A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[Late Apex]

You're not the one making a choice if God already made the choice for you.

Did the Jewish leaders make a choice to crucify Jesus Christ? Yes, they did. Did God make the choice that Jesus Christ should die on the cross before it happened? Yes, He did. Are those that crucified Jesus Christ guilty? Yes, they are. Apparently one can make a choice and even be ACCOUNTABLE for said choice even when God decides what is going to happen ahead of time. That pretty much settles the issue, for me.
All glory to God!

 

[Late Apex]

The answer I'm looking for is the solution to the contradiction between Gods will and yours.

The "solution" for me is to simply believe it. No, I do not fully understand and it is indeed a mystery, TO ME. However, it really does give me comfort.

Speaking on "God's will." The very best place I can be is in line with "God's will." Correct? Therefore, if every move I take, every decision I make is in line with God's will, what better place to be?
What better prayer than asking God to make my will, the same as His will? That's EXACTLY what I want.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Out of our free will choices " You have no free will choices because if God determined your choices before hand (because He causes ALL things to occur) then you're just acting out what you were predestined to do and your free will is an illusion.

Much worse than that, all sin and evil would be caused by Him. Which is impossible.

And robots dont need instructions, free moral agents need instruction. Robots follow programming, not by choice but by design. How do you have free will if God determines all things? ALL things.

Excellent point!

 

[FreeGrace2]

You still have to make a choice. You still have to act upon the means that God provides. Yes, the story is written and there is only one right decision but only God knows what that is.

Which doesn't support the Calvinist's claim that God's sovereignty causes all things.

Your statement describes God's omniscience, not His sovereignty.

It seems that Calvinism only recognizes God's attribute of omniscience from the "lens" of God's sovereignty. iow, the ONLY reason God knows all things is because He causes all things. Such a view actually denies that He can know all things apart from His causing all things. So their understanding of God's omniscience is meaningless.

 

[Felix.Gov]

Did the Jewish leaders make a choice to crucify Jesus Christ? Yes, they did. Did God make the choice that Jesus Christ should die on the cross before it happened? Yes, He did. Are those that crucified Jesus Christ guilty? Yes, they are. Apparently one can make a choice and even be ACCOUNTABLE for said choice even when God decides what is going to happen ahead of time. That pretty much settles the issue, for me.
All glory to God!

Ok let me give you the non Calvinist interpretation of that. God brought about the circumstances such that the outcome would be that the Jewish leaders would crucify Jesus. They acted freely so they're totally responsible. God knows what a person would do in particular circumstances and that's how He executed His plan. I.e... Jesus spoke in parables so that some of the Jews wouldn't believe. Why ? Because if everyone believed that He was the messiah the Jews would have never crucified Him and thus there would be no redemption. THATS how God works out His plan. So that's not a contradiction or problem for me. However, It is for you because you're saying God made them do it AND that they did it and ultimately they're still guilty which makes no sense.

 

[Felix.Gov]

Sure it is and Romans 12:3 refutes your opinion.

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

God gave to each believer in His body the church their measure of faith, then that measure large or small is God's gift. Each one has faith in Christ to save them as a gift from God to those whom He has foreknown whom He then predestined to all be glorified together with Christ.

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

It's important to understand that the word "faith" has multiple meanings. Not every instance is speaking of salvific faith. How do we know which usage of the word "faith" the author is using ? Context. So let's get some more on that scripture that you seemingly plucked out.

“For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:3-6‬ ‭

Let's insert what you're taking faith to mean and see if it still makes sense.

“For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of (trust in God for salvation ). For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his (trust in God for salvation) ;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:3-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now you may have other scriptures that you believe teach that God gives us salvific faith (or all faith for that matter). But clearly this scripture is not teaching that.

 

[Late Apex]

Ok let me give you the non Calvinist interpretation of that. God brought about the circumstances such that the outcome would be that the Jewish leaders would crucify Jesus. They acted freely so they're totally responsible. God knows what a person would do in particular circumstances and that's how He executed His plan. I.e... Jesus spoke in parables so that some of the Jews wouldn't believe. Why ? Because if everyone believed that He was the messiah the Jews would have never crucified Him and thus there would be no redemption. THATS how God works out His plan. So that's not a contradiction or problem for me. However, It is for you because you're saying God made them do it AND that they did it and ultimately they're still guilty which makes no sense.

God does not make anyone sin. That is clear in the Bible. However, it is also clear that God knows the end from the beginning.
Again, a mystery. I have absolutely no problem with it.

 

[Felix.Gov]

God does not make anyone sin. That is clear in the Bible. However, it is also clear that God knows the end from the beginning.
Again, a mystery. I have absolutely no problem with it.

Brother that's the problem. Your systematic logical followed out makes God responsible for sin because He causes ALL things to occur. It's abundantly clear that's a contradiction and inconsistent with what scripture teaches about the nature of God. If you want to call it a mystery you may do so, but i hope you reckongize this problem with your systematic. Maybe you should consider the possibility that you may have misunderstood some things. I encourage you to think hard and pray about this and see things a different way. All I wanted you was to see things from my perspective about your systematic. I think you see it now. Anyway you admit it's a mystery so I'll take that to mean this topic is coming to a close. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these important issues and thank you for your cordatility. Many blessing to you brother.

 

[Late Apex]

Brother that's the problem. Your systematic logical followed out makes God responsible for sin because He causes ALL things to occur. It's abundantly clear that's a contradiction and inconsistent with what scripture teaches about the nature of God. If you want to call it a mystery you may do so, but i hope you reckongize this problem with your systematic. Maybe you should consider the possibility that you may have misunderstood some things. I encourage you to think hard and pray about this and see things a different way. All I wanted you was to see things from my perspective about your systematic. I think you see it now. Anyway you admit it's a mystery so I'll take that to mean this topic is coming to a close. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these important issues and thank you for your cordatility. Many blessing to you brother.

Have you read the Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink? A assume you have. He deals with your question very directly. What do you think of Pink?

 

[sdowney717]

It's important to understand that the word "faith" has multiple meanings. Not every instance is speaking of salvific faith. How do we know which usage of the word "faith" the author is using ? Context. So let's get some more on that scripture that you seemingly plucked out.

“For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:3-6‬ ‭

Let's insert what you're taking faith to mean and see if it still makes sense.

“For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of (trust in God for salvation ). For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his (trust in God for salvation) ;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:3-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now you may have other scriptures that you believe teach that God gives us salvific faith (or all faith for that matter). But clearly this scripture is not teaching that.

Saving faith is according to grace, and no there is only one faith. The one and only.
If faith is according to grace, then it is God's gift.

Ephesians 4:4-6New King James Version (NKJV)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Romans 4, teaches faith is a gift by His grace, for that the purpose of 'the promise' which is eternal life is made sure and certain to all the seed (of Abraham) which seed include gentiles who he called as well as jews.

God convinced Abraham of His truths by strengthening Abraham's faith. And the 'all' mentioned here is not all people but only those who believe.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

And salvation is only for those he has called which is not all people.

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 1:1
[ Greeting ] Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

Romans 1:6
among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Romans 1:7
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 9:7
nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

Romans 9:24
even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Butch5]

Adam had the potential to sin because of his free will. Adam also had the ability commune and live with God. This is not the same as the idea of Total Depravity which is that we are born into a state where we are at war with the holiness of God, incapable of doing any holy works, total disobedient and bent on following our evil/selfish hearts. Because of that state we are unable to commune with God or be in His presence, and we are incapable of doing anything that would take us out of that state.

This brings us to the complete reliance on God to regenerate our heart to be inclined to follow Him rather than ourselves. The righteousness of Christ is imputed on us and we are made able to commune with Him, and inevitably be in His presence.

I understand that this is what you believe, however, it doesn't answer the question. When God finished creation He said it was very good and yet Adam sinned. If man is totally depraved then Adam had to be also, yet God said it was very good.

 

[EmSw]

Not only are spiritual gifts a work of God's free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts. This means that every possible ground of boasting is taken away. Faith is from God and without God we cannot believe as we ought to believe.

Hello Doug. I am wondering, have you ever heard anyone boast of faith?

You gave some passages on faith. Let me give you some.

Hebrews 12:2 - "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

Romans 12:3 - "For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned."

1 Timothy 1:13-14 - "though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Philippians 1:29 - "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake"

Mark 9:24 - 'Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”'

Luke 17:5 - 'The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”'

It is my belief that faith belongs to man. Look at Luke 17:5 above - 'Increase OUR faith!'

Matthew 6:30
Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

Does God give 'little' faith? Who made it a 'little' faith?

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

Why is 'great' faith mentioned here, and 'little' faith mentioned above? Who made faith 'great' in Matthew 8:10?

Matthew 9:2
Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

Whose faith did Jesus see above? Notice the word 'their'.

Matthew 9:22
But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.

Whose faith has made her well? Notice the word 'your'.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes, saying, “according to your faith let it be to you.”

According to whose faith, do you think the blind man was healed? Notice to the word 'your'.

Matthew 17:17
Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.”

Why was Jesus perturbed because the disciples were faithless? Why didn't He just give them faith? Also, when did His disciples lose their faith?

Matthew 17:20
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Why didn't Jesus just give those in unbelief the faith of a mustard seed?

Matthew 21:21
So Jesus answered and said to them, Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.

How can anyone doubt with God's faith? Is His faith that weak that it can't overcome doubt?

Mark 4:40
But He said to them, “why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?”

Now Doug, how did the disciple have 'no faith' if God gave them faith? Did they lose this gift? Better tell FG2 about losing this gift. Did they forfeit it?

This is quite amazing, having no faith after God gave it to them. Please explain. How can one doubt and lose God's gift? Do you think you could lose your faith which saves?

 

[Butch5]

Sure, Adam WAS very good, until he sinned. Remember, God does not grade on a curve. Proof of this is the fact that the ONLY way God could JUSTLY reconcile a people to Himself was to essentially give His own life on the cross. If sin was not such a big problem, why did God humble Himself, take the form of a man and give His own sinless perfect life as a sacrifice?

Then the Calvinist has to either say that Adam was totally depraved, when God said, 'it was very good', or they have to say that man is very good until he sins.

 

[EmSw]

Romans 1:1
[ Greeting ] Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

Romans 1:6
among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Romans 1:7
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 9:7
nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

Romans 9:24
even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Hey sdowney, God is calling you now to be a saint. Do you freely accept?

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 9:7
nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

The deniers of salvation by God's grace alone refuse to believe the calling is according to the promise of God made to Abraham that Abraham would be the father of a great nation of believers, that is those who are 'the called', 'to be saints', are the sons of Abraham and it is to the 'descendents of Abraham' alone that the promise of eternal life is given. It is those God has called whom Christ aids to salvation.

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

The children mentioned here are not all people, but only the children whom God gave to Christ.
Those children are the descendents of Abraham, both jew and gentile.

The others who do not receive mercy to be saved from the Heavenly Father are the children of the devil planted in God's field.
Review the parable of the wheat and the tares. Indeed why would they be saved since they are not God's children whatsoever.

To be a child of God, you must be one of children of promise, now believers are as Isaac, children of promise whom God gave to Abraham as a gift. Salvation was not extended to
Ishmail since Ishmael was not a child of promise. God clearly states that through ISAAC your SEED SHALL BE THE CALLED>
Romans 9 most definitely teaches the both jew and gentile must be one of the called of God in order to obtain salvation, otherwise they are Satan's children who desire to do Satan's will. And wheat doesn't turn into tares, nor tares into the wheat, each tree bears its fruit according to its nature.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

[sdowney717]

If any doubt that gentile believers are children of promise, here ya go. God's children are children according to God's promise meaning they were called and chosen according to God's will as was Isaac the promised child born according to the Spirit, and not Ishmael born according to the flesh.

Galatians 4:27-29New King James Version (NKJV)
27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Galatian 3
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[EmSw]

Romans 9:7
nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

The deniers of salvation by God's grace alone refuse to believe the calling is according to the promise of God made to Abraham that Abraham would be the father of a great nation of believers, that is those who are 'the called', 'to be saints', are the sons of Abraham and it is to the 'descendents of Abraham' alone that the promise of eternal life is given. It is those God has called whom Christ aids to salvation.

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

The children mentioned here are not all people, but only the children whom God gave to Christ.
Those children are the descendents of Abraham, both jew and gentile.

The others who do not receive mercy to be saved from the Heavenly Father are the children of the devil planted in God's field.
Review the parable of the wheat and the tares. Indeed why would they be saved since they are not God's children whatsoever.

To be a child of God, you must be one of children of promise, now believers are as Isaac, children of promise whom God gave to Abraham as a gift. Salvation was not extended to
Ishmail since Ishmael was not a child of promise. God clearly states that through ISAAC your SEED SHALL BE THE CALLED>
Romans 9 most definitely teaches the both jew and gentile must be one of the called of God in order to obtain salvation, otherwise they are Satan's children who desire to do Satan's will. And wheat doesn't turn into tares, nor tares into the wheat, each tree bears its fruit according to its nature.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Which of the twelve tribes are not the seed of Isaac?

 

[sdowney717]

Which of the twelve tribes are not the seed of Isaac?

Not all Israel are of Israel, meaning God only considers them to be of Israel if they are a child of His promise who are born according to God's Spirit and not according to the flesh. So a nation of believers in God's promises within a nation of those who did not believe. Those who did not believe God, He destroys. Only those called can believe God's promises since everything about them is special and unique, created by God to receive His promises by faith. It is them God foreknew, and since God foreknew them to be His people, they are the ones He saves and no one else.

Romans 11 clearly teaches God does not cast away His people whom He foreknew. And in this case only a few, the 7,000 where then He foreknew.

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And so then a truism, God never casts away His people whom He foreknew!
True back then and true today.

 

[EmSw]

Not all Israel are of Israel, meaning God only considers them to be of Israel if they are a child of His promise who are born according to God's Spirit and not according to the flesh.

That's what Paul considered, not God. Here's what Jesus said -

John 8:37
I have known that ye are seed of Abraham, but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you;

Even those who sought to kill Him, Jesus said He knew they were the seed of Abraham. It is those who have the word of God that Jesus considers His children, not a promise. Otherwise, Jesus would have said He knew they WEREN'T the seed of Abraham.

Besides, the promise to Abraham was to be a father to a multitude of nations, not just to Israel. The covenant between God and Abraham's seed was a covenant of many nations and circumcision (Genesis 17). Even Ishmael was circumcised. It was those who were not circumcised who were cut off from the covenant.

Yes, the covenant of circumcision was between God and Isaac and his descendants, according to the flesh. Yet, we find Abraham circumcising Ishmael also. Where Paul got 'according to God's spirit' is a mystery; it's not found in Genesis 17.

So a nation of believers in God's promises within a nation of those who did not believe. Those who did not believe God, He destroys. Only those called can believe God's promises since everything about them is special and unique, created by God to receive His promises by faith. It is them God foreknew, and since God foreknew them to be His people, they are the ones He saves and no one else.

Romans 11 clearly teaches God does not cast away His people whom He foreknew. And in this case only a few, the 7,000 where then He foreknew.

Here again, Paul should have read and known Genesis 17:14. God tells us why people were cut off, and it wasn't because of some 'not foreknowing' them. Perhaps you will read Genesis 17 and know what Paul didn't know.

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And so then a truism, God never casts away His people whom He foreknew!
True back then and true today.

Paul should have said God has not cast away His people who were circumcised. Then we would have been correct.

Why Paul is bringing Elijah into the conversation makes no sense. Genesis 17 says nothing of a remnant. Paul is comparing apples to oranges. Paul could have all his answers if he had read and known Genesis 17.

Paul asks, has God cast away His people? If Paul had read Genesis 17, he would have known God cuts off His people who are not circumcised, not because of some kind of not foreknowing them. Read the Bible for yourself sdowney, and don't take someone else's word for it.