A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[EmSw]

Why though do they believe?
See with your POV, the golden chain of salvation (Romans 8:30) is broken by man. All God foreknows He saves and those who are not saved, He did not foreknow them so He did not predestine them, and they will never believe.

God has no intention of saving all people. God's purposes can not be thwarted.

So, you are limiting God's foreknowledge. Did God foreknow Judas? Did He foreknow Hitler? If so, then your logic is universalism.

 

[sdowney717]

So, you are limiting God's foreknowledge. Did God foreknow Judas? Did He foreknow Hitler? If so, then your logic is universalism.

Foreknew here is as in a relationship of love, God foreknew what God would do for them, that God foreknew those who are His, they are the ones predestined to all be glorified. People like Hitler, God did not foreknow in that way. It is like Jesus saying He NEVER knew them.
If Christ never knew them, Christ also never foreknew them.

Matthew 7:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Doing the will of the Father is that you believe in the Son.
This is the work of the Father, that you believe in the Son.
All those God foreknew, God will do His work in them and all of them will look to and believe in the Son for their eternal life.


John 6:36-38 New King James Version (NKJV)
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Everyone who 'sees' the son and 'believes'.
Now today we could not physically see the Son.
So then it must be a spiritual seeing, an understanding, not a physical thing with your fleshly eyes.
That means revelation and God reveals secrets to men through His Spirit.
You can't get that info without being a 'spiritual alive man', so God must give you the new birth in order for you to believe.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

1 Corinthians 2:13
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Holy Spirit teaches spiritually alive people, not spiritually dead people.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus tells this person to follow Him.
He tells this person to let the 'dead' bury the dead.
Since they were not physically dead yet as the 'dead man being buried', they the 'walking dead' must be spiritually dead men. And spiritually dead men will not follow Christ and indeed Christ did not tell those 'walking dead' to follow Him. But this disciple of Christ will follow the Christ, so he must then not be spiritually dead but alive in the Spirit else Christ would not tell him to follow Him.

Matthew 8:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)
21 Then another of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

22 But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is nothing mentioned about what Jesus said about salvation. Where is keeping the commandments to enter life?

How many of the commandments? All of them? And how perfectly? And for how long? Throughout one's life? Or how many years?

 

[FreeGrace2]

God has no intention of saving all people. God's purposes can not be thwarted.

This is God's intention:
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 1 Tim 2

If God never intended any specific people for salvation, then Christ would not have died for them. Obviously, that isn't true.

 

[sdowney717]

This is God's intention:
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 1 Tim 2

If God never intended any specific people for salvation, then Christ would not have died for them. Obviously, that isn't true.

God's intentions are what actually happens.
Which is that in Romans 8.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God desires all people to be saved, but God only actually calls some and then they are saved.
Without the actual calling that leads to actual justification, man remains a slave to sin and Satan.
God commands all people to repent, but the only ones that do repent are the one God foreknew who God then predestined.
If your not called according to His deliberate purpose to be saved, then you will never repent since you will never be born of God and your desires will remain aligned with the devil's against Christ.

Its like you wish and want someone to get you chocolate ice cream, but you know if you don't get up and get it yourself, it just is not going to happen.
So God desires men repent but He knows unless He changes their hearts they will never do so.

Malachi 4:5-6New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

God can turn the hearts of any He chooses.

 

[Late Apex]

Exactly what condition did the fall (Our forefather's disobedience toward God in eating of the forbidden fruit) bring mankind? The fall brought mankind into an inherent condition of sin and misery. That all of mankind, on that day, in losing communion with God had been made liable to the miseries of this life, subject to God's wrath, and cursed to death. No man is able to redeem himself, unable to maintain the law with each transgression in thought, word or deed. This is the depravity each of us is born into, totally unable to span the distance between God and man on our own.

Did God leave ALL of mankind to endure alone under the curse brought upon by Adam, to suffer and perish in an inescapable state of misery and sin? No. Out of His mere good pleasure He established a covenant of grace and at the point of creation elected some to everlasting life in order to deliver them out of the current condition and into salvation by way of a Redeemer. These elect, who belong to the Christ, are given to Him by the Father not because of any merit in them or choices made by them but by the sovereign grace and mercy of the Creator only. This is the unconditional election of Christ's people.

By what means are Christ's people made partakers of this salvation? By the effectual application of the redemption by the Holy Spirit, the righteousness purchased by Christ's sacrifice. In this application, we are convinced of our sin and misery and enlightened in our knowledge of Christ. We are persuaded and enabled then to embrace Jesus as it is freely offered to us in the gospel. This event at any given point in time occurs for some, also does not occur for others. This is the limited atonement in that Christ died for ALL of His people.

Can the application of Christ's redemption and His saving grace be denied? From birth all do resist, and the hard of heart persist until the appointed time where one is transformed by the Holy Spirit. Would the lifelong and stalwart Atheist suddenly change his tune of his own free will and, having all his life's work discounting the existence of God undone, choose such a path? Why would he not remain hard of heart, like so many others? Only the Spirit of God can affect this realm of men, that is the spiritual one, by making everyday events, including the reading and preaching of the Gospel, effectual to one's salvation. This personal experience, while unique in respect to the individual's circumstances surrounding the event, is for each an irresistible and irreversible change.

What benefit does a person gain by this life changing event? We must first remind the reader that the decrees of God are eternal according to His will. All that He has put into motion, the means and the end, will come to pass. Those called partake of justification, adoption and sanctification. Justification being the pardon of all sins and acceptance as righteous by way Christ's righteousness. Adoption being received into the number and rights of the sons of God. Sanctification being the continual renewal where we are enable more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness. This is the preservation of Christ's people, enabled to endure this life's challenges with guidance of our Helper, in order that way may glorify God.

I like your post. I want to ask your opinion on are these two verses.

Isaiah 59:
[1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

Luke 1:
[44] For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

It is my understanding from these two passages that God can save anyone under any circumstances, even someone in his mothers womb, without having read the Bible. I find this very interesting and exciting. What do you say?

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's intentions are what actually happens.

1 Tim 2:4 and 6 are clear enough as to God's will.

Which is that in Romans 8.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God desires all people to be saved, but God only actually calls some and then they are saved.
Without the actual calling that leads to actual justification, man remains a slave to sin and Satan.
God commands all people to repent, but the only ones that do repent are the one God foreknew who God then predestined.

None of this speaks to the scope of Christ's atonement.

If your not called according to His deliberate purpose to be saved, then you will never repent since you will never be born of God and your desires will remain aligned with the devil's against Christ.

I have requested ANY verse that says that Christ died ONLY for some, and not ALL. Are there any?

God can turn the hearts of any He chooses.

Where does the Bible say that God chooses who will believe? I'm not questioning God's ability to do what He wants. I am questioning the notion that Christ didn't die for everyone.

 

[EmSw]

Foreknew here is as in a relationship of love, God foreknew what God would do for them, that God foreknew those who are His, they are the ones predestined to all be glorified. People like Hitler, God did not foreknow in that way. It is like Jesus saying He NEVER knew them.
If Christ never knew them, Christ also never foreknew them.

You are adding to what is written. It's just like I could say He foreknew those with crooked teeth. All the passage says is those whom He foreknew, that's all.

Matthew 7:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Doing the will of the Father is that you believe in the Son.
This is the work of the Father, that you believe in the Son.
All those God foreknew, God will do His work in them and all of them will look to and believe in the Son for their eternal life.

You Paulinist keep leaving out the most important part of the Matthew 7. I will add it here since you conveniently left it out - 'DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!' Besides, these verses could easily apply to Paul.

YOU doing the will of the Father is not the same as the work of the FATHER. Let me ask, is this the will of God?

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

John 6:36-38 New King James Version (NKJV)

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Everyone who 'sees' the son and 'believes'.
Now today we could not physically see the Son.
So then it must be a spiritual seeing, an understanding, not a physical thing with your fleshly eyes.
That means revelation and God reveals secrets to men through His Spirit.
You can't get that info without being a 'spiritual alive man', so God must give you the new birth in order for you to believe.

Do you believe that to enter life, you must keep His commandments? If not, then how is it 'just' believing will save you?

1 John 5:20

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

1 Corinthians 2:13
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Holy Spirit teaches spiritually alive people, not spiritually dead people.

Is it true that to know Him, you must keep His commandments? Is this foolishness to you?

 

[EmSw]

How many of the commandments? All of them? And how perfectly? And for how long? Throughout one's life? Or how many years?

Keep going FG2. Your words only show you do not believe Jesus.

 

[Late Apex]

I have requested ANY verse that says that Christ died ONLY for some, and not ALL. Are there any?

Certainly that is a valid question. I will try to answer your question by asking you a question.

Isaiah 53
[11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Here is the question. If Jesus Christ died for all mankind, died for all of humanities sins, how could He be "satisfied" if only a portion of those He died for will ever be glorified?
I don't know about you, but when I pay for something and I don't get it, I get angry. Furthermore, if the price I paid was my own life, I know the only thing I would NOT be is "satisfied."

 

[Felix.Gov]

Would any of my reformed brothers like to talk on google hangouts about this or some other sort of video call or live chat medium? It would seem like a more productive discussion if we could actually talk. Please message me. Thanks !

 

[Marvin Knox]

Here is the question. If Jesus Christ died for all mankind, died for all of humanities sins, how could He be "satisfied" if only a portion of those He died for will ever be glorified?
I don't know about you, but when I pay for something and I don't get it, I get angry. Furthermore, if the price I paid was my own life, I know the only thing I would NOT be is "satisfied."

His satisfaction comes from doing the will of the Father and is not based in any way on others doing the will of the Father.

 

[GillDouglas]

I like your post. I want to ask your opinion on are these two verses.

Isaiah 59:
[1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

Luke 1:
[44] For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

It is my understanding from these two passages that God can save anyone under any circumstances, even someone in his mothers womb, without having read the Bible. I find this very interesting and exciting. What do you say?

Absolutely! Salvation belongs to God and He is Sovereign in all things. This applies to those who are saved and the method in which they are saved. So the blind/deaf, the unborn, and the otherwise limited individuals who would never hear/read or understand the Gospel, can be saved by the Grace and Mercy of our Lord.

We can take great comfort in this when we consider our family, friends, and people around the world who might be afflicted in such a way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"How many of the commandments? All of them? And how perfectly? And for how long? Throughout one's life? Or how many years?"

Keep going FG2. Your words only show you do not believe Jesus.

Actually, my words are a sincere desire to know exactly what is required, and it's quite clear that you don't even know.

If Jesus taught that keeping the Law results in eternal life, surely He would have specified how many, and how well, and for how long.

Otherwise, how would anyone know how to have eternal life?

It is these questions that beg answers of your theology.

Jesus DID say to "keep the Law to enter life". But it seems you've interpreted that to mean "receive eternal life". Yet without any Scriptural evidence for that. Which is why you cannot even answer these straightforward questions.

Paul had a very straightforward answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Why can't you answer my simple questions?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"I have requested ANY verse that says that Christ died ONLY for some, and not ALL. Are there any?"

Certainly that is a valid question.

Of course.

I will try to answer your question by asking you a question.

I don't think asking a question answers a question, but let's see.

Isaiah 53
[11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Here is the question. If Jesus Christ died for all mankind, died for all of humanities sins, how could He be "satisfied" if only a portion of those He died for will ever be glorified?

Because dying for mankind does not save mankind. It provides the free gift of eternal life, which can only be received through faith in Him.

I don't know about you, but when I pay for something and I don't get it, I get angry. Furthermore, if the price I paid was my own life, I know the only thing I would NOT be is "satisfied."

Jesus and His Father were quite satisfied by the fact that everyone in humanity could have the free gift of eternal life just for the believing.

This is what the Bible says about propitiation:
He is the atoning sacrifice (propitiation) for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2.

NT:2434 hilasmos (hil-as-mos'); atonement, i.e. (concretely) an expiator:
KJV - propitiation.

"expiate" - atone for (guilt or sin):"their sins must be expiated by sacrifice"synonyms:atone for, make amends for, make up for, do penance for, pay for, redress, redeem, offset, make good

 

[FreeGrace2]

Absolutely! Salvation belongs to God and He is Sovereign in all things. This applies to those who are saved and the method in which they are saved. So the blind/deaf, the unborn, and the otherwise limited individuals who would never hear/read or understand the Gospel, can be saved by the Grace and Mercy of our Lord.

Have you considered that this view of salvation removes God's SINGLE REQUIREMENT for saving a person? Believing in Christ.

We can take great comfort in this when we consider our family, friends, and people around the world who might be afflicted in such a way.

What comfort is found in the notion that Christ only died for some of mankind, not all of mankind, and one's infant or otherwise limited small child may not be in that "frozen/chosen" group?

 

[GillDouglas]

Have you considered that this view of salvation removes God's SINGLE REQUIREMENT for saving a person? Believing in Christ.

And how do those I mentioned believe? Only by the work of the Holy Spirit of course. The same goes for those who are not like the mentioned.

What comfort is found in the notion that Christ only died for some of mankind, not all of mankind, and one's infant or otherwise limited small child may not be in that "frozen/chosen" group?

Considering the verses mentioned about children, it brings me great comfort to know that they WILL be saved. Considering ALL of mankind, there is no need for us to go round and round, we both know that we don't agree on this point.

 

[Felix.Gov]

And how do those I mentioned believe? Only by the work of the Holy Spirit of course. The same goes for those who are not like the mentioned.


Considering the verses mentioned about children, it brings me great comfort to know that they WILL be saved. Considering ALL of mankind, there is no need for us to go round and round, we both know that we don't agree on this point.

How is it possible for all children to be saved ? What if a child dies who was, before the foundation of the world, dammed to eternal hell? It doesn't matter if they're children because they were never chosen.

 

[EmSw]

How many of the commandments? All of them? And how perfectly? And for how long? Throughout one's life? Or how many years?

Now I am going to give you the same questions.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

How much grace? How do you know you've been given enough? How much faith? Does it have to be perfect faith? And for how long? How can faith without works save, when James said it didn't?

I want Biblical answers and not free-grace answers.