A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[sdowney717]

Brother with all due respect what do these verses about "little children" prove ? It certainly didn't address anything I was saying in the quote that you have of me.

Because you said this and shows your state of heart in this matter.

"How is it possible for all children to be saved ? What if a child dies who was, before the foundation of the world, dammed to eternal hell? It doesn't matter if they're children because they were never chosen."

 

[Felix.Gov]

Because you said this and shows your state of heart in this matter.

"How is it possible for all children to be saved ? What if a child dies who was, before the foundation of the world, dammed to eternal hell? It doesn't matter if they're children because they were never chosen."

Ah ok. I was only asking that as a matter of internal consistency for the Calvinist. I'm not a calvinist but if I was i would be logically prohibited from saying that all children would be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, I probably believe them more than you. Only I believe everything He said, including, to enter life, keep the commandments, and enter through the narrow gate which leads to life.

But you have no idea of how many, or how long, or how perfectly.

 

[sdowney717]

Ah ok. I was only asking that as a matter of internal consistency for the Calvinist. I'm not a calvinist but if I was i would be logically prohibited from saying that all children would be saved.

I am a calvinist and I have no problem with God saving little children and nursing infants as the scripture says they are.
Mark 10:14
Mark 9:37
Matthew 18:3

Most certainly the children of a believing spouse are holy.
Which is one reason Calvin approved of Infant baptism for the children of the church, since if God considered them holy, then they have all the benefits of the believer spiritually even though they have not yet confessed Christ. And also if God says they are holy, then they are acceptable in the beloved and born of God. Being we live with imperfect knowledge, don't judge them unworthy, you don't know the future what their life will become. If they survive, children turn into adults, but we don't know their time when they will die. Spiritually all little children who die, die in the LORD and are elect to be saved.

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Mark 9:37New King James Version (NKJV)
37 “Whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me but Him who sent Me.”

 

[EmSw]

But you have no idea of how many, or how long, or how perfectly.

Likewise, you don't know how much belief you need.

 

[Felix.Gov]

Ok, may you're not understanding my point. We both agree, according to your position there are those who are the unelect. They were such before the foundation of the world. Ok now, imagine that a mother is carrying a baby who was (before the foundation of the world) unelect. The baby's status doesn't change with age. It was unelect, so wheather it dies at 88 or at 8 that person will go to hell. How is this unavoidable?

 

[sdowney717]

Ok, may you're not understanding my point. We both agree, according to your position there are those who are the unelect. They were such before the foundation of the world. Ok now, imagine that a mother is carrying a baby who was (before the foundation of the world) unelect. The baby's status doesn't change with age. It was unelect, so wheather it dies at 88 or at 8 that person will go to hell. How is this unavoidable?

You have no understanding of another person's relationship with God.
We just live in the present, only God knows what tomorrow brings.
For example, all the days ordained for us were written down in God's book before they came to be.
God has predetermined the day of our birth and the day we will die.
So if a child dies as an infant then it was their time to die and they will be with God.
But if the child grows into an old man and never confesses belief in Christ, they will die and go to the fire.
Everything God has foreknown and determined from the very foundation of the earth.
Psalm 139:14-17New King James Version (NKJV)
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 11:36
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Colossians 1:16-17New King James Version (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Felix.Gov]

You have no understanding of another person's relationship with God.
We just live in the present, only God knows what tomorrow brings.
For example, all the days ordained for us were written down in God's book before they came to be.
God has predetermined the day of our birth and the day we will die.
So if a child dies as an infant then it was their time to die and they will be with God.
But if the child grows into an old man and never confesses belief in Christ, they will die and go to the fire.
Everything God has foreknown and determined from the very foundation of the earth.
Psalm 139:14-17New King James Version (NKJV)
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!

Ok it doeant seem like we're on the same page lol. Even if it conceded the point as to the internal consistency of your view that still doesn't take into consideration that inidividual election unto salvation is not established in scripture. And just as a matter of fact there's no a single verse that shows God electing an individual unto eternal life or unto eternal damnation. We can begin with one if you have one in mind but please don't blast a bunch of scriptures because then we can't have a productive discussion. If you think there's one then let's look at one at a time. Thanks

 

[sdowney717]

Ok it doeant seem like we're on the same page lol. Even if it conceded the point as to the internal consistency of your view that still doesn't take into consideration that inidividual election unto salvation is not established in scripture. And just as a matter of fact there's no a single verse that shows God electing an individual unto eternal life or unto eternal damnation. We can begin with one if you have one in mind but please don't blast a bunch of scriptures because then we can't have a productive discussion. If you think there's one then let's look at one at a time. Thanks

I knew that was your position from reading your posts.
You can't fight the scriptures though and plenty of them point to individual election.
There is no point to showing them to you again, I am certain you have read them before.

"Reprobation Asserted" by John Bunyan - Chapters I, II and III

 

[Felix.Gov]

I knew that was your position from reading your posts.
You can't fight the scriptures though and plenty of them point to individual election.
There is no point to showing them to you again, I am certain you have read them before.

"Reprobation Asserted" by John Bunyan - Chapters I, II and III

Brother i don't even know what to say. With all due respect I think it's clear to all that you have no ready interpretations of any scriptures that even suggest individual election unto salvation and you're just dismissing my challenge with a wave of the hand. You say there are plenty but all you have to post is one and we can walk through it together. I suppose you're not interested in that though. Well it's been a good discussion. Blessings to you brother.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Likewise, you don't know how much belief you need.

Oh, but I do. The Bible provides that answer.
Luke 17:6
"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed"

The obvious point is that belief cannot be percentaged as keeping the commands can.

One either does believe, or does not believe.

But at least you've admitted here that you have no answer for how to 'enter life' other than just a very vague idea.

 

[EmSw]

Oh, but I do. The Bible provides that answer.
Luke 17:6
"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed"

The obvious point is that belief cannot be percentaged as keeping the commands can.

One either does believe, or does not believe.

But at least you've admitted here that you have no answer for how to 'enter life' other than just a very vague idea.

And how much is a mustard seed? Since you believe you have faith as a mustard seed, how many mountains have you moved? How many trees have you uprooted? If you haven't moved mountains or trees, you don't even have that much faith.

'If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.' And please, don't question the Savior; that's a sign of unbelief and weakness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And how much is a mustard seed?

The "smallest of all seeds".
Matt 13:32
It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it grows up it is larger than any garden plant and becomes a tree, so that the birds flying about come and nest in its branches.”
CJB

Since you believe you have faith as a mustard seed, how many mountains have you moved?

Can't count.

[QUOE] How many trees have you uprooted?[/QUOTE]
Again, can't count.

If you haven't moved mountains or trees, you don't even have that much faith.

Says you.

'If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.' And please, don't question the Savior; that's a sign of unbelief and weakness.

Again, how many? How well? How often?

If you don't know the answers to these questions, then how can you even know if you have achieved salvation?

 

[EmSw]

The "smallest of all seeds".
Matt 13:32
It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it grows up it is larger than any garden plant and becomes a tree, so that the birds flying about come and nest in its branches.”
CJB

How do you know you have that much?

Can't count.

Again, can't count.

You can't count how many mountains you have removed, or how many trees you have uprooted? Sure sounds like you don't have faith of a mustard seed. Maybe you should try harder. Let's us know when you have moved one of these. Then we will know you have faith.

Says you.

Again, how many? How well? How often?

Of course, you question Jesus' words. You have no faith in them. How is it you say you believe? You are full of doubt.

Besides, how many of His life-giving commandments do you desire to keep? How often do you desire to keep them? How long do you desire to keep them?

If you don't know the answers to these questions, then how can you even know if you have achieved salvation?

I don't need to know the answer; I just need to obey Him to enter life.

Why do you call Jesus Lord, and do not do the things He says?

 

[FreeGrace2]

How do you know you have that much?

I have faith. That's all I need for salvation.

You can't count how many mountains you have removed, or how many trees you have uprooted? Sure sounds like you don't have faith of a mustard seed.

How would you know?

Maybe you should try harder. Let's us know when you have moved one of these. Then we will know you have faith.

There is no problem. Those who know me have SEEN my faith.

Of course, you question Jesus' words.

No, I totally disagree with your faulty interpretation of His words.

You have no faith in them.

I do not believe your faulty interpretation of Jesus' words.

How is it you say you believe? You are full of doubt.

I have no doubt about what Jesus said. But I totally don't believe your interpretations.

Besides, how many of His life-giving commandments do you desire to keep?

Why is that a question, since your interpretation isn't "desiring to keep commandments" when your view is to keep them? Have you changed your theology all of a sudden?

Was it my questions about how many, how perfectly and how long that challenged your views, so you decided that desiring to keep them is easier than actually just keeping them?

How often do you desire to keep them? How long do you desire to keep them?

Is this your new improved theology? Does this get one saved?

I don't need to know the answer; I just need to obey Him to enter life.

lol, and you don't even know how many to keep, how perfectly to keep them, or how long you need to keep them.

iow, you still don't know how to be saved in your own theology.

Why do you call Jesus Lord, and do not do the things He says?

You know nothing. I call Him Lord because He is, and I do what He says.

 

[AFrazier]

"Calvinism" is scriptural

That's a matter of opinion.

 

[AFrazier]

I'm not a humanist nor am I an Arminian. However, the premise of Reformed theology is that all men are totally depraved. This idea is nowhere taught in Scripture. So, it's starting with a flawed premise.

I would say that it is taught in scripture. God told Cain that his desire would be for sin, but that he must master it. Paul said that the commandment, "you shall not covet," inspired in him covetousness. Temptation, James says, is borne of our own lusts. Our natural inclination is sinfulness.

However, I am not on board with the whole idea of total depravity. Just as Cain had a choice, so too do we have a choice in everything we do. We don't have to choose sin. The idea that we can't help ourselves is a farce in my opinion. Would that Pelagius had won the debate over Augustine.

 

[AFrazier]

No you are the one who got on this thread and said "Calvinism" isn't scriptural. And yet have said nothing to prove your foolish statement. But cowardly make remarks without backing what you believe. It's only fallacy to the natural unregenerate humanist who seeks to make man into what he isn't, and deny Gods Sovereignty. I assume your premise is that man is capable of doing good correct? The old pelagian heresy

Tell me, have you actually read the works of Pelagius? It's label as a heresy is relative to someone who believed in total depravity (Augustine). Had the debate turned out differently, total depravity would be the heresy.

Do yourself a favor and don't throw around terms like blasphemy or heresy. They are ugly and unnecessary, except as absolutely appropriate. Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism are recognized schools of thought in systematic theology. And frankly, I find that many of Pelagius' teachings are soundly based in scripture. More so than you clearly understand, else you wouldn't speak of them in such a way.

 

[GillDouglas]

Tell me, have you actually read the works of Pelagius? It's label as a heresy is relative to someone who believed in total depravity (Augustine). Had the debate turned out differently, total depravity would be the heresy.

Heresy being the matter of opinion relative to the individual calling a system of theology heresy. Arminius and Pelagius both questioned Augustine's understanding of grace. Arminius and his followers were a form of Erasmian humanists who had early on disputed Luther, and of course in later years, Calvin.

I'm certain that this word was thrown around a lot on both sides, during such debates. Just as these individuals didn't agree on others areas of belief, we too disagree. Yet there is (or at least should be) growth on both sides for which we benefit as they did in those days. For example, the stance of Calvinistic understanding of grace had only come about after thoughtful consideration in response to the Armenian challenge.

While I would agree that the Armenian stance is a lot more popular, especially among non-denominational, some Baptist churches, and other mainstream churches, the Reformed point of view is still alive and well. Neither being deemed irrelevant or heretical enough to vanish over time. Even the teachings of Pelagianism can be found in the Mormon LDS church.