A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[FreeGrace2]

You should read the five tenets of Arminianism. They are the primary points that separate it from Calvinism.

I have read them.

You just declared at least three right here. No insult intended, but you are an Arminianist.

I believe that Christ died for everyone, but that does not make me a Calvinist.

As am I. I do not agree with Calvinist doctrines of arbitrary election, total depravity (as it is understood in Reformed Theology), absolute predestination and ordination, limited grace, etc.

I very strongly reject the claim that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I used to be an Arminian. The problem I had with it was my supposed "choice." No matter how I sliced it, I had room to "boast." After all, I made the choice for Christ when others did not, so in some way, that made me better than someone else when in fact, I am no better than anyone.

The same kind of problem exists for Calvinists as seen in their idea that God chose to save them apart from any condition (unconditional election).

To me, Calvinism gives God more glory and takes away ANY boasting I may have regarding my salvation.

Not really. While the claim is that God chose apart from any condition, that is unbiblical. God chooses to save those who believe, per 1 Cor 1:21.

Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes, we're saved through faith. iow, we MUST believe before God will save us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Late Apex said: ↑
No, because it's a gift from God.

I'm asking if it wasn't a gift from God would It be meritorious ? And I if so why ?

Faith is a noun. It refers to what has been believed. It is what has been believed that is the gift.

But, the verb "believe" is not a gift that God gives anyone. One believes from the heart, as Rom 10:9 says. We don't believe from God, as the Calvinist believes.

If believing were a gift from God, the Bible would say it, and that would mean that God chooses who will believe. But the Bible doesn't say that either.

 

[Felix.Gov]

Late Apex said: ↑
No, because it's a gift from God.

Faith is a noun. It refers to what has been believed. It is what has been believed that is the gift.

But, the verb "believe" is not a gift that God gives anyone. One believes from the heart, as Rom 10:9 says. We don't believe from God, as the Calvinist believes.

If believing were a gift from God, the Bible would say it, and that would mean that God chooses who will believe. But the Bible doesn't say that either.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying brother. I think we're on the same page. I'm just trying to get our reformed brother to spell it out for us.

 

[GillDouglas]

I think it's a far cry to go from sin to totally depraved. Adam too, had the propensity to sin yet when God created everything He said it was very good. There was no change in Adam from his creation to his sin. This creates a problem for Reformed theology as have to admit that Adam was totally depraved when God said it was very good.

Adam had the potential to sin because of his free will. Adam also had the ability commune and live with God. This is not the same as the idea of Total Depravity which is that we are born into a state where we are at war with the holiness of God, incapable of doing any holy works, total disobedient and bent on following our evil/selfish hearts. Because of that state we are unable to commune with God or be in His presence, and we are incapable of doing anything that would take us out of that state.

This brings us to the complete reliance on God to regenerate our heart to be inclined to follow Him rather than ourselves. The righteousness of Christ is imputed on us and we are made able to commune with Him, and inevitably be in His presence.

 

[AFrazier]

I used to be an Arminian. The problem I had with it was my supposed "choice." No matter how I sliced it, I had room to "boast." After all, I made the choice for Christ when others did not, so in some way, that made me better than someone else when in fact, I am no better than anyone. To me, Calvinism gives God more glory and takes away ANY boasting I may have regarding my salvation.

Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You can't boast about choosing to accept a gift. I never boasted about gifts received at Christmas. I might have bragged about what I got from others, but never boasted about the presents I got for myself. But we all brag about the salvation we've been given. And if we don't, we should. Because that does give glory to God.

 

[AFrazier]

I have read them.


I believe that Christ died for everyone, but that does not make me a Calvinist.


I very strongly reject the claim that salvation can be lost.

Calvin didn't teach that Christ died for everyone. He died for the elect. I'm not accusing you of being a Calvinist.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You can't boast about choosing to accept a gift. I never boasted about gifts received at Christmas. I might have bragged about what I got from others, but never boasted about the presents I got for myself. But we all brag about the salvation we've been given. And if we don't, we should. Because that does give glory to God.

Good point! Also, one who has been saved from drowning by a life guard would never brag about how they saved themselves by holding on to the life guard. They'd be laughed right out of town.

Instead, they would have praised the guy who saved them from drowning. Just as all believers should do regarding their salvation by Christ. Praise Him.

We have nothing to brag about. We didn't earn it, nor do we deserve it. That is grace, all the way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Calvin didn't teach that Christ died for everyone. He died for the elect. I'm not accusing you of being a Calvinist.

What Scripture did use to defend his position? Thanks.

 

[AFrazier]

What Scripture did use to defend his position? Thanks.

I'm heading to work and don't have time to look them up, but there are quite a few, though I don't believe his interpretation is correct relative to the broader collection of scriptural facts. Just ask the OP. He sounds like a hardcore Calvinist. I'm sure he can give you bucket-loads of scripture to demonstrate the Calvinist point of view.

 

[sdowney717]

I'm heading to work and don't have time to look them up, but there are quite a few, though I don't believe his interpretation is correct relative to the broader collection of scriptural facts. Just ask the OP. He sounds like a hardcore Calvinist. I'm sure he can give you bucket-loads of scripture to demonstrate the Calvinist point of view.

Bucket loads of scriptures??
You are showing a wresting of the scriptures attitude there...
It does not take bucket loads, it just takes some since all scripture is God inspired.
Your comment shows you think God is conflicted if a bucket load of scriptures can show calvinist doctrine as true, and another bucket of scripture can show there is no predestination, no election, just smarter people who learn better and a random chance of believing as true.

2 Peter 3:15-17King James Version (KJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

For example the wresting of this particular scripture...
Romans 8:30 King James Version (KJV)
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


From you POV, this must include all persons God has predestined, since God favored no one over another for salvation. Which is a pure wresting of the truth.
For if God predestined all to be called, then all were predestined to be justified, then glorified, so you must believe in a universal salvation of all people where all are saved and an eternal hell can not exist..
And Romans 8:30 is not just for a few special believers, if you believe that, then another wresting of the scripture, because the prior few verses clarify that this is for all believers not just some...

Once people start 'wresting' scripture, then they must continue to wrest many more scriptures which of course fulfils the scripture itself about such persons as Peter so wrote. The end of those who wrest and destroy the God inspired meaning of scripture is there own destruction which they bring down upon themselves.

 

[Late Apex]

I think it's a far cry to go from sin to totally depraved. Adam too, had the propensity to sin yet when God created everything He said it was very good. There was no change in Adam from his creation to his sin. This creates a problem for Reformed theology as have to admit that Adam was totally depraved when God said it was very good.

Sure, Adam WAS very good, until he sinned. Remember, God does not grade on a curve. Proof of this is the fact that the ONLY way God could JUSTLY reconcile a people to Himself was to essentially give His own life on the cross. If sin was not such a big problem, why did God humble Himself, take the form of a man and give His own sinless perfect life as a sacrifice?

 

[Late Apex]

I'm asking if it wasn't a gift from God would It be meritorious ? And I if so why ?

Sorry, I can't answer that question because I believe faith IS a gift from God.

 

[Late Apex]

You can't boast about choosing to accept a gift. I never boasted about gifts received at Christmas. I might have bragged about what I got from others, but never boasted about the presents I got for myself. But we all brag about the salvation we've been given. And if we don't, we should. Because that does give glory to God.

I brag on God, the greatness of God, but not because God chose me instead of someone else. Why, because I am no better than anyone else and do not deserve the least of HIS mercies.

In my mind, it was not even a choice. God started me in the faith and He will finish it. God drew me to Himself. He deserves ALL the glory, even for MY supposed "choice."

 

[AFrazier]

Bucket loads of scriptures??
You are showing a wresting of the scriptures attitude there...
It does not take bucket loads, it just takes some since all scripture is God inspired.
Your comment shows you think God is conflicted if a bucket load of scriptures can show calvinist doctrine as true, and another bucket of scripture can show there is no predestination, no election, just smarter people who learn better and a random chance of believing as true.

From you POV, this must include all persons God has predestined, since God favored no one over another for salvation. Which is a pure wresting of the truth.
For if God predestined all to be called, then all were predestined to be justified, then glorified, so you must believe in a universal salvation of all people where all are saved and an eternal hell can not exist..
And Romans 8:30 is not just for a few special believers, if you believe that, then another wresting of the scripture, because the prior few verses clarify that this is for all believers not just some...

Once people start 'wresting' scripture, then they must continue to wrest many more scriptures which of course fulfils the scripture itself about such persons as Peter so wrote. The end of those who wrest and destroy the God inspired meaning of scripture is there own destruction which they bring down upon themselves.

With respect, I don't really need you to educate me on election versus foreknowledge or any of this other stuff you rambled. By the way you took my simple response to someone else, you are obviously looking for an argument. When I say that there are bucket-loads of scripture to support the Calvinist point of view, I only mean that it is a predominant mainstream point of view, and while I may disagree with their interpretation of the scriptures they use relative to other scriptures that become contradictory rather than harmonious through their point of view, I nevertheless recognize that their position is backed with scriptural arguments. And that is what the person I was answering was inquiring about.

So put your claws away. I really don't need an education from you. Thanks all the same.

 

[sdowney717]

With respect, I don't really need you to educate me on election versus foreknowledge or any of this other stuff you rambled. By the way you took my simple response to someone else, you are obviously looking for an argument. When I say that there are bucket-loads of scripture to support the Calvinist point of view, I only mean that it is a predominant mainstream point of view, and while I may disagree with their interpretation of the scriptures they use relative to other scriptures that become contradictory rather than harmonious through their point of view, I nevertheless recognize that their position is backed with scriptural arguments. And that is what the person I was answering was inquiring about.

So put your claws away. I really don't need an education from you. Thanks all the same.

You do need an education, whether from me or someone else skilled in the scriptures, and I rightly rebuke you for your multitude of errors.

And scripturally we are to correct people at most 2 or 3 times and then have nothing more to do with them, so your going on ignore.

 

[Felix.Gov]

Sorry, I can't answer that question because I believe faith IS a gift from God.

With all due respect brother, either you're not wanting to interact on that point or you're not understanding the question. I understand that you believe that faith is a gift from God. I'm asking if as most non calvinists assert that we exercise faith ourselves if that would be meritorious. I'm not asking you to believe it but why is that view erroneous in your estimation?

 

[Late Apex]

With all due respect brother, either you're not wanting to interact on that point or you're not understanding the question. I understand that you believe that faith is a gift from God. I'm asking if as most non calvinists assert that we exercise faith ourselves if that would be meritorious. I'm not asking you to believe it but why is that view erroneous in your estimation?

I do understand the question. However, I will not even consider Faith being ANYTHING other than the gift of God. Why? Because it is what I glean from the scriptures. If you were to ask me the question: "How would you live your life if there were no God?" I would not even consider pondering the question either, because God IS. In my estimation, from reading the Bible, Faith IS the gift of God and therefore (God willing) I will not even consider discussing any other possibility. Furthermore, even if Faith is to be exercised, God makes me both willing and to do of His good pleasure, so regardless, it's not of me, it's of God. In my mind, it's a non question.

 

[Late Apex]

BTW:
It seems many people think that the Calvinistic view of God reduces man to a robot or puppet. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I was DEAD in my trespasses and sins, DEAD. Dead to the truth, only a slave to sin in my flesh. God making me alive is only just that. I once was blind, but now I see. I am not a robot, and I am not a puppet, I am simply alive to truth and thankful for it.

 

[Felix.Gov]

I do understand the question. However, I will not even consider Faith being ANYTHING other than the gift of God. Why? Because it is what I glean from the scriptures. If you were to ask me the question: "How would you live your life if there were no God?" I would not even consider pondering the question either, because God IS. In my estimation, from reading the Bible, Faith IS the gift of God and therefore (God willing) I will not even consider discussing any other possibility. Furthermore, even if Faith is to be exercised, God makes me both willing and to do of His good pleasure, so regardless, it's not of me, it's of God. In my mind, it's a non question.

Well brother that sounds a little close minded to me. I don't think that's a healthy attitude. Basically you're saying you know it all already and you won't even consider another perspective. You're not even willing to consult the koine Greek of the text in Ephesians? It's like you don't even want to hear the reasons of the other side. I've been a Christian long enough to know there are things that I may misunderstand or get wrong. I hold firm to my views but always willing to consider another if the justification for another view seems more reasonable to me. That's why I stopped believing Calvinism. Anyway I know you don't want to talk about that verse so we can discuss something else if you'd like. Here's a quote for all to think about
"The mark of an educated man is the ability to entertain a thought without embracing it"