Zion; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 11:27 And this is the covenant from me to them, when I shall have taken away their sins


Not sure what your aiming at by now using a version that uses the word 'nations', exept perhaps to remove the section from being associated with 'the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled' as Jesus said. But even if the word Nations is used, verse 26 begins with the words AND SO, and they refer to 'in what manner' salvation comes to "All Israel" or all nations, since your using the word nations. Paul did not write, "And then, which would give a better reason to believe that 'until' would refer to something happening after the 'nations' come in.

Gal 3:22. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

I also like the word "nations" in the following section of Scripture which is then summarized at the end of Ephesians 3. This is after Paul discourses on the coming together of Jew/Gentile into a one church of 'all nations' in Chapt 2 and that the enmity that the Jews had against the Gentiles (the law) has been crucifield with Christ.

Ephs 2:8To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles (Nations) the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Summary:Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.


The prophecy in Isa 59 is referring to Christ's coming to be the mediator in the covenant. It's referring to the crucifiction and subsequent judgement on the vile and evil in Jerusalem, just as occured at the time of Christ. Thus, your invoking Rom 11 into the discussion actually supports the view that Judgement has come upon Jerusalem. Remember, Romans also was written before the desolation of Jerusalem, and God no doubt heard the crys of the Christians oppressed by the brood of Vipers, who were no doubt Abrahams genetic descendants.

These are the ways of the vile and Evil such as the Pirates that Josephus mentions in Joppa and the moneychangers in the temple.

No one calls for justice,
Nor does any plead for truth.
They trust in empty words and speak lies;
They conceive evil and bring forth iniquity.
5They hatch vipers' eggs and weave the spider's web;
He who eats of their eggs dies,
And from that which is crushed a viper breaks out.
6Their webs will not become garments,
Nor will they cover themselves with their works;
Their works are works of iniquity,
And the act of violence is in their hands.
7Their feet run to evil,
And they make haste to shed innocent blood;
Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity;
Wasting and destruction are in their paths.
8The way of peace they have not known,
And there is no justice in their ways;
They have made themselves crooked paths;
Whoever takes that way shall not know peace.

Here is the repentence that Brings on Salvation or the lamentations of the meek and repentant. There is personal application in these prophecies also.

9Therefore justice is far from us,
Nor does righteousness overtake us;
We look for light, but there is darkness!
For brightness, but we walk in blackness!
10We grope for the wall like the blind,
And we grope as if we had no eyes;
We stumble at noonday as at twilight;
We are as dead men in desolate places.
11We all growl like bears,
And moan sadly like doves;
We look for justice, but there is none;
For salvation, but it is far from us.
12For our transgressions are multiplied before You,
And our sins testify against us;
For our transgressions are with us,
And as for our iniquities, we know them:
13In transgressing and lying against the Lord,
And departing from our God,
Speaking oppression and revolt,
Conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14Justice is turned back,
And righteousness stands afar off;
For truth is fallen in the street,
And equity cannot enter.

It got so bad in Jerusalem, that those who did wish to repent made themselves a prey to the Evil ones.

15So truth fails,
And he who departs from evil makes himself a prey.
The Redeemer of Zion

Then the Lord saw it, and it displeased Him
That there was no justice.
16He saw that there was no man,
And wondered that there was no intercessor;
Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him;
And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.
17For He put on righteousness as a breastplate,
And a helmet of salvation on His head;
He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,
And was clad with zeal as a cloak.
18According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
19So shall they fear
The name of the Lord from the west,
And His glory from the rising of the sun;

When the enemy comes in like a flood,
The Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.

Keep working on that Romans 11, Again, as mentioned before, do a word study on Gifts and call and try to understand why Paul would use those words rather than "Promises and Prophecies, if he was indeed talking of a restored Israel.
 
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Micah68

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Again, I must speak generally because this computer is borrowed and there are others who want to use it.

I was startled at the comment about "an imagined coming Jewish Messiah." This is probably not an exact quote, but it was something like this.

Anyone who cannot see another coming of Messiah is simply being wilfully blind. There are VERY MANY scriptures that speak about this coming in very explicit terms that cannot in any way be even pretended to have been fulfilled.

These range all the way from the unfulfilled prediction of the path the Assyrian will follow in Isaiah 10 through the borders and division of the land in Ezekiel 47-48 to the opening of heaven and coming in glory in the Revelation.


Forgive if I am wrong, I think the argument is against Christ returning twice, first secretly to rapture the church and then lastly to establish his kingdom and millennial reign on earth. I am trying to understand this interpretation.
 
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holdon

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Media, Persia, Greece and Babylon still.






We are discussing the number of horns and not the number of rams. Media and Persia are each repesented by a horn.


Mede or Media = "middle land"

There cannot be any doubt that Media and Persia are the second power in succession after Babylon.

Dan 5:28 PERES, Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.
Dan 8:20,21 show further that Greece follows that one and is therefore the third.

Now, which is the the fourth?
 
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holdon

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Aug 3, 2005
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Support that shouldnt' be brushed aside lightly due to a Jesuit anti-reformation agenda or a Johnny come lately (1830-plus) system of re-interpretation that just may have been influence by the same vipers that it benefits. (that's what Jesus called the Pharisees)

Wow. This is it then.
 
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