A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[Felix.Gov]

BTW:
It seems many people think that the Calvinistic view of God reduces man to a robot or puppet. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I was DEAD in my trespasses and sins, DEAD. Dead to the truth, only a slave to sin in my flesh. God making me alive is only just that. I once was blind, but now I see. I am not a robot, and I am not a puppet, I am simply alive to truth and thankful for it.

I'd like to interact with you on this if you're willing. I think Calvinism to its logical conclusion does make humans robots and here's why. If God predetermines all things that come to pass (which includes the actions of humans) it seems to me that the conclusion is unavoidable. You can't do anything other than what God preordained for you to do can you ?

 

[Late Apex]

Well brother that sounds a little close minded to me. I don't think that's a healthy attitude. Basically you're saying you know it all already and you won't even consider another perspective. You're not even willing to consult the koine Greek of the text in Ephesians? It's like you don't even want to hear the reasons of the other side. I've been a Christian long enough to know there are things that I may misunderstand or get wrong. I hold firm to my views but always willing to consider another if the justification for another view seems more reasonable to me. That's why I stopped believing Calvinism. Anyway I know you don't want to talk about that verse so we can discuss something else if you'd like. Here's a quote for all to think about
"The mark of an educated man is the ability to entertain a thought without embracing it"

I used to be an Arminian almost 40 years ago.
I consider many perspectives, but I cannot consider anything different than what I see so clearly spoken of in God's word. In my estimation, the whole bible is clear to me on this issue. You can certainly quote scripture and tell me what you think it says, and I will reply accordingly. In regards to your quote: "The mark of an educated man is the ability to entertain a thought without embracing it." You can only take this so far. For example, I will NOT "entertain" the thought of God not existing. That is how STRONGLY I believe that Faith is a gift from God.
Can I entertain thoughts about naked women without embracing it? Knowing me, probably not. I guard my mind. I believe that is Biblical.
Regardless, please go ahead and post scripture. One verse at a time would be preferable.

 

[Late Apex]

I'd like to interact with you on this if you're willing. I think Calvinism to its logical conclusion does make humans robots and here's why. If God predetermines all things that come to pass (which includes the actions of humans) it seems to me that the conclusion is unavoidable. You can't do anything other than what God preordained for you to do can you ?

God knows the end from the beginning. This is clear as day.
How could God NOT know the end from the beginning? He is GOD!
Isaiah 46:
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
[11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Now, just because GOD knows this, please show me how this truth has interfered with my life, from day to day. I don't know what is going to happen 5 seconds from now, yet I have faith that God does and I trust Him. Man has a tendancy to think that God is like man.

Isaiah 55:
[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Remember, we are talking about a God that spoke you into existence. That's a BIG God!

In God's mind the whole thing was settled before the foundation of the world. This does not preclude it actually happening. Look at this verse:

Acts 2:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Here Jesus Christ was delivered at the appointed time, for the appointed reason YET, those that crucified Him are still guilty. As a mortal man, I cannot fully understand that. However, I believe it.

 

[sdowney717]

I used to be an Arminian almost 40 years ago.
I consider many perspectives, but I cannot consider anything different than what I see so clearly spoken of in God's word. In my estimation, the whole bible is clear to me on this issue. You can certainly quote scripture and tell me what you think it says, and I will reply accordingly. In regards to your quote: "The mark of an educated man is the ability to entertain a thought without embracing it." You can only take this so far. For example, I will NOT "entertain" the thought of God not existing. That is how STRONGLY I believe that Faith is a gift from God.
Can I entertain thoughts about naked women without embracing it? Knowing me, probably not. I guard my mind. I believe that is Biblical.
Regardless, please go ahead an post scripture. One verse at a time would be preferable.

1 Peter 1:20-22New King James Version (NKJV)
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

The Enduring Word
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,


Faith in Christ is most certainly God's gift, since Christ said no one can come to Christ unless God enables them. And we believe by faith.
Peter here tells we obey the truth through the Spirit, which would be God's power at work on the inside of you.

And Peter says "who through Him believe in God", so also because of the faith of Christ, really because of Christ we believe, not the other way round. Christ was manifested specifically for us who became Christians, for those whom God foreknew, not for the world of unbelievers. Christ only saves those who believe.

Faith is a gift and it has become also our faith.

 

[Felix.Gov]

God knows the end from the beginning. This is clear as day.
How could God NOT know the end from the beginning? He is GOD!
Isaiah 46:
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
[11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Now, just because GOD knows this, please show me how this truth has interfered with my life, from day to day. I don't know what is going to happen 5 seconds from now, yet I have faith that God does and I trust Him. Man has a tendancy to think that God is like him.

Isaiah 55:
[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Remember, we are talking about a God that spoke you into existence. That's a BIG God!

In God's mind the whole thing was settled before the foundation of the world. This does not preclude it actually happening. Look at this verse:

Acts 2:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Here Jesus Christ was delivered at the appointed time, for the appointed reason YET, those that crucified Him are still guilty. As a mortal man, I cannot fully understand that. However, I believe it.

I wholeheartedly agree that God knows all things and determines some things such as the crucifixtion, but from what I understand to be the Calvinist perspective God determines ALL things. If He does then I still would like an answer to my question. If all things are determined which would include your actions, can you do anything other than what you've been preordained to do ? If so how are you not a robot.

 

[Felix.Gov]

1 Peter 1:20-22New King James Version (NKJV)
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

The Enduring Word
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,


Faith in Christ is most certainly God's gift, since Christ said no one can come to Christ unless God enables them. And we believe by faith.
Peter here tells we obey the truth through the Spirit, which would be God's power at work on the inside of you.

And Peter says "who through Him believe in God", so also because of the faith of Christ, really because of Christ we believe, not the other way round. Christ was manifested specifically for us who became Christians, for those whom God foreknew, not for the world of unbelievers. Christ only saves those who believe.

Faith is a gift and it has become also our faith.

Brother I jut don't see how you can justify your confidence in this doctrine with such vague texts of scripture. It isn't at all obvious that these texts teach or imply that "God gives faith as a gift". That's what you want it to say. You may extrapolate that if you'd like but making doctrine out of unclear passages is not good hermeneutics brother.

 

[Late Apex]

I wholeheartedly agree that God knows all things and determines some things such as the crucifixtion, but from what I understand to be the Calvinist perspective God determines ALL things. If He does then I still would like an answer to my question. If all things are determined which would include your actions, can you do anything other than what you've been preordained to do ? If so how are you not a robot.

Let me try to answer your question by asking you a question. Could you have been born by any other parents other than the ones you have? No.
Could you have been taller than the height that you currently are? No.
Do you feel like a robot? No.

John 9:
[1] And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
[2] And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
[3] Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

In the above verse, this blind man from birth was born that way for a purpose, "that the works of God should be made manifest in him." We are all created for a purpose and that purpose is to glorify God. All I know is that I was once dead in sin and now I am alive. If I am a robot, so be it. I am God's robot. I am a robot that is a child of the KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS, the creator of heaven and earth who upholds ALL things by the word of His power. What could be better than that?

I DO choose God. Why? Because He chose me first.
I DO have faith in God. Why? Because He gave me faith.
I DO love God. Why? Because He loved me first.
I am alive? Why? Because God quickened me.
I want to follow God. Why? Because God makes me willing.

 

[Felix.Gov]

Let me try to answer your question by asking you a question. Could you have been born by any other parents other than the ones you have? No.
Could you have been taller than the height that you currently are? No.
Do you feel like a robot? No.

John 9:
[1] And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
[2] And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
[3] Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

In the above verse, this blind man from birth was born that way for a purpose, "that the works of God should be made manifest in him." We are all created for a purpose and that purpose is to glorify God. All I know is that I was once dead in sin and now I am alive. If I am a robot, so be it. I am God's robot. I am a robot that is a child of the KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS, the creator of heaven and earth who upholds ALL things by the word of His power. What could be better than that?

I DO choose God. Why? Because He chose me first.
I DO have faith in God. Why? Because He gave me faith.
I DO love God. Why? Because He loved me first.
I am alive? Why? Because God quickened me.
I want to follow God. Why? Because God makes me willing.

Brother, you're introducing things we're not even talking about. Being a sinner saved by grace or being a child of God or even being created for a purpose(I agree we all have a purpose btw) but those haven't anything to do with my question. It seems to me you're dancing around the question. I'm asking you a pointed question about a specific thing. Asking me a question and then answering it is not an answer to my question lol. So again I ask, if God preordained everything you're going to do then how is that different from a pre programmed robot ? Even if you admit to being "Gods robot" I'd still like you to answer the question. Thank you.

 

[GillDouglas]

Brother, you're introducing things we're not even talking about. Being a sinner saved by grace or being a child of God or even being created for a purpose(I agree we all have a purpose btw) but those haven't anything to do with my question. It seems to me you're dancing around the question. I'm asking you a pointed question about a specific thing. Asking me a question and then answering it is not an answer to my question lol. So again I ask, if God preordained everything you're going to do then how is that different from a pre programmed robot ? Even if you admit to being "Gods robot" I'd still like you to answer the question. Thank you.

God is the Author, and He also supplies the means to reach the end times. We all have our own little story (purpose) within the grand Story. Out of our free will choices, we act upon the means He provides. In making those decisions, along with God's providential influence upon particular events/situations, we move our story forward within the grand Story.

There is no chance. There are no coincidences. ALL things happen for a reason, whether morally 'good' or 'bad' from our point of view, and will in one way or another further the Kingdom of God. Even the choices of the unbeliever are used in such a manner.

Robots follow procedural logic, scripted to perform a specific task(s). If we're robots, where are my set of instructions on making the right (only) choice?

 

[AFrazier]

You do need an education, whether from me or someone else skilled in the scriptures, and I rightly rebuke you for your multitude of errors.

And scripturally we are to correct people at most 2 or 3 times and then have nothing more to do with them, so your going on ignore.

What do you know about what I know, what I need to learn, or what true point of view I hold to? You're certainly a presumptuous one. I haven't expressed the fullness of the doctrine I hold to. I have merely expressed that I do not agree with the Calvinist doctrine. And begging your pardon, but a lot of people disagree with it.

Who are you to tell me I need an education by someone skilled in the scriptures, when you don't know anything about the doctrine I adhere to? Who are you to tell me I'm in error when I haven't shared my doctrine? Who are you to presume to tell me what I believe? Who are you to accuse me of "wresting the scriptures"?

By all means, put me on ignore. Don't speak to me again until you learn some humility. Your comments are not welcomed.

 

[sdowney717]

Brother I jut don't see how you can justify your confidence in this doctrine with such vague texts of scripture. It isn't at all obvious that these texts teach or imply that "God gives faith as a gift". That's what you want it to say. You may extrapolate that if you'd like but making doctrine out of unclear passages is not good hermeneutics brother.

Sure it is and Romans 12:3 refutes your opinion.

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

God gave to each believer in His body the church their measure of faith, then that measure large or small is God's gift. Each one has faith in Christ to save them as a gift from God to those whom He has foreknown whom He then predestined to all be glorified together with Christ.

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

 

[sdowney717]

Scripture says those who will be with Christ are CALLED, CHOSEN by Him and because of that are faithful.

Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

 

[EmSw]

Scripture says those who will be with Christ are CALLED, CHOSEN by Him and because of that are faithful.

Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

That's not what it says. Where do you read 'because of that'?

 

[GillDouglas]

That's not what it says. Where do you read 'because of that'?

Not only are spiritual gifts a work of God's free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts. This means that every possible ground of boasting is taken away. Faith is from God and without God we cannot believe as we ought to believe.

Hebrews 12:2 - "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

Romans 12:3 - "For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned."

1 Timothy 1:13-14 - "though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Philippians 1:29 - "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake"

Mark 9:24 - 'Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”'

Luke 17:5 - 'The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”'

 

[Felix.Gov]

God is the Author, and He also supplies the means to reach the end times. We all have our own little story (purpose) within the grand Story. Out of our free will choices, we act upon the means He provides. In making those decisions, along with God's providential influence upon particular events/situations, we move our story forward within the grand Story.

There is no chance. There are no coincidences. ALL things happen for a reason, whether morally 'good' or 'bad' from our point of view, and will in one way or another further the Kingdom of God. Even the choices of the unbeliever are used in such a manner.

Robots follow procedural logic, scripted to perform a specific task(s). If we're robots, where are my set of instructions on making the right (only) choice?

"Out of our free will choices " You have no free will choices because if God determined your choices before hand (because He causes ALL things to occur) then you're just acting out what you were predestined to do and your free will is an illusion. And robots dont need instructions, free moral agents need instruction. Robots follow programming, not by choice but by design. How do you have free will if God determines all things? ALL things.

 

[GillDouglas]

"Out of our free will choices " You have no free will choices because if God determined your choices before hand (because He causes ALL things to occur) then you're just acting out what you were predestined to do and your free will is an illusion. And robots dont need instructions, free moral agents need instruction. Robots follow programming, not by choice but by design. How do you have free will if God determines all things? ALL things.

You still have to make a choice. You still have to act upon the means that God provides. Yes, the story is written and there is only one right decision but only God knows what that is.

Robots do not act without instructions, free moral agents must act (or choose not to) without instructions.

 

[Late Apex]

Brother, you're introducing things we're not even talking about. Being a sinner saved by grace or being a child of God or even being created for a purpose(I agree we all have a purpose btw) but those haven't anything to do with my question. It seems to me you're dancing around the question. I'm asking you a pointed question about a specific thing. Asking me a question and then answering it is not an answer to my question lol. So again I ask, if God preordained everything you're going to do then how is that different from a pre programmed robot ? Even if you admit to being "Gods robot" I'd still like you to answer the question. Thank you.

I am sorry I have not been able to write in such a way for you to understand. I will try again.
YES, God knows everything I was ever going to do before I was even born. So what? Is there something wrong with that? I am GLAD He is such a big God. He has the kings heart in his hand and turns it any way HE chooses. Again, in your mind you conclude I'm a robot. So be it.
In God's mind I am His child. So be it.
I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with God knowing the end from the beginning. In fact, it gives me great comfort. No surprises for God, no unexpected dilemma He did not see coming. No wringing of His hands trying to figure out what to do next. Thankfully and from all eternity, God is simply GOD and I am thankful for it!

Proverbs 21:
[1] The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Remember, as I said in another post, whatever God knows (and He knows it ALL from beginning to end) DOES NOT interfere with what I want to do. WHY? Because I have NO IDEA what is going to happen 5 seconds from now. Can I fully understand that? No. Do I believe that? Yes.

 

[Late Apex]

"Out of our free will choices " You have no free will choices because if God determined your choices before hand (because He causes ALL things to occur) then you're just acting out what you were predestined to do and your free will is an illusion. And robots dont need instructions, free moral agents need instruction. Robots follow programming, not by choice but by design. How do you have free will if God determines all things? ALL things.

You are thinking like man.
Our mind is limited. I cannot fully grasp the mind and power of God. It's a reality that our mind cannot fully grasp. How can God know everything and I have the freedom to choose what I want?

Isaiah 55:
[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The PERFECT example in scripture is the delivering of Jesus Christ to suffer on the cross YET, those that crucified Him are guilty. In the following scenario, those that crucified Jesus were robots (in your estimation), yet God JUSTLY still finds them guilty. It's a fact. Can I understand fully? No. Why? because I am not God, I am a created and sinful man with limitations in understanding.

Acts 2:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[Felix.Gov]

You still have to make a choice. You still have to act upon the means that God provides. Yes, the story is written and there is only one right decision but only God knows what that is.

Robots do not act without instructions, free moral agents must act (or choose not to) without instructions.

Brother it seems like we're going round and round on this. You're not the one making a choice if God already made the choice for you. That's my point. Anyway, would you be willing to talk this over on google hang outs or pal talk or some way to talk live ?

 

[Felix.Gov]

You are thinking like man.
Our mind is limited. I cannot fully grasp the mind and power of God. It's a reality that our mind cannot fully grasp. How can God know everything and I have the freedom to choose what I want?

Isaiah 55:
[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The PERFECT example in scripture is the delivering of Jesus Christ to suffer on the cross YET, those that crucified Him are guilty. In the following scenario, those that crucified Jesus were robots (in your estimation), yet God JUSTLY still finds them guilty. It's a fact. Can I understand fully? No. Why? because I am not God, I am a created and sinful man with limitations in understanding.

Acts 2:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

It seems like you're chalking it up to mystery on this. It's an obvious contradiction to say that 1. God predetermined all my choices and 2. I'm free to make all my choices.

This isn't about God knowing all things. I've already agreed to that. The answer I'm looking for is the solution to the contradiction between Gods will and yours. I'd also like to ask if you'd be willing to talk this over on google hang outs or live because I think we could have a better conversation live than over text.