A Serious Concern I have about Dispensationalism

[thereselittleflower]

Darby, well known as the father of Dispensationalism, called for the racial/ethnic cleansing/genocide of all indigenous peoples from the land promised to Abraham.

He called it the purification of the land so that the Jews might inhabit it:

Darby Called for the Purging of Arabs from the Land of Israel

The first thing, then, which the Lord will do will be to purify His land (the land which belongs to the Jews) of the Tyrians, the Philistines, the Sidonians; of Edom and Moab, and Ammon - of all the wicked, in short from the Nile to the Euphrates. It will be done by the power of Christ in favour of His people re-established by His goodness. The people are put into security in the land, and then will those of them who remain till that time among the nations be gathered together.[[41]]

J. N. Darby, ‘The Hopes.,’ The Collected Writings, Prophetic I, Vol. II, p. 380.​

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4531.htm

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

A History of Dispensational Approaches​

And in more recent times:

The RACISM inherent in HAL LINDSEY's teachings

In The Final Battle, Lindsey claims, "The Jewish state will be brought to the brink of destruction."[[82]]

The land of Israel and the surrounding area will certainly be targeted for nuclear attack. Iran and all the Muslim nations around Israel have already been targeted with Israeli nukes... Zechariah gives an unusual, detailed account of how hundreds of thousands of soldiers in the Israel battle zone will die. Their flesh will be consumed from their bones, their eyes from their sockets, and their tongues from their mouths while they stand on their feet (Zechariah 14:12)... But God's power is certainly stronger than any nuclear bomb... We do know God will supernaturally strengthen and protect the believing Israelites so that they will survive the worst holocaust the world will ever see. Amen.[[83]]​

Lindsey’s most controversial book is undoubtedly Road to Holocaust. In it, like Darby, he makes eschatology a test of orthodoxy.[[84]] He accuses those who refuse to accept dispensationalism’s distinction between the Church and Israel of encouraging anti-Semitism since they apparently deny any future role for the State of Israel within the purposes of God. This is, he claims,

...the same error that founded the legacy of contempt for the Jews and ultimately led to the Holocaust of Nazi Germany.[[85]]

The purpose of this book is to warn about a rapidly expanding new movement in the Church that is subtly introducing the same errors that eventually and inevitably led to centuries of atrocities against the Jews and culminated in the Holocaust of the Third Reich... They are setting up a philosophical system that will result in anti-Semitism.[[86]]​

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4531.htm

​

Much more at above article:

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

A History of Dispensational Approaches

By John Scott​

Further examples from the Father of Apocalyptic Christian Zionism:

'All Moslems see Israel as their enemy'

Hal Lindsey, The 1980's: Countdown to Armageddon (New York, Bantam, 1981) p. 45.​

The Arab nations are united in their fanatical obsession to destroy Israel.

Hal Lindsey, Israel and the Last Days (Eugene, Oregon, Harvest House, 1983); Combat Faith (1986); p. 33.​

The Arab nations consider it a matter of racial honour to destroy the State of Israel.

Hal Lindsey, Israel and the Last Days (Eugene, Oregon, Harvest House, 1983); Combat Faith (1986); p. 38.​

The Middle East is a powder keg, all right. But its not because of Israeli policies. Islam, with its grand and global ambitions - not Israel - is the culprit

Hal Lindsey, Planet Earth-2000 A.D. (Palos Verdes, California, Western Front, 1994); p. 175.​

Peace would only be possible, if, by some miracle, the Arabs realized that their ambitions for military and economic hegemony over Israel were delusional.

Hal Lindsey, Planet Earth-2000 A.D. (Palos Verdes, California, Western Front, 1994); p. 310.​

​

And further:

Racism of Dispensationalism

What would you think of a religious sect that taught that there is one race that is by nature superior, and another race that is by nature inferior?

And suppose that this sect taught that the superior race has a divine right to dispossess members of the inferior race and take their properties without compensation, and to ethnically cleanse those who resist this expropriation, using violence if necessary?

And suppose that this sect believed so strongly in this system of racism and ethnic cleansing that it was willing to plunge the world into war in order to fulfill its objectives.

And suppose that this sect claimed 70,000,000 adherents in the world's most powerful nation, and had a stranglehold on the foreign policy of that nation, so that the military and financial might of that nation was directed toward the goal of helping the superior race and suppressing the inferior race?

Welcome to the wonderful world of American dispensationalism. Dispensationalists, who are found in many fundamentalist and evangelical denominations, follow the theological beliefs of John Nelson Darby, C. I. Scofield and Hal Lindsey, who taught that ethnic Jews constitute a superior race who are destined to take over Palestine, then the entire Middle East and finally the world. This naturally leads to a resentment of Palestinian Arabs, and all other Middle Eastern nations that sympathize with the Palestinians in their resistance to the program of pushing them out of their historic homelands. Dispensationalism, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to racism.

​

Dispensationalism and Racism

http://www.mediamonitors.net/williamson3.html​

.

 

[JDS]

?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Now, I said all this so you may begin to get your terminology correct and we can talk about why God raised up this nation Israel and how he is extending his grace to the whole world through them, including the Arabs in palestine, but how he is justified in judging the whole world , including Israel, when we reach that epoch in human history when he has determined to do it.

So the world is raised up thru Israel? How the heck do you see Israel raised up any more than any other country
How are they bringing Christ to other Nations like Christ-ians are?


Deut 28:15 `And it hath been, if thou dost not hearken unto the voice of Jehovah thy God to observe to do all His commands, and His statutes, which I am commanding thee to-day, that all these revilings have come upon thee, and overtaken thee:
66 and thy life hath been hanging in suspense before thee, and thou hast been afraid by night and by day, and dost not believe in thy life;
67 in the morning thou sayest, O that it were evening! and in the evening thou sayest, O that it were morning! from the fear of thy heart, with which thou art afraid, and from the sight of thine eyes which thou seest. [Revelation 15/16]

 

[JDS]

“So the world is raised up thru Israel? How the heck do you see Israel raised up any more than any other country
How are they bringing Christ to other Nations like Christ-ians are?”

I did not say the world was raised up, I said Israel was raised up for four specific reasons which I can elaborate on later.

1) To preserve the highway for the seed of the woman among universal idolatry. The seed that would crush the serpents head.
2) To write and preserve the Word of God
3) To provide the means through which Jehovah could make himself known as the one true God to all the nations. (This he began to do through Pharaoh).
4) To bring the Messiah into the world

After the flood all the families of Noah fell under the authority of one Nimrod, the grandson of Ham and son of Cush and he became the first to combine offices that God has always condemned. That is the office of king and priest. This was in defiance of the instructions to scatter upon the earth and populate it. Instead, there was a unified government set up over all the people and a tower in honor of the false god. This religion was firmly established in the minds of men by the time God came down and judged them by confounding their languages thus forcing separation from one another. When they did separate they took the false religion they had learned at Babel with them and the worship of Elohim was nearly lost. Shem and many of his ancestors that are mentioned in Lk 3 as the line of the Messiah were fortunately still living at this time and there was a witness. So, the families were growing into nations and God in his love and mercy called Abraham and raised up a nation through him and promised that his seed would bless all the families of the earth. Thus the highway of the seed of the woman was preserved and the church is proof positive that members of the human race from all nations have experienced Gods gracious salvation though the greatest son of Abraham, Jesus Christ,

Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

This is the church of Jesus Christ! Notice they have been redeemed from everywhere on the earth. This is a blessing.

“So the world is raised up thru Israel? How the heck do you see Israel raised up any more than any other country
How are they bringing Christ to other Nations like Christ-ians are?”

All God’s redemptive activity since the call of Abraham is through this nation Israel because all the covenants of promise are given to them. We are fortunate as gentiles that God is so gracious that when Israel refused the promise of the Spirit and the forgiveness of sins, both provisions and promises of the New Covenant which was established in the death and resurrection of Christ, in the early chapters of Acts, God graciously made the gentiles partakers with the remnant according to the election of grace, the few Jewish believers in Christ.

Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The covenants are where the unconditional promises are.

Here is the condition of the gentiles (nations) before Christ came.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past (Before Christ came) Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
2 That at that time
1) ye were without Christ, being
2) aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and
3) strangers from the covenants of promise,
4) having no hope, and
5) without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now (Paul wrote this in AD 60 and the “but now” is present tense since Christ offered grace to the gentiles) in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified (That would be the Jewish believers, i e the first fruits of the faith) by faith that is in me. (Satan controlled them through false religion).

God has not forgotten a single clause of his covenant with Abraham and will keep every promise. At this time though, he is keeping his promise of a spiritual seed. There is a spiritual seed and there is a physical seed and promises concerning both.

 

[Biblewriter]

The OP here is a false accusation.

Neither Darby or Lindsey called for ethnic cleansing in the quotations given by TLF, or in any other place that I know about. Lindsey's statements are much more interpretative that Darby's, but neither of them advocated such action. They only stated the obvious Biblical conclusion that it will happen. Referring to God's often repeated statements about what He would do when He comes is very different from calling of such a thing to be done, as if we were supposed to attempt to make them happen. Dispensationalism plainly teaches that the present age is the age of grace, in which a pardon is freely offered to anyone who will repent and trust in Jesus. It Just as plainly teaches that the time of judgment is future, after Jesus returns in power, not now.

The Old Testament devoted many chapters to the extreme punishment that will be given the entire world when Jesus returns in power. Numerous passages specifically discuss His punishments of the nations surrounding Israel. Others specifically discuss His punishment of Israel itself. Yet others specifically state that Israel will eventually repent and will afterward be blessed. (see my thread on the unfulfilled promise of Israel's repentance.)To deny this is to deny a vast amount of plainly stated scripture.

I, like JDS, am unaware of even one dispensationalist that teaches that Israel is a superior race. We only point out that the scriptures clearly teach that God has chosen them for a special blessing. The Bible teaches this in many places, going so far as specifically say three times over that whoever blesses Israel is blessed, and whoever curses them is cursed. (Genesis 12:3, Genesis 27:29, and Numbers 24:9)

 

[thereselittleflower]

thereselittleflower,

As usual I find your remarks uniformed and misrepresentative of fundamentalism and dispensationalism.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

You said;
"What would you think of a religious sect that taught that there is one race that is by nature superior, and another race that is by nature inferior?"

No, I didn't say that .. I quoted someone else saying that.

It is a misnomer to use the word race in the manner you have done. There is only one race of humanity on the planet. All of us are from the same race.

HORSEFEATHERS. Now you are redefining the word race to a different use than was used IN THE CONTEXT of the work I quoted.

Now this is becoming rediculous on your part. Your argument is a nonsequitor . . IT DOES NOT FOLLOW.

Ac 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

This verse should make two things clear;
1) All men are of one race
2) God execises his own will in appointing the boundaries of the nations (He can do that-he is God)

And your argument should make one thing clear, you are trying to obfuscate instead of deal with a legitimate word used in a legitimate way to deal with the VARIOUS RACES among mankind,

And so we see further deflection, a strawman red herring instead of dealing with the REAL and ACTUAL arguments presented.

No dice.

Having said that though, God has instructed us that this race of men are divided into 3 families, and wouldn't you know it, everything God orders has the trinitarian signiture associated with it?

And we continue down this illogical road that has nothing to do with the material quoted, or the word race as used in that material, or what it actually means in that material.

More strawman red herrings . . logical fallacious argumentation.

No other response is necessary.

Now, you slanderously said dispensationalists are racists;[/qote]

No, I said the root and the fruit of DispensationalISM is racist. That doesn't mean that all dispensationalists are racist, for not all dispensationalist follow dispenationalism to its logical end and conclusion.

"What would you think of a religious sect that taught that there is one race that is by nature superior, and another race that is by nature inferior?"

I did not say this, I was quoting another work.

I have never heard any dispensationalist ever come close to saying that one race (or nation) was superior to any other or that a nation was inferior.

I quoted Darby among other things. You must be ignorng the evidence. Maybe you should read the article you keep quoting instead of arguing against what you don't understand. It is obvious you have not read it.

That is not the issue when dealing with the prophetic word. And also, Israel or any other nation is not going to purge anyone out of the land that God gave Abraham in his covenant, but God himself is going to do it. He is God, he has that right and who can oppose him?`

Yet that is exactly what Israel has been doing for a century or more.

That is exactly what Zionism and its "IRON WALL" has been doing for a century or more.

That is exatly what the Zionist IRON WALL program is designed for.

And even here, you reveal the racist nature of the dispensationalist belief system, and make GOD into a racist!

You make God a racist by making GOD responsible for the PURGING OF OTHER RACES!!!!

And so you prove my point!

It matters not who is the one who does the purging, but that Dispnesationalism CALLS FOR SUCH RACIAL PURGING!

Now one thing concerning God's covenant and how it is confirmed and ratified. Speaking particularly about the Abrahamic covenant and generally about all his covenants, he said this.

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

This does absolutely nothing to help you absolve the racist teachings that God will PURGE OTHER RACES from the land of Israel, which you admitted to above is part of dispenationalist teaching.

(I appreciate, by the way, you helping to make it so obvious.)

There is no higher authority than God so he bound himself to these promises with an oath. Now, he must keep them, everyone of them or his holy character is compromised.

Nothing there helps your case.

Now, I said all this so you may begin to get your terminology correct and we can talk about why God raised up this nation Israel and how he is extending his grace to the whole world through them, including the Arabs in palestine, but how he is justified in judging the whole world , including Israel, when we reach that epoch in human history when he has determined to do it.

Pardon me, but I don't remember giving you any authority to define how words must be used in my thread, or any sources I have or will quote. Are you under the impressuion someone did so? If so, who?

If you want to talk about races in such a manner, please feel free to start your own thread. Tbis one is not the one for you to do so in, and if you continue with this off topic discourse, I will not respond to it further.

Your comments above are promoting the racist ideology of Dispeensationalism which makes the Jewish race superior to all others, teaching they will be spared, given special treatement because of their race, while God PURGES OTHER RACES out of their land.

That is, by defintion, racism.

Dispensationlists desire that the Arabs embrace the saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, and become our brothers in Christ. We also desire that for the Israelis. The politics will work themselves out all in God's good timing, but now is the day of salvation for all who will come to Christ.

Of course Dispensationalist desire that Arabs embrace the savior, as many do and have done for the last 2000 years. You are aware of that, right?

How ever, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

We are talking about the disparte treatment of races, the elevation of the Jewish race to specials status and priviledge and the lowering of other races beneath the Jews, denying the same status and priviledges.

That belief is central to dispenstionalism in varying degrees. Its presence cannot be obejctively denied.

You have given us fine examples of it yourself in your response.

.

 

[thereselittleflower]

The OP here is a false accusation.

Neither Darby or Lindsey called for ethnic cleansing in the quotations given by TLF, or in any other place that I know about. Lindsey's statements are much more interpretative that Darby's, but neither of them advocated such action. They only stated the obvious Biblical conclusion that it will happen. Referring to God's often repeated statements about what He would do when He comes is very different from calling of such a thing to be done, as if we were supposed to attempt to make them happen. Dispensationalism plainly teaches that the present age is the age of grace, in which a pardon is freely offered to anyone who will repent and trust in Jesus. It Just as plainly teaches that the time of judgment is future, after Jesus returns in power, not now.

The Old Testament devoted many chapters to the extreme punishment that will be given the entire world when Jesus returns in power. Numerous passages specifically discuss His punishments of the nations surrounding Israel. Others specifically discuss His punishment of Israel itself. Yet others specifically state that Israel will eventually repent and will afterward be blessed. (see my thread on the unfulfilled promise of Israel's repentance.)To deny this is to deny a vast amount of plainly stated scripture.

I, like JDS, am unaware of even one dispensationalist that teaches that Israel is a superior race. We only point out that the scriptures clearly teach that God has chosen them for a special blessing. The Bible teaches this in many places, going so far as specifically say three times over that whoever blesses Israel is blessed, and whoever curses them is cursed. (Genesis 12:3, Genesis 27:29, and Numbers 24:9)

Evidently biblewriter didn't bother to read the OP and the evidence given in it. . . . . . .

.

 

[JDS]

You Said,
“Now that is just plain silliness. Everyone knows that someone who believes in the equality of races as I do, that all races should be treated the same, is certainly not racist.

Where did you ever come up with such an idea. My, my!

Someone who upholds the special treatement of one race over all others as you do below, gnerally fits the term "racist".

Me
Thanks for sharing your opinion! (Self righteous though it may be)

You have not been paying attention and you have not dealt with the material. Your MO remains the same in any discussion in which I have read your comments. When you have no answer, just accuse them of being off the subject or some other silly response that indicates you are approaching the subject from pure emotions or a presupposition that does not include believing the promises of God in his plain and unambiguous covenants in Scripture.

You made this charge:

“Darby, well known as the father of Dispensationalism, called for the racial/ethnic cleansing/genocide of all indigenous peoples from the land promised to Abraham.”

Then you quoted this as proof:

“Darby Called for the Purging of Arabs from the Land of Israel
The first thing, then, which the Lord will do will be to purify His land (the land which belongs to the Jews) of the Tyrians, the Philistines, the Sidonians; of Edom and Moab, and Ammon - of all the wicked, in short from the Nile to the Euphrates. It will be done by the power of Christ in favour of His people re-established by His goodness. The people are put into security in the land, and then will those of them who remain till that time among the nations be gathered together.[[41]]

J. N. Darby, ‘The Hopes.,’ The Collected Writings, Prophetic I, Vol. II, p. 380.”

He merely made a comment as to what God will do based on 1) the promise to Abraham concerning the land and 2) the subsequent promises to the promised nation in the prophetic Scriptures as time and his purposes unfold in his dealings with them.

Your charges are unfounded and are untrue as anyone who can read can clearly see.

This following exchange is plain comical:
Quote:
Ac 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

This verse should make two things clear;
1) All men are of one race
2) God execises his own will in appointing the boundaries of the nations (He can do that-he is God)
“And your argument should make one thing clear, you are trying to obfuscate instead of deal with a legitimate word used in a legitimate way to deal with the VARIOUS RACES among mankind,

And so we see further deflection, a strawman red herring instead of dealing with the REAL and ACTUAL arguments presented.”


I SUPPOSE YOU ARE SAYING YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING AND VIEWS SHOULD TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER THE Scriptures where God has made statements concerning his own prerogatives relative to national boundaries. We should believe you instead of God.
You may think the Palestinians did not ever have a homeland in God’s great scheme and that they have always occupied Palestine. If so, you are wrong! Palestinians represent the Arab nations of the area and have been used as pawns in that political climate for years.

You:
“You make God a racist by making GOD responsible for the PURGING OF OTHER RACES!!!!”

Are you actually kidding? Are you that ignorant of the Scriptures and the history it records? Consider these excerpts of previous actions of God.

De 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

Ac 13:19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

Was this racism in your view or was it God exercising his prerogative as God in the affairs of men?

The fact is that God gave the land that was being occupied by others to Israel. Further, the conditions for Israel to remain in the land were set forth in the Palestinian or land covenant found in De 28-31. They were presented as blessing and curses. Blessings if they obeyed God as set forth in the Mosaic covenant and, curses, which would ultimately lead to their expulsion from the land as a disciplinary action if they did not obey. History has recorded three dispersions of this people from their land. Dispersion though did not mean that the Abrahamic covenant was voided because that same covenant promised that God would in due time bring them back from their dispersion from all the nations of the world. This dispersion took place in AD 70 and lasted until the Zionist movement in the late 1800’s that led to the modern state of Israel in AD 1948. This is the beginning of the fulfillment of the promises of the Palestinian covenant found following that will be complete when Jesus returns in glory.

De 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, (One should read the previous 2 chapters for these blessings and curses) and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return (A reference and promise of the second coming of Christ, setting the time this will happen) and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, (A reference to the indwelling Spirit of God) to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return (to the land) and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

You said:

“If you want to talk about races in such a manner, please feel free to start your own thread. Tbis one is not the one for you to do so in, and if you continue with this off topic discourse, I will not respond to it further.”

Me:
Do as you wish. It matters not to me but I will comment on your statements when it pleases me unless the administrators prohibit it.

 

[Biblewriter]

No, I said the root and the fruit of DispensationalISM is racist. That doesn't mean that all dispensationalists are racist, for not all dispensationalist follow dispenationalism to its logical end and conclusion.

You are projecting. You claim racism is" the logical end and conclusion of dispensationalism," while demontrating beyond any possibility of debate that you do not understand dispensationalism.
You claim that we favor ethnic cleansing, but I have never read even one dispensational article that called for this.

I quoted Darby among other things. You must be ignorng the evidence. Maybe you should read the article you keep quoting instead of arguing against what you don't understand. It is obvious you have not read it.



Yet that is exactly what Israel has been doing for a century or more.

That is exactly what Zionism and its "IRON WALL" has been doing for a century or more.

That is exatly what the Zionist IRON WALL program is designed for.

How could Israel have been doing this for a century or more when it is not yet a century old?

Pardon me, but I don't remember giving you any authority to define how words must be used in my thread, or any sources I have or will quote. Are you under the impressuion someone did so? If so, who?

If you want to talk about races in such a manner, please feel free to start your own thread. Tbis one is not the one for you to do so in, and if you continue with this off topic discourse, I will not respond to it further.

You seem to be unaware that the administrators finally began purging the flaming remarks of evolutionists from the creationist sub-forum. You keep coming in here and flaming dispensationalism in general, and some dispensationalists in particular, and then claim that since it is your thread, you get to make rules about how you get answered. These may indeed be the rules of politeness, but you have never bothered about such rules as you have repeatedly attacked my threads and the threads of other dispensationalists in this sub-forum and in the eschatology sub-forum.

Your comments above are promoting the racist ideology of Dispeensationalism which makes the Jewish race superior to all others, teaching they will be spared, given special treatement because of their race, while God PURGES OTHER RACES out of their land.

That is, by defintion, racism.

You accuse me and others of not reading the posts we are responding to, but you are the one who does not seem to be reading them. I pointed out that dispensationalism teaches that Israel will be punished more severely that any other other group ever was, and that this punishment will last long enough to make them finally ready to repent. This is not teaching that they will be spared. They will be spared only after they finally repent. AT that time it will be right and proper that they be spared.

Of course Dispensationalist desire that Arabs embrace the savior, as many do and have done for the last 2000 years. You are aware of that, right?

How ever, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

We are talking about the disparte treatment of races, the elevation of the Jewish race to specials status and priviledge and the lowering of other races beneath the Jews, denying the same status and priviledges.

That belief is central to dispenstionalism in varying degrees. Its presence cannot be obejctively denied.

You have given us fine examples of it yourself in your response.

.

As others have already said, your problem is with God, not with us. We are only reporting what God said He would do. The only way to deny that God has said He will do this is to deny that the Holy Scriptures came from God. Do you deny that?

 

[Oye11]

Hello ladies and gentleman. In John Chapter 8 the Pharisees are under the notion that they are individually the chosen of God based on their ethnicity and Christ corrects this in no uncertain terms, telling them, "..you are of your father the devil..." WOW. No wonder they wanted to kill the guy... And Paul follows in Romans Chapter 9 verse 6 saying "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel." Seems it might have been a matter of the heart all along... And when you look at the nation of Israel today, one that is heavily involved in "white slavery," a scheme that involves importing women from Eastern Europe under false pretenses, taking their passports and forcing them to work in dirty brothels, etc. one cannot help but wonder if Zionism is not a work of man rather than God. That is especially so considering the ever so important point, that they almost unanimously reject God`s salvic economy through the cross. Perhaps some like the boisturous John Hagee would consider the mere mention of these facts "anti-Semticism," but yet these are all legit questions for the Dispensationist. Are they not? If anyone can entertain a response inbetween responses to Teresa I`d be interested in reading it. Thanks.

 

[JDS]

Oye11


“And when you look at the nation of Israel today, one that is heavily involved in "white slavery," a scheme that involves importing women from Eastern Europe under false pretenses, taking their passports and forcing them to work in dirty brothels, etc. one cannot help but wonder if Zionism is not a work of man rather than God. That is especially so considering the ever so important point, that they almost unanimously reject God`s salvic economy through the cross.”


I suppose anyone can come on here and say anything they want and no proof is needed for their claims. Are we to believe this because it is stated by an anti-Semite? Is this common knowledge and I have just missed it some how?

You
“that they almost unanimously reject God`s salvic economy through the cross.”

Me.

Is God’s arm shortened that he cannot save? Is the unbelief of Israel too tall of a hill for God to climb? Does God specialize in saving the ungodly or not? Are all the covenants made null and void because Israel are not Christians? Has God ever said he was going to save Israel? The answer to this question is “yes”.


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Now a mystery in Scripture is God’s method of hiding his truths in plain sight to the unbelievers while revealing those truths to the redeemed who have the indwelling and discerning Spirit of God. It is important to know these mysteries but it is impossible for the greatest human teacher to teach them to the unregenerate heart. They must be revealed by the Spirit.

If you are one who cannot understand the mysteries of the faith, I advise you to take counsel with your soul and determine if you are really in the faith.

Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (because they would not come to Christ in faith)
Lu 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (hid in plain sight)
1Co 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing

Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (this context is the mystery of the rapture and the glorified body.)

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) The mystery of Christ is the church.

Etc, etc.

This why some who comments struggles so and cannot understand, always reaching wrong conclusions:

Dispensationalists generally have some understanding of these things because they read closely.

 

[Biblewriter]

That is especially so considering the ever so important point, that they almost unanimously reject God`s salvic economy through the cross. Perhaps some like the boisturous John Hagee would consider the mere mention of these facts "anti-Semticism," but yet these are all legit questions for the Dispensationist. Are they not? If anyone can entertain a response inbetween responses to Teresa I`d be interested in reading it. Thanks.

We would far rather respond to legitimate questions than respond to TLF.

But I do not consider the first part of your post even worthy of a response. Such a charge is so manifestly prejudiced that I will ignore it.

As to the last part of your post, it is a very legitimate question, but it has already been responded to in the thread "the unfulfilled promise of Israel's repentance in this sub-forum.

Israel, in its present state, is truly unworthy of God's protection and will soon be subjected to the worst time any nation on earth has ever experienced. But to keep the ancient promises, God has promised to preserve a remnant of them and to eventually bring that remnant to repentance. This has also already been discussed in this thread.

 

[Oye11]

I suppose anyone can come on here and say anything they want and no proof is needed for their claims. Are we to believe this because it is stated by an anti-Semite? Is this common knowledge and I have just missed it some how?

I guess you have missed it because the notorious Israeli brothels and the means to acquire workers have been covered on American TV specials and numerous news reports. And Israeli government records reveal the use of severe torture on prisoners.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/637293.stm

Also the "anti-Semite" accusation/ad hominem concerns me as it too often applies to anyone who dares to say something negative about Zionism. This stifles discussion, plus, no nation or person deserves a pass simply because of their ethnicity or based what happened to their ancestors in the 40s.

Is God’s arm shortened that he cannot save? Is the unbelief of Israel too tall of a hill for God to climb? Does God specialize in saving the ungodly or not? Are all the covenants made null and void because Israel are not Christians? Has God ever said he was going to save Israel? The answer to this question is “yes”.

Okay, but there seems to be some question as to who "Israel" is. I noticed you didn`t address the concerns raised in John Chapter 8. Here are the verses. What is going on here? Jesus seems to be very clearly against any notion that standing with God is in any way based on birth or ethnicity.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

If you are one who cannot understand the mysteries of the faith, I advise you to take counsel with your soul and determine if you are really in the faith.

Huh? So you question my salvation because I`m not sold on your eschatalogy and applications to current socio-political events? Please.... LOL Yours is a rather new and minority view in Christendom. Anyway I`d like to hear your take on John 8 verses 33-44. Why would Christ say those things to these individual ethnic Jews if they were the chosen and hiers to future promises?

 

[Oye11]

But I do not consider the first part of your post even worthy of a response. Such a charge is so manifestly prejudiced that I will ignore it. .

Tell that to the young, impoverished Eastern Euro women who answered ads to become a cocktail waitress or other legit job in Israel, but arrived, get beaten, had their passport taken and are working under intimidation in filthy Tel Aviv brothels, all while the government looks the other way. Tell the same to the prisoners tortured and paralyzed in Israeli custody. Then, write BBC World News, one of the world`s most credible media sources if not the most, and tell them they are "so manifestly prejudiced"....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/637293.stm

 

[Oye11]

edit

 

[Biblewriter]

Tell that to the young, impoverished Eastern Euro women who answered ads to become a cocktail waitress or other legit job in Israel, but arrived, get beaten, had their passport taken and are working under intimidation in filthy Tel Aviv brothels, all while the government looks the other way. Tell the same to the prisoners tortured and paralyzed in Israeli custody. Then, write BBC World News, one of the world`s most credible media sources if not the most, and tell them they are "so manifestly prejudiced"....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/637293.stm

The BBC News Service is cut from the same cloth as what has come to be called the mainstream news in the United States. Both have demonstrated their prejudice so many times that their credibility has been completely destroyed. The only people who consider them credible are those who are themselves so prejudiced that they would believe any charge against the subjects of their ire. That is why their audience has been shrinking so dramatically in recent years.

But since you choose to believe this story, I will answer that sex slavery goes on in almost every society, even in the United States. But it is illegal in Israel, even as it is illegal in the United States. I flatly do not believe charges that the Israeli government tolerates such things. But in some countries, such as India and parts of Africa, it is legal. Yet these same news people show very little interest in that.

As to torture of prisoners, these same news people call it torture when a man is deprived of sleep for long periods of time, but do not call it torture when the organizations these people come from cut off heads and murder children.

 

[Oye11]

The BBC News Service is cut from the same cloth as what has come to be called the mainstream news in the United States. Both have demonstrated their prejudice so many times that their credibility has been completely destroyed. The only people who consider them credible are those who are themselves so prejudiced that they would believe any charge against the subjects of their ire. That is why their audience has been shrinking so dramatically in recent years.

But since you choose to believe this story, I will answer that sex slavery goes on in almost every society, even in the United States. But it is illegal in Israel, even as it is illegal in the United States. I flatly do not believe charges that the Israeli government tolerates such things. But in some countries, such as India and parts of Africa, it is legal. Yet these same news people show very little interest in that.

As to torture of prisoners, these same news people call it torture when a man is deprived of sleep for long periods of time, but do not call it torture when the organizations these people come from cut off heads and murder children.

Oh please, more media conspiracy nonsense....LOL There is simply nothing that can be said to someone like yourself that is willing to disbelieve, try and minimize, and back the Zionists at any cost. BBC is highly credible and I challenge you to prove otherwise. Yes, the Israeli`s have routinely tortured prisoners with severe consequences to the victims. It`s in their own reports. Yes, human trafficking exists other places but it`s growing like a weed in Israel. Police interest has been minimal. Sentences for the occasional perp brought to justice are light, sometimes only community service, and human rights orgs are naturally very interested in the issue. True Christians should be as well.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/23/world/main682673.shtml

As to the American media, if anything it is pro-Israel, and thorough exposes on the sex slavery have been aired here. Sounds like you`ve been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh but even he wouldn`t go for this. "Unholy land" is the word for that place today with their torture and 100s of nasty brothels containing many slaves. I could care less in the context of this discussion if the same thing happens in Africa. We aren`t sending 8 million a day to Uganda nor is anyone alleging their ethnic group has a special religious status...

 

[JDS]

Oye11,

You,
“Huh? So you question my salvation because I`m not sold on your eschatalogy and applications to current socio-political events? Please.... LOL Yours is a rather new and minority view in Christendom.”

Me
This is not unusual advice and I should take it as well as all of us here. We should all be sure we are in the faith.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
I would not think this advice would offend you.

You:
“Okay, but there seems to be some question as to who "Israel" is. I noticed you didn`t address the concerns raised in John Chapter 8. Here are the verses. What is going on here?

Then you concluded:
Jesus seems to be very clearly against any notion that standing with God is in any way based on birth or ethnicity.”

Me:
Your conclusions are dead wrong, friend. There are some things that your presuppositions will never allow you to learn. I doubt seriously you will accept my explanation but I do know the answer to your question. I will answer it in detail but not now because I must retire soon so I can work tomorrow. I will deal some with it briefly to give you food for thought.

The answer to your question is given in Ro 9-11. However, Israel from her very beginning has always been typified as two Israel’s as God viewed this nation and family of Jacob. There was a physical Israel that was religious but faithless and went through the motions of worship but their heart was far from God. They always were the majority of Israel; the second Israel was the faithful among the greater Israel who did have a heart to please God and sought to do so and were spiritual. This was always the minority and was given the name in the prophets and the NT as the remnant. In Is 1, it was a very small remnant. In Elijah’s day it was 7000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal. In the NT it was the remnant according to the election of grace, which God called the true Israel in Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Both these Israel’s are typified in Ro 9. Israel after the flesh is typified by Esau. Consider; Ro 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob then is the type of Israel after the Spirit or spiritual Israel. One can remember the story how Jacob and Esau struggled in the womb even before they were born. The Scriptures tells us the spirit wrestles against the flesh and the flesh against the spirit so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Also we are told that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God has nothing good to say about the flesh. “…cursed is the man who maketh flesh his arm”. These nations still struggle against one another even today. The types always has the flesh first and then the spirit. Consider what Jesus told the Jewish ruler, Nicodemas.

“Ye must be born again”.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Now, all through the Scriptures this dual Israel has been typified.
Abraham – Lot
Isaac – Ishmael
Jacob – Esau
Judah – Ephraim
The prodigal son parable
The two sons sent to labor in the vineyard. Mt 21:28

Now, in a nutshell, it was the fleshly Israel that persecuted the Spiritual Christ and put him to death because he testified against it. But Israel will all be saved one day and will be spiritual and governed by the Spirit and the weakness of the flesh will be overcome and there will no longer be a carnal Israel. There must be a great purging of the dross before that happens though. It is close at hand.

I know this is not sufficient to answer your question but, as I said, it will give you food for thought until I have more time.

One must understand Israel as God sees her.

 

[Oye11]

This is not unusual advice and I should take it as well as all of us here. We should all be sure we are in the faith.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
I would not think this advice would offend you.

Come on.... You brought that up in the context of a debate, implying that I might not be saved because I lacked an alleged special knowledge you possess. Well if being saved equates with finding Darbyism then no one in Church history, at least post 1st C., was saved until the 1800s.

Your conclusions are dead wrong, friend. There are some things that your presuppositions will never allow you to learn. I doubt seriously you will accept my explanation but I do know the answer to your question. I will answer it in detail but not now because I must retire soon so I can work tomorrow. I will deal some with it briefly to give you food for thought.

The answer to your question is given in Ro 9-11. However, Israel from her very beginning has always been typified as two Israel’s as God viewed this nation and family of Jacob. There was a physical Israel that was religious but faithless and went through the motions of worship but their heart was far from God. They always were the majority of Israel; the second Israel was the faithful among the greater Israel who did have a heart to please God and sought to do so and were spiritual. This was always the minority and was given the name in the prophets and the NT as the remnant. In Is 1, it was a very small remnant. In Elijah’s day it was 7000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal. In the NT it was the remnant according to the election of grace, which God called the true Israel in Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Both these Israel’s are typified in Ro 9. Israel after the flesh is typified by Esau. Consider; Ro 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob then is the type of Israel after the Spirit or spiritual Israel. One can remember the story how Jacob and Esau struggled in the womb even before they were born. The Scriptures tells us the spirit wrestles against the flesh and the flesh against the spirit so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Also we are told that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God has nothing good to say about the flesh. “…cursed is the man who maketh flesh his arm”. These nations still struggle against one another even today. The types always has the flesh first and then the spirit. Consider what Jesus told the Jewish ruler, Nicodemas.

“Ye must be born again”.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Now, all through the Scriptures this dual Israel has been typified.
Abraham – Lot
Isaac – Ishmael
Jacob – Esau
Judah – Ephraim
The prodigal son parable
The two sons sent to labor in the vineyard. Mt 21:28

Now, in a nutshell, it was the fleshly Israel that persecuted the Spiritual Christ and put him to death because he testified against it. But Israel will all be saved one day and will be spiritual and governed by the Spirit and the weakness of the flesh will be overcome and there will no longer be a carnal Israel. There must be a great purging of the dross before that happens though. It is close at hand.

I know this is not sufficient to answer your question but, as I said, it will give you food for thought until I have more time.

One must understand Israel as God sees her.

Okay, thank you for that, and my echatalogical views are not set in stone, irregardless of your "presupposition" about me... I`ve read Romans 9-11 but John 8-33-44 still bugs me. I`d like to read a full debate between a competent Amillennialist and Dispensationalist theologian. I guess I will look around for it.

 

[thereselittleflower]

You Said,

“Now that is just plain silliness. Everyone knows that someone who believes in the equality of races as I do, that all races should be treated the same, is certainly not racist.

Where did you ever come up with such an idea. My, my!

Someone who upholds the special treatement of one race over all others as you do below, gnerally fits the term "racist".​

Me
Thanks for sharing your opinion! (Self righteous though it may be)

Well, two things.

First, it is not merely my opinion. It is a fact based on the definition of racist.

Shall we look at the word racist and see if what I stated above is mere opinion or fact?

Let's look:

Definitions of Racist

1. based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks"
2. a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others
   [*]discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Racism has many different definitions. Historically, it has been defined as the belief that race is the primary determinant of human capacities, that a certain race is inherently superior or inferior to others, and/or that individuals should be treated differently according to their racial designation. Sometimes racism means beliefs, practices, and institutions that discriminate against people based on their perceived or ascribed race. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racist​

Obviously, if one believes that all races should be treated the same, that there should be no discrimination either positive or negative, one way or the other, based on race, religion or ethnicity, then one is not racist.

Since this is what I believe and advocate for, even in Israel, I am not racist by definition.

However, since you advocate that the Jewish race should receive special, preferential treatment above all other races, you are, by definition, racist, regardless of your reasons for being so.

"Reasons" do not make racist positions non-racist.

We are simply looking at what you have said and comparing it what the definition of racist is.

These are the facts by definition. Not mere opinion.

And since they are simply facts, there is nothing self righteous about it. However, given your accusation against me in your first post, well . . . .

You have not been paying attention and you have not dealt with the material.

I have paid very close attention and red herrings and strawman arguments are not to be given any credibility, so I will not be dealing with your material on the 'races' as it is immaterial to my OP.

All that was necessary was to expose its logically fallacious nature.

If you wish to continue to argue it, find another thread to do so in. Your perosnal opinoins about what a race is is not what this thread is about. Please be more respectful. Thank you.

Your MO remains the same in any discussion in which I have read your comments. When you have no answer, just accuse them of being off the subject or some other silly response that indicates you are approaching the subject from pure emotions or a presupposition that does not include believing the promises of God in his plain and unambiguous covenants in Scripture.

Thank you for your opinion, which has nothing to do with anything in this thread by the way. If this continues, I will not respond further to you.

You made this charge:

“Darby, well known as the father of Dispensationalism, called for the racial/ethnic cleansing/genocide of all indigenous peoples from the land promised to Abraham.”​

Then you quoted this as proof:

“Darby Called for the Purging of Arabs from the Land of Israel
The first thing, then, which the Lord will do will be to purify His land (the land which belongs to the Jews) of the Tyrians, the Philistines, the Sidonians; of Edom and Moab, and Ammon - of all the wicked, in short from the Nile to the Euphrates. It will be done by the power of Christ in favour of His people re-established by His goodness. The people are put into security in the land, and then will those of them who remain till that time among the nations be gathered together.[[41]]

J. N. Darby, ‘The Hopes.,’ The Collected Writings, Prophetic I, Vol. II, p. 380.”​

He merely made a comment as to what God will do based on 1) the promise to Abraham concerning the land and 2) the subsequent promises to the promised nation in the prophetic Scriptures as time and his purposes unfold in his dealings with them.

You are missing the point.

The REASONS for being racist in one's teachings, opinions, beliefs are immaterial and irrelevant.

The issue is, it is RACIST to say that all other races will be purged from a particular land so that one particular race may possess it.

Now, what you and Darby have done is push responsiblity for your racist positions off on God in an attempt to justify them.

THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM ANY LESS RACIST.

What you are doing is JUSTIFYING RACISM based on what you think God has said.

What you are implying is that it is prefectly fine for a CHRSITIAN to be RACIST in the Jew's favor.

See, you can blame it on God all you want, it doesn't make it any less racist!


That is the point you are missing.

Your charges are unfounded and are untrue as anyone who can read can clearly see.

This following exchange is plain comical:
Quote:
Ac 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

This verse should make two things clear;
1) All men are of one race
2) God execises his own will in appointing the boundaries of the nations (He can do that-he is God)
“And your argument should make one thing clear, you are trying to obfuscate instead of deal with a legitimate word used in a legitimate way to deal with the VARIOUS RACES among mankind,

And so we see further deflection, a strawman red herring instead of dealing with the REAL and ACTUAL arguments presented.”


I SUPPOSE YOU ARE SAYING YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING AND VIEWS SHOULD TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER THE Scriptures where God has made statements concerning his own prerogatives relative to national boundaries. We should believe you instead of God.
You may think the Palestinians did not ever have a homeland in God’s great scheme and that they have always occupied Palestine. If so, you are wrong! Palestinians represent the Arab nations of the area and have been used as pawns in that political climate for years.

No, I am saying that the USUAL and CUSTOMARY understanding of the ENGLISH word RACE takes precedent when it is used in our conversation as this is the word and meaning used in the quoted material and MY USE of it in my OP.

You have absolutely no right to come into my thread and apply a defintion that has nothing to do with anything I said or quoted, which then destroys the context of the quoted material and my own words. That is a STRAWMAN. A LOGICAL FALLACY. I will not engage you on your logical fallacies.

You are way off in left field and I will not play your game.

You want to debate your personal defintion of the word "race", then please find another thread to do so in.

This thread is not about your personal definition of the word "race" and your personal definition of the word "race" has no bearing on anything I have said.

You:

“You make God a racist by making GOD responsible for the PURGING OF OTHER RACES!!!!”​

Are you actually kidding? Are you that ignorant of the Scriptures and the history it records? Consider these excerpts of previous actions of God.

Hopefully, after reading the above, you have gotten the point and how you are simply "missing the boat" as to what the real issue is.

De 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

Ac 13:19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.​

Was this racism in your view or was it God exercising his prerogative as God in the affairs of men?

God can exercise any perrogative He wishes. He was dealing with nations and using the Jews to exact His judgement upon nations.

He was not telling the Jews to treat those they lived side by side with differently than they treated theirselves. They were to treat the non-Jews the same as they treated themselves.

God was not racist.

In fact for those who operate under the illusion that the State of Israel is merely following the commands given by God to separate from other peoples, etc, here is a command of God's that has direct bearing on how we atre to view and judge how the State of Israel is treating the Palestinians and non-Jews in their midst - this clear command in Ezekiel 47:21-23:

"You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native born Israelites; along with you they to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance, " declares the Sovereign Lord."

​

As someone else said in another place:

"Israel was NEVER an exclussive Jewish State."​

So much for The State of Israel only doing what the Jews were commanded to do. So much for the State of Israel supposedly being made by God to be an exlcusive Jewish State.

All teaching, opinions, support, ect to the contrary are AGAINST the clear DECLARATION above by GOD HIMSELF.

Now, you are faced with a dilemna, and for the sake of exploring this dilemna let's assume that the dispensationalist position of a re-established Nation of Israel is correct, though by no means to I even begin to agree with this.

So, exploring the dilemna - If God is reistablishing a State for the Jewish people, purging its land of all other races so the Jewish people can live in peace and safety as Darby and dispensationalism claims, then God is contradicting His OWN COMMAND to the Jewish people to treat the NON JEWS just the same as they treat themselves, to given the land along with the Jews, that they are to be considered as native born Israelites, they are to be given an inheritance right along with the tribes of Israel.

So, since this is the CLEAR DELCARATION of GOD regarding the ownership of land and treatement of non-Jews in the Land promised to Abraham, then God obviously hasn't called or planned for the PURGING, PURIFYING FROM the land all races so the Jews can possess it in peace and safety.

God is not a liar.

God does not contradict Himself.

The racist ideology of dispenationalism is clearly not from God.

It is from the racist errors of Darby and those who followed him.

So, the is obviously not at all about God exercising His perrrogatives in the affairs of men.

It is about men who have abused the word of God to their own racist purposes.

The fact is that God gave the land that was being occupied by others to Israel. Further, the conditions for Israel to remain in the land were set forth in the Palestinian or land covenant found in De 28-31. They were presented as blessing and curses. Blessings if they obeyed God as set forth in the Mosaic covenant and, curses, which would ultimately lead to their expulsion from the land as a disciplinary action if they did not obey. History has recorded three dispersions of this people from their land. Dispersion though did not mean that the Abrahamic covenant was voided because that same covenant promised that God would in due time bring them back from their dispersion from all the nations of the world. This dispersion took place in AD 70 and lasted until the Zionist movement in the late 1800’s that led to the modern state of Israel in AD 1948. This is the beginning of the fulfillment of the promises of the Palestinian covenant found following that will be complete when Jesus returns in glory.

And this is nothing but pure dispensationalist/zionist propaganda, nothing more. You are totally unable to prove any of your claims regarding Zionism or the modern state of Israel. I know, because I have been there, done that. I know the end result. You are simply making claims. They are unfounded. And though at one time I believed these claims myself, and did so for 30+ years, after actually investigating their foundations, I found the supposed f"oundations" to be totally lacking in any validlity.

But this is not what this thread is about.
We are not talking about the validity of Dispensatoinalism.




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