A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[GillDouglas]

Exactly what condition did the fall (Our forefather's disobedience toward God in eating of the forbidden fruit) bring mankind? The fall brought mankind into an inherent condition of sin and misery. That all of mankind, on that day, in losing communion with God had been made liable to the miseries of this life, subject to God's wrath, and cursed to death. No man is able to redeem himself, unable to maintain the law with each transgression in thought, word or deed. This is the depravity each of us is born into, totally unable to span the distance between God and man on our own.

Did God leave ALL of mankind to endure alone under the curse brought upon by Adam, to suffer and perish in an inescapable state of misery and sin? No. Out of His mere good pleasure He established a covenant of grace and at the point of creation elected some to everlasting life in order to deliver them out of the current condition and into salvation by way of a Redeemer. These elect, who belong to the Christ, are given to Him by the Father not because of any merit in them or choices made by them but by the sovereign grace and mercy of the Creator only. This is the unconditional election of Christ's people.

By what means are Christ's people made partakers of this salvation? By the effectual application of the redemption by the Holy Spirit, the righteousness purchased by Christ's sacrifice. In this application, we are convinced of our sin and misery and enlightened in our knowledge of Christ. We are persuaded and enabled then to embrace Jesus as it is freely offered to us in the gospel. This event at any given point in time occurs for some, also does not occur for others. This is the limited atonement in that Christ died for ALL of His people.

Can the application of Christ's redemption and His saving grace be denied? From birth all do resist, and the hard of heart persist until the appointed time where one is transformed by the Holy Spirit. Would the lifelong and stalwart Atheist suddenly change his tune of his own free will and, having all his life's work discounting the existence of God undone, choose such a path? Why would he not remain hard of heart, like so many others? Only the Spirit of God can affect this realm of men, that is the spiritual one, by making everyday events, including the reading and preaching of the Gospel, effectual to one's salvation. This personal experience, while unique in respect to the individual's circumstances surrounding the event, is for each an irresistible and irreversible change.

What benefit does a person gain by this life changing event? We must first remind the reader that the decrees of God are eternal according to His will. All that He has put into motion, the means and the end, will come to pass. Those called partake of justification, adoption and sanctification. Justification being the pardon of all sins and acceptance as righteous by way Christ's righteousness. Adoption being received into the number and rights of the sons of God. Sanctification being the continual renewal where we are enable more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness. This is the preservation of Christ's people, enabled to endure this life's challenges with guidance of our Helper, in order that way may glorify God.

 

[SkyWriting]

subject to God's wrath, and cursed to death.

Not exactly. The wages of Sin is death.

Death is what you are paid in exchange for sin.
Or, death is simply the result of sin.

God cannot change that sin will cause you to perish.
What He can do is though is pay the price for you.
Which He did.

 

[MDC]

Exactly what condition did the fall (Our forefather's disobedience toward God in eating of the forbidden fruit) bring mankind? The fall brought mankind into an inherent condition of sin and misery. That all of mankind, on that day, in losing communion with God had been made liable to the miseries of this life, subject to God's wrath, and cursed to death. No man is able to redeem himself, unable to maintain the law with each transgression in thought, word or deed. This is the depravity each of us is born into, totally unable to span the distance between God and man on our own.

Did God leave ALL of mankind to endure alone under the curse brought upon by Adam, to suffer and perish in an escapable state of misery and sin? No. Out of His mere good pleasure He established a covenant of grace and at the point of creation elected some to everlasting life in order to deliver them out of the current condition and into salvation by way of a Redeemer. These elect, who belong to the Christ, are given to Him by the Father not because of any merit in them or choices made by them but by the sovereign grace and mercy of the Creator only. This is the unconditional election of Christ's people.

By what means are Christ's people made partakers of this salvation? By the effectual application of the redemption by the Holy Spirit, the righteousness purchased by Christ's sacrifice. In this application, we are convinced of our sin and misery and enlightened in our knowledge of Christ. We are persuaded and enabled then to embrace Jesus as it is freely offered to us in the gospel. This event at any given point in time occurs for some, also does not occur for others. This is the limited atonement in that Christ died for ALL of His people.

Can the application of Christ's redemption and His saving grace be denied? From birth all do resist, and the hard of heart persist until the appointed time where one is transformed by the Holy Spirit. Would the lifelong and stalwart Atheist suddenly change his tune of his own free will, having all his life's work discounting the existence of God undone, choose such a path? Why would he not remain hard of heart, like so many others? Only the Spirit of God can affect this realm of men, that is the spiritual one, by making everyday events, including the reading and preaching of the Gospel, effectual to one's salvation. This personal experience, while unique in respect to the individual's circumstances surrounding the event, is for each an irresistible and irreversible change.

What benefit does a person gain by this life changing event? We must first remind the reader that the decrees of God are eternal according to His will. All that He has put into motion, the means and the end, will come to pass. Those called partake of justification, adoption and sanctification. Justification being the pardon of all sins and acceptance as righteous by way Christ's righteousness. Adoption being received into the number and rights of the sons of God. Sanctification being the continual renewal where we are enable more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness. This is the preservation of Christ's people, enabled to endure this life's challenges with guidance of our Helper, in order that way may glorify God.

What great truths! Very well said brother!!

 

[bling]

Exactly what condition did the fall (Our forefather's disobedience toward God in eating of the forbidden fruit) bring mankind? The fall brought mankind into an inherent condition of sin and misery. That all of mankind, on that day, in losing communion with God had been made liable to the miseries of this life, subject to God's wrath, and cursed to death. No man is able to redeem himself, unable to maintain the law with each transgression in thought, word or deed. This is the depravity each of us is born into, totally unable to span the distance between God and man on our own.

Did God leave ALL of mankind to endure alone under the curse brought upon by Adam, to suffer and perish in an escapable state of misery and sin? No. Out of His mere good pleasure He established a covenant of grace and at the point of creation elected some to everlasting life in order to deliver them out of the current condition and into salvation by way of a Redeemer. These elect, who belong to the Christ, are given to Him by the Father not because of any merit in them or choices made by them but by the sovereign grace and mercy of the Creator only. This is the unconditional election of Christ's people.

By what means are Christ's people made partakers of this salvation? By the effectual application of the redemption by the Holy Spirit, the righteousness purchased by Christ's sacrifice. In this application, we are convinced of our sin and misery and enlightened in our knowledge of Christ. We are persuaded and enabled then to embrace Jesus as it is freely offered to us in the gospel. This event at any given point in time occurs for some, also does not occur for others. This is the limited atonement in that Christ died for ALL of His people.

Can the application of Christ's redemption and His saving grace be denied? From birth all do resist, and the hard of heart persist until the appointed time where one is transformed by the Holy Spirit. Would the lifelong and stalwart Atheist suddenly change his tune of his own free will, having all his life's work discounting the existence of God undone, choose such a path? Why would he not remain hard of heart, like so many others? Only the Spirit of God can affect this realm of men, that is the spiritual one, by making everyday events, including the reading and preaching of the Gospel, effectual to one's salvation. This personal experience, while unique in respect to the individual's circumstances surrounding the event, is for each an irresistible and irreversible change.

What benefit does a person gain by this life changing event? We must first remind the reader that the decrees of God are eternal according to His will. All that He has put into motion, the means and the end, will come to pass. Those called partake of justification, adoption and sanctification. Justification being the pardon of all sins and acceptance as righteous by way Christ's righteousness. Adoption being received into the number and rights of the sons of God. Sanctification being the continual renewal where we are enable more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness. This is the preservation of Christ's people, enabled to endure this life's challenges with guidance of our Helper, in order that way may glorify God.

Where Adam and Eve part of this “elect” and if not why not and if so did they fall away?

Is death “bad” in and of itself, or would it have benefit in helping willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective?

You talk of God “electing” some and thus not electing others, how is this not by the definition of arbitrary; an arbitrary selection, since there is absolutely (according to your explanation)? It would not matter if it was “just according to His good will” since that could also be an arbitrary selection if it was God’s way of making a selection. For it not to be an arbitrary selection there has to be some deciding difference between the individuals being selected and not just some difference between the Being doing the selection.

You seem to suggest only the elect bring glory to God because of what God did for them, so why do the non-elect not bring glory to God by doing what God allowed them to do?

How does the elect bring glory to God different from a tree?

 

[GillDouglas]

@bling All things glorify God in their own way. Each has its purpose and place to fulfill a specific role in order to further God's Will. Adam and Eve certainly had a unique role, and I believe that once Christ fulfilled His purpose on earth, the first man and woman are able to return to God.

I do not believe that the adopted Sons and Daughters are anymore special than a tree, at least not me personally, but it is possible that God does not have that same opinion. There is no evidence of any point/basis on which God has decided that one should come to know Him, and another should not. It's not random, and it's certainly not merit based.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Exactly what condition did the fall (Our forefather's disobedience toward God in eating of the forbidden fruit) bring mankind? The fall brought mankind into an inherent condition of sin and misery. That all of mankind, on that day, in losing communion with God had been made liable to the miseries of this life, subject to God's wrath, and cursed to death. No man is able to redeem himself, unable to maintain the law with each transgression in thought, word or deed. This is the depravity each of us is born into, totally unable to span the distance between God and man on our own.

Agreed.

Did God leave ALL of mankind to endure alone under the curse brought upon by Adam, to suffer and perish in an inescapable state of misery and sin? No. Out of His mere good pleasure He established a covenant of grace and at the point of creation elected some to everlasting life in order to deliver them out of the current condition and into salvation by way of a Redeemer. These elect, who belong to the Christ, are given to Him by the Father not because of any merit in them or choices made by them but by the sovereign grace and mercy of the Creator only. This is the unconditional election of Christ's people.

There are no uses of the 3 Greek words translated "elect/election" (eklectos-adjective, eklegomai-verb, ekloge-noun) for being elected or chosen for salvation. The only verse that says anyone is "chosen for salvation" is found in 2 Thess 2:13, but the Greek word isn't even related to any of the 3 just noted.

It is 'haireomai', and simply points to the fact that God does the choosing of who He will save. And the Bible actually tells us directly who He chooses to save: believers.
1 Cor 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe

The issue of election is that those so elected have been elected or chosen for service.

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: " It is always (with one exception, Rom 9:11; see below) related to a community, and thus has close affinity with the Old Testament teachings upon the privileged position of Israel as the chosen, selected race (see under ELECT ). The objects of election in the New Testament are, in effect, the Israel of God, the new, regenerate race called to special privilege and special service."

There are at least 6 different categories of who has been elected as revealed in Scripture:
Categories of Divine Election
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless] 1 Peter 2:9

1. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16

6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

None of these categories were chosen for salvation, but for service to God.

So, election is not about being chosen for salvation, but being chosen for service to God, which even included Judas the betrayer. John 6:70

By what means are Christ's people made partakers of this salvation? By the effectual application of the redemption by the Holy Spirit, the righteousness purchased by Christ's sacrifice. In this application, we are convinced of our sin and misery and enlightened in our knowledge of Christ. We are persuaded and enabled then to embrace Jesus as it is freely offered to us in the gospel. This event at any given point in time occurs for some, also does not occur for others. This is the limited atonement in that Christ died for ALL of His people.

The problem here is that there are 3 very clear verses about who Christ died for:
2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Calvinists believe that everyone is born spiritually dead, which is the last part of v.14 "therefore all died". But for no good reason, Calvinists simply don't believe that He died for everyone.

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12
On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:1
The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6
You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

If Christ died for just the elect, then reformed theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.

Can the application of Christ's redemption and His saving grace be denied? From birth all do resist, and the hard of heart persist until the appointed time where one is transformed by the Holy Spirit. Would the lifelong and stalwart Atheist suddenly change his tune of his own free will and, having all his life's work discounting the existence of God undone, choose such a path? Why would he not remain hard of heart, like so many others? Only the Spirit of God can affect this realm of men, that is the spiritual one, by making everyday events, including the reading and preaching of the Gospel, effectual to one's salvation. This personal experience, while unique in respect to the individual's circumstances surrounding the event, is for each an irresistible and irreversible change.

There are no verses that show God being the cause of anyone coming to faith. This doctrine of "irresistible grace" is simply the way Calvinists must see how God operates in order to believe that Christ only died for the elect.

What benefit does a person gain by this life changing event? We must first remind the reader that the decrees of God are eternal according to His will. All that He has put into motion, the means and the end, will come to pass. Those called partake of justification, adoption and sanctification. Justification being the pardon of all sins and acceptance as righteous by way Christ's righteousness. Adoption being received into the number and rights of the sons of God. Sanctification being the continual renewal where we are enable more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness. This is the preservation of Christ's people, enabled to endure this life's challenges with guidance of our Helper, in order that way may glorify God.

I don't see anything here about either "perseverance of the saints" or "preservation of the saints". It seems Calvin's 5th point can be taken either way.

I am rock solid on eternal security, or OSAS, as some refer to it. But I don't believe that all saints will persevere in the faith because the Bible clearly says that not all will.

Jesus gave us an example of the second soil, who "believed for a while and in time of temptation fell away" in Luke 8:13. And Paul told Timothy that in "later times, some will abandon the faith". 1 Tim 4:1

And there are verses where believers were encouraged to remain true to the faith (Acts 11:23 and 14:22).

And, just to be clear, I am not Arminiain. Their doctrine of conditional security is imo heresy and greatly diminishes the work of Christ on the cross.

 

[bling]

@bling All things glorify God in their own way. Each has its purpose and place to fulfill a specific role in order to further God's Will. Adam and Eve certainly had a unique role, and I believe that once Christ fulfilled His purpose on earth, the first man and woman are able to return to God.

I do not believe that the adopted Sons and Daughters are anymore special than a tree, at least not me personally, but it is possible that God does not have that same opinion. There is no evidence of any point/basis on which God has decided that one should come to know Him, and another should not. It's not random, and it's certainly not merit based.

According to your thinking there can be no reason for God selecting one person over another person since there is no difference?

If there is no basis for God’s “selection” of one over the other person then it is random and arbitrary by definition.

Since “All things glorify God in their own way.” There is no real “objective” for humans in this life since we all automatically fulfill our “purpose”?

I agree with you reasoning in that if we are nothing more than glorified robots: we are not any better than a tree.

 

[GillDouglas]

Since “All things glorify God in their own way.” There is no real “objective” for humans in this life since we all automatically fulfill our “purpose”?

You misunderstand me. While God does provide the means to the end, each is to perform the role they've been given by acting on those means. Men act within the confines of God's will, but that does not make them robots.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You misunderstand me. While God does provide the means to the end, each is to perform the role they've been given by acting on those means. Men act within the confines of God's will, but that does not make them robots.

The second sentence contradicts the 3rd.

If God "gives the role men have been given", then men are no more than robots. Can't have it both ways.

 

[GillDouglas]

The second sentence contradicts the 3rd.

If God "gives the role men have been given", then men are no more than robots. Can't have it both ways.

Why not? Because you say so? A man with the gift of tinkering is not going to become an artist, not because he's a robot but because he chooses not to be. Where does his gift come from? Why is he a man? Maybe give God a little credit.

 

[sdowney717]

According to your thinking there can be no reason for God selecting one person over another person since there is no difference?

If there is no basis for God’s “selection” of one over the other person then it is random and arbitrary by definition.

Since “All things glorify God in their own way.” There is no real “objective” for humans in this life since we all automatically fulfill our “purpose”?

I agree with you reasoning in that if we are nothing more than glorified robots: we are not any better than a tree.

Some trees burn and some wont burn.
The Son quicken whom He will.
Jesus mentions His and the Father's own actions first in making us alive, then mentions our belief. In that those who believe HAVE eternal life, can you see the subtlety? They don't gain eternal life because they believe... It is more along that they have eternal life and so then believe. These are tightly linked together, having eternal life, made alive by God and Christ, believing in the Son. You can not really separate them. At one moment your dead, then the next moment alive in the Son, born again from above of God. There is no half life.

John 5
20 For the Father loveth the Son and showeth Him all things that He Himself doeth; and He will show Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son,

23 that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent Him.

24 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus here in v24, makes no mention of the person needing to say-speak-do any work to gain eternal life. Just be hearing Him speak and believing in Him (actually God the Father, that God sent Christ to save you) from the heart.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why not? Because you say so?

No, but because your statement is internally contradicted.

This is what you said: " each is to perform the role they've been given by acting on those means. Men act within the confines of God's will, but that does not make them robots."

The first part speaks about "the role they've been given". What does that actually mean? Is this role decreed, or are people free to reject the role they've been given? This is very important in order to really understand your views.

The second part says "men act within the confines of God's will". Sounds VERY robotic to me. How can your statement NOT be robotic?

If God gave the roles, and men act within the confines of God's will, then there is no alternative but that man simply acts according to what God has determined (caused).

A man with the gift of tinkering is not going to become an artist, not because he's a robot but because he chooses not to be.

I don't see any connection between "tinkering" and being an artist, and what you previously posted about men being given the role they will play because they act within the confines of God's will.

Where does his gift come from? Why is he a man? Maybe give God a little credit.

I always give God all the credit for all of His plan, but I'm trying to understand how your previous statement isn't contradicted.

 

[JoeP222w]

.

 

[TheSeabass]

Exactly what condition did the fall (Our forefather's disobedience toward God in eating of the forbidden fruit) bring mankind? The fall brought mankind into an inherent condition of sin and misery. That all of mankind, on that day, in losing communion with God had been made liable to the miseries of this life, subject to God's wrath, and cursed to death. No man is able to redeem himself, unable to maintain the law with each transgression in thought, word or deed. This is the depravity each of us is born into, totally unable to span the distance between God and man on our own.

Did God create Adam and Eve totally depraved?
Was Peter totally depraved when he sinned in denying Christ?

Did God leave ALL of mankind to endure alone under the curse brought upon by Adam, to suffer and perish in an inescapable state of misery and sin? No. Out of His mere good pleasure He established a covenant of grace and at the point of creation elected some to everlasting life in order to deliver them out of the current condition and into salvation by way of a Redeemer. These elect, who belong to the Christ, are given to Him by the Father not because of any merit in them or choices made by them but by the sovereign grace and mercy of the Creator only. This is the unconditional election of Christ's people.

By what means are Christ's people made partakers of this salvation? By the effectual application of the redemption by the Holy Spirit, the righteousness purchased by Christ's sacrifice. In this application, we are convinced of our sin and misery and enlightened in our knowledge of Christ. We are persuaded and enabled then to embrace Jesus as it is freely offered to us in the gospel. This event at any given point in time occurs for some, also does not occur for others. This is the limited atonement in that Christ died for ALL of His people.

What was the basis of God's choice in choosing some to be saved leaving others to be lost?

 

[bling]

You misunderstand me. While God does provide the means to the end, each is to perform the role they've been given by acting on those means. Men act within the confines of God's will, but that does not make them robots.

You were the one that said: “I do not believe that the adopted Sons and Daughters are anymore special than a tree” and a tree just does what a tree is programmed to do in the environment (created for it by God) . Animals seem to react predictively (instinctively) to controlled stimulation and do not have autonomous free will.

We might really like a loving pet cat or dog that really seems to love on us, but how does that compare to an illogical autonomous free will Godly type, totally unselfish, unconditional, thought-out Love?

If our “Love” for God is no more than a knee jerk reaction (instinctive: like your pet puppy’s “love” for you) then it would be of little “value” to God, but if we have of our own free will humbly accepted His Love (charity) for even selfish reasons and thus obtained a Godly type Love, to Love Him with, that would be a valuable Love (like God’s Love for us).

God is the epitome of Love, so He would be a totally unselfish Giver and not a taker and God does not “need” anything especially from us, but God does Love on all of us, because God is Love.

The greatest gift God could give us would be Godly type Love, since that is what God himself is and would make us like God Himself.

Everything revolves around the objective:

The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.


So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes, since that force compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

 

[GillDouglas]

Did God create Adam and Eve totally depraved?
Was Peter totally depraved when he sinned in denying Christ?



What was the basis of God's choice in choosing some to be saved leaving others to be lost?

No. Yes. Mercy and Wrath.

 

[FreeGrace2]

TheSeabass said: ↑
What was the basis of God's choice in choosing some to be saved leaving others to be lost?

Mercy and Wrath.

Are God's mercy and wrath exercised randomly? That is, unplanned or unpremeditated?

Also, there has been no comments or reply to my post #6.

Regarding the 6 categories of election, what say you?

 

[TheSeabass]

No. Yes. Mercy and Wrath.

Adam and Eve were not created totally depraved yet they were still capable of sinning.
Peter was NOT totally depraved simply because he sinned.
Total depravity is not needed for one to be a sinner.
Totally depravity therefore is not taught in the bible as the reason men are sinners, men are sinners for they choose to sin. Men are not passively born sinners/depraved.


What is the basis of God's mercy and wrath whereby God chooses some to be saved over others?

 

[GillDouglas]

Here is the overall point I am driving at. We make choices of our own free will, yet while they are our own, they are also part of a larger situation that we may not understand. Robots are programmed with every bit of instruction as to what they're able to do and what they're going to do. We are only like robots in the fact that we cannot do things that are beyond our ability. However, we are not given instructions on the choices that we make, those are entirely up to us.

Say you go to a fancy Italian restaurant and you have the choice between pizza and lasagna. You've had pizza already this week, because you love it so much, and you're considering the lasagna instead. However, you decide on the pizza because you haven't eaten the pizza at this particular restaurant. No one has influenced your decision, you made the choice. In making this choice, your life is about to change: You begin a conversation with a beautiful woman who shares your love of pizza, fall in love with her, marry and start a family.

What I propose is this; You would say what if I decided on the lasagna? I would tell you that you wouldn't have because you made the only choice, the right choice, of your own free will. Regardless of the outcome, right or wrong there is only the choice that will project you forward in your individual story. We cannot make choices beyond our ability, or beyond our individual story within the bigger picture. The story is written and the future already decided, yet we still have a part to play as individuals in the grand scheme.

 

[GillDouglas]

Adam and Eve were not created totally depraved yet they were still capable of sinning.
Peter was NOT totally depraved simply because he sinned.
Total depravity is not needed for one to be a sinner.
Totally depravity therefore is not taught in the bible as the reason men are sinners, men are sinners for they choose to sin. Men are not passively born sinners/depraved.


What is the basis of God's mercy and wrath whereby God chooses some to be saved over others?

Total depravity has nothing to do with the ability to sin. It has everything to do with ability, or lack of it in this case, to change our stripes. The inability to commune with God and change our posture is the first valid point in which the other four stand on.