A Scientific Approach to Demonology

[Francis Drake]

Does this uber skeptic expect a demon to perform for her in a lab, thus validating the very religious belief a demon is opposed to? Maybe we should examine the qualifications to give skeptical remarks instead. Perhaps skepticism itself should finally join in on it's own interrogation.

Two of the most subtle "doctrines of demons" are
1). That demons don't actually exist.
(but if they did)-
2). That Christians can't have demons in them.

Both these doctrines are excellent cloaks to hide behind.

 

[Dave-W]

Books flying across a room (horizontal motion) is vaguely qualitatively similar to the Assumptions of Enoch & Mary (vertical motion) -- Elijah was taken up in a fiery tornado like vortex, and Christ's Ascension was under His own active power, not being passively acted upon as with the others -- consistent with some sort of supra-natural similarity (demons are fallen angels) ???

Interesting. I disagree with almost every point made here. That does not often happen. I think the only thing I can agree with is this:

"Elijah was taken up in a fiery tornado like vortex,"

 

[Dave-W]

If demons cannot repent, then angels cannot sin? If demons cannot "un-fall", then angels cannot "fall" ?

that assumes that demons are fallen angels.

 

[Francis Drake]

Books flying across a room (horizontal motion) is vaguely qualitatively similar to the Assumptions of Enoch & Mary (vertical motion) -- Elijah was taken up in a fiery tornado like vortex, and Christ's Ascension was under His own active power, not being passively acted upon as with the others -- consistent with some sort of supra-natural similarity (demons are fallen angels) ???

The assumption of Mary is just mythology, but I can't make sense out of the rest anyway.

 

[Dave-W]

And for all that time, skeptical psychologists interviewing him would have noticed nothing, overlooking the supra-natural in the process

On that we agree. Secular science and psychology have no way of comprehending or even detecting the supernatural.

 

[Francis Drake]

On that we agree. Secular science and psychology have no way of comprehending or even detecting the supernatural.

I believe they are perfectly able to detect demons, they just refuse to comprehend the idea.
"Mind scientists" are happy to give all sorts of Latin or Greek names when people hear voices inside their heads, but if anyone should dare suggest that these voices actually come from living entities, these scientists would go berserk. (As indeed do many Christians on this forum.)

The evidence is right in front of them, but these so called objective scientists absolutely remain in denial over the most obvious answer.

Admitting that demons exist, is also admitting that God might exist!

 

[Dave-W]

However if you consider that the "mind scientists" are happy to give all sorts of Latin or Greek names when people hear voices inside their heads, but if anyone should dare suggest that these voices actually come from living entities, these scientists would go berserk. (As indeed do many Christians on this forum.)

That is true.

However, there are real organic (non spiritual) mental disorders and diseases that produce hallucinations, including auditory hallucinations, which can be "voices." Medical science has no way to differentiate between hallucinations and real spirit voices.

And If I read Paul right, they never will. Things of the spirit can only be discerned spiritually.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Interesting. I disagree with almost every point made here. That does not often happen. I think the only thing I can agree with is this:

"Elijah was taken up in a fiery tornado like vortex,"

You're disagreeing with your own article?

It describes "books flying across the room"

Somehow applying "telekinetic" forces to hover books across a room is qualitatively similar to "telekinetic" forces lifting Enoch, Mary, and possibly Elijah & Christ heavenward

 

[Dave-W]

You're disagreeing with your own article?
It describes "books flying across the room"

I do not disagree with books flying. I have never seen that; but have talked to people who have, including the late Rev Basham.

On that point i disagreed that (a) Enoch was taken up vertically. It said he walked with God and was not. Sounds horizontal to me.
And (b) that Mary was translated. There is NOTHING in scripture to support that idea at all.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I do not disagree with books flying. I have never seen that; but have talked to people who have, including the late Rev Basham.

On that point i disagreed that (a) Enoch was taken up vertically. It said he walked with God and was not. Sounds horizontal to me.
And (b) that Mary was translated. There is NOTHING in scripture to support that idea at all.

Scripture supports that Mary's assumption would be possible, a la Enoch, whom God "took" [to heaven?]

 

[Dave-W]

Scripture supports that Mary's assumption would be possible, a la Enoch, whom God "took" [to heaven?]

Only insofar as NOT saying it did not happen.

Scripture rarely records stuff that is regular day to day occurrences. Did scripture say that Joseph died before or during our Lord's earthly ministry? no. Maybe he is still alive. The "assumption" of Mary is equally speculative, or perhaps more so since such an unusual occurrence would most likely have been recorded IN SCRIPTURE.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Only insofar as NOT saying it did not happen.

Scripture rarely records stuff that is regular day to day occurrences. Did scripture say that Joseph died before or during our Lord's earthly ministry? no. Maybe he is still alive. The "assumption" of Mary is equally speculative, or perhaps more so since such an unusual occurrence would most likely have been recorded IN SCRIPTURE.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Diocletian destroyed every Church, killed every pastor, and burned every extant Bible

all that survived were thousands of separate scraps which emperor Constantine had to put together again

the Catholic claim that the memory of the event survived through Oral tradition is plausible

 

[Francis Drake]

That is true.

However, there are real organic (non spiritual) mental disorders and diseases that produce hallucinations, including auditory hallucinations, which can be "voices." Medical science has no way to differentiate between hallucinations and real spirit voices.

And If I read Paul right, they never will. Things of the spirit can only be discerned spiritually.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Throughout the gospels, the ordinary men and women on the street understood when someone had a demon, they declared it was so, and brought them to Jesus. Not once did Jesus say it was a medical or a mental disorder, he just cast the demons out and the person was made whole.

 

[Erik Nelson]

How Demons Deceive Us

excellent article

 

[DennisTate]

I was sent this interesting article today:
Contra Dr. Novella, who swallows materialist dogma by the gulp, there is no scientific basis for categorically denying the existence of demons. Such denial is merely ideological prejudice, not reason or science or "skepticism" of any respectable sort.
Demons and Multiverses | Evolution News
Is the existence of demons intellectually credible?

There are some quotations on String Theory in this blog that may be useful in understanding this topic.

www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

"It was not until 1920 that the idea of linking electromagnetism and
gravity resurfaced. At that time a new theory of gravitation had been proposed by Albert Einstein (1879-1955), called the general theory of relativity. It was a replacement of Newton's theory, which had stood unchallenged since 1687. Inspired by Einstein's work, a young German mathematician named Theodore Kaluza was seized by a curious idea. The theory of relativity links space an time together to form a four-dimensional space-time continuum. What would happen, mused Kaluza, if general relativity were formulated in five rather than four dimensions? This is what Kaluza did, and to everyone's astonishment it was discovered that five-dimensional gravity obeys the same laws as
four-dimensional gravity as well as Maxwell's laws for the electromagnetic field. In other words, gravitation and electromagnetism are automatically unified in five dimensions, where electromagnetism is merely a component of gravity!"

The only drawback of the theory concerns the extra dimension. Why
don't we see it? An ingenious answer was provided by Oskar Klein. A
hosepipe viewed from afar looks like a wiggly line, i.e. one- dimensional.
However, on closer inspection it can be seen as a narrow tube. It is, in fact,
two-dimensional, and what was taken to be a point on the line is actually a
little circle going around the tube. In the same way, reasoned Klein, what we normally regard as a point in three dimensional space could in reality be a little circle going around a fourth space dimension. Thus Kaluza's extra
dimension might well exist, but be impossible to detect because it is closed
(circular) and rolled up to a very small circumference. In spite of
these bizarre overtones, it seems probable that in future a "theory of everything" will make use of the idea of unseen higher dimensions."
....

"Although nature manifests four distinct forces, physicists believe that
each may be part of a smaller number of more primitive forces. At high energy, the electromagnetic and weak forces appear to merge into a single "electroweak" force. Some "grand unified theories" suggest that a further amalgamation takes place between the electroweak and strong forces at as yet unattained energies. The most ambitious unification schemes envisage an amalgamation of all four forces into a single "superforce" at ultra-high levels of energy."...

"The real burden in the next three centuries will not be the development of fancy mathematics, but the experimental testing of these ambitious theories. All current thinking about total unification assumes that the effects of linking all the forces and particles together will only become manifest at energies that are some trillion times greater than those currently attainable in particle accelerators. Probably we shall never reach such energies directly" ( A Theory of Everything" Volume 21 of "The World of Science)

 

[Francis Drake]

There are some quotations on String Theory in this blog that may be useful in understanding this topic.

www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

Don't really need string theory to cast demons out!