A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[GillDouglas]

The problem with the Calvinist rendition of "total depravity" is the claim that man is unable to believe the gospel before regeneration, which cannot be shown from Scripture.

It's obvious that GD isn't going to respond to my posts, since all of them to him have been ignored, but if he believes that regeneration before faith is what leads to faith, then he should provide what he considers biblical evidence for that for the rest of the those who read this thread.

Or, maybe, another Calvinist will step up and provide what they consider biblical evidence for regeneration preceeding faith.

@FreeGrace2,

per your many requests here are your proof-texts regarding regeneration preceding faith, I will post the first for you to read and the rest to lookup and study on your own time -

John 6: 59 - 65:

Jesus said these things while He was teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. In hearing this, many of His disciples said, “This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?”

Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you? Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?

The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)

Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”

1Cor 2: 6 - 16:

Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Rather, as it is written:

“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no heart has imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love Him.”
But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. “For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Rom 8: 15, John 3, 1 Thess 1: 4, Ephesians 2: 1 - 5, 1 John 5: 1, 1 Cor 12: 3.

@FreeGrace2, the hard of heart remain as such until God intercedes. There is NO other way that man can reach the point of faith until God has made that man capable. If faith is a gift from God, how can man choose God without this gift? That is the teaching of the "T" in TULIP.

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2,

per your many requests here are your proof-texts regarding regeneration preceding faith, I will post the first for you to read and the rest to lookup and study on your own time -

Thanks for the answer.

John 6: 59 - 65:

Jesus said these things while He was teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. In hearing this, many of His disciples said, “This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?”

Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you? Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?

The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)

The bolded words "The Spirit gives life" do not speak about WHEN that occurs. So this passage doesn't teach the order.

Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”

This verse is a reference back to 6:44 - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

However, the next verse explains exactly who is drawn to Jesus:
"It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

So, we learn that God has taught (Rom 1:19,20) everyone (all), but only those who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus. Like the example of Cornelius in Acts 10.

1Cor 2: 6 - 16:

Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Rather, as it is written:

“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.” But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. “For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

As well, neither does this passage address the order of faith and regeneration. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth found in God's Word. That's what "taught by the Spirit" means. Not that the Holy Spirit regenerates one so they can understand the Word.

Rom 8: 15

" The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father."

This verse is about our adoption as sons, and doesn't speak to the issue of order between faith and regeneration.

John 3

I will assume this refers to 3:5 - "Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
This verse speaks of the necessity to be born physically and spiritually in order to enter the kingdom of God. But nothing about the order between faith and regeneration.

1 Thess 1: 4

"For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,"

This verse simply acknowledges that believers have been chosen. But nothing about the order between faith and regeneration.

Ephesians 2: 1 - 5

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

I would add v.8 to prove that faith precedes regeneration. Note in v.5 that Paul equates "made alive" which is regeneration with "been saved". Then, in v.8 we read that we are saved by grace through faith. The fact that Paul said "through faith" means that faith precedes being saved. And since Paul also equated being made alive with being saved in v.5, we know that faith precedes regeneration.

1 John 5: 1

" Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well."

The word "believes" here is actually a present participle, and as such, present participles occur at the same time as the action of the verb, which is "born of God". So this verse would indicate that believing and bieng born again occur at the same time. But that doesn't speak to which results in the other. That, I believe, is found by comparing Eph 2:5 and 2:8, as explained above.

1 Cor 12: 3.

"Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit."

This verse doesn't address any order between regeneration and faith. In fact, it doesn't even speak of regeneration.

@FreeGrace2, the hard of heart remain as such until God intercedes. There is NO other way that man can reach the point of faith until God has made that man capable. If faith is a gift from God, how can man choose God without this gift? That is the teaching of the "T" in TULIP.

And I don't find this teaching in Scripture.

First, God has already interceded. He did so by creating mankind with a conscience (Rom 2:14,15). This is what gives mankind the knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, because of the conscience, man IS able to choose the good and reject the evil. Not that he will, necessarily. But that he can.

And there are no verses that say that faith is a gift, if by 'faith' one means the verb action of believing. Eph 2:8 doesn't say that faith is a gift. The verse says "it is a gift of God". The "it" refers back to salvation.

Rom 6:23 says that eternal life, which is salvation, a gift of God. And the Holy Spirit is called a gift of God in a number of passages. But the act of believing is not described as a gift.

 

[Jack Terrence]

However, the next verse explains exactly who is drawn to Jesus:
"It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

So, we learn that God has taught (Rom 1:19,20) everyone (all), but only those who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus.

Wrong as usual. Jesus cited a verse from Isaiah which is speaking about the children of the Bride. It is the children of the Bride which are taught, not all men. Try again.

Like the example of Cornelius in Acts 10.

Cornelius was already saved. So the narrative regarding Cornelius cannot be used to support a particular view. We are explicitly told that he was a "just man." A just man is a justified man (Romans 1:16-17). Peter was sent to Cornelius so he and his house could receive the Holy Spirit as a testimony to the Jews that the Gentiles had been received into the covenant. Peter was NOT sent to bring salvation to Cornelius. I suggest that you look at Acts 11:14 very carefully before you draw an erroneous conclusion and post it in reply.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Wrong as usual. Jesus cited a verse from Isaiah which is speaking about the children of the Bride. It is the children of the Bride which are taught, not all men. Try again.

Since there was no such thing as "Bride of Christ" in the OT, what is the context for the "children of the Bride"? Regardless, John 6:45 explains who will come to Jesus. Only those who listened and learned from the Father. That much is very clear.

Cornelius was already saved.

OK, my turn. Try again. Acts 11:14 is Peter's explanation of his experience with Cornelius, and what Cornelius told him. " He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’"

I believe it is very clear that Cornelius wasn't saved until Peter brought the message that he believed.

So the narrative regarding Cornelius cannot be used to support a particular view. We are explicitly told that he was a "just man."

I believe that Acts 11:14 flatly refutes your view.

A just man is a justified man (Romans 1:16-17).

The comment was in regard to the vision that Peter had on the roof. It was about not viewing Gentiles as lesser than Jews.

Peter was sent to Cornelius so he and his house could receive the Holy Spirit as a testimony to the Jews that the Gentiles had been received into the covenant. Peter was NOT sent to bring salvation to Cornelius.

Acts 11:14 is contrary to your view.

I suggest that you look at Acts 11:14 very carefully before you draw an erroneous conclusion and post it in reply.

Did already. If the verse doesn't mean what it plainly says, please provide some explanation.

 

[GillDouglas]

Since there was no such thing as "Bride of Christ" in the OT, what is the context for the "children of the Bride"? Regardless, John 6:45 explains who will come to Jesus. Only those who listened and learned from the Father. That much is very clear.

How many have heard and learned, yet do not come to Jesus? Why do you think that is? Maybe Eph 4: 18 can explain.

OK, my turn. Try again. Acts 11:14 is Peter's explanation of his experience with Cornelius, and what Cornelius told him. " He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’"

You failed to mention the next verse where the Holy Spirit fell upon them, which precedes Peter's message.

I believe it is very clear that Cornelius wasn't saved until Peter brought the message that he believed.

God saved Cornelius, not Peter.

Did already. If the verse doesn't mean what it plainly says, please provide some explanation.

The words mean nothing without the ability to hear them, truly hear them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How many have heard and learned, yet do not come to Jesus? Why do you think that is? Maybe Eph 4: 18 can explain.

From what Jesus said, all who have listened and learned will come. I don't know why anyone would think otherwise from what He said.

The phrase "listened and learned" indicates paying attention to the "lessons" and believing what is being taught. I see free will in what Jesus said. Not every student listens and learns. Many do not pay attention.

You failed to mention the next verse where the Holy Spirit fell upon them, which precedes Peter's message.

No, the text does not say He fell on them preceding the message.

I said this:
"I believe it is very clear that Cornelius wasn't saved until Peter brought the message that he believed."

God saved Cornelius, not Peter.

Huh? I wasn't referring to Peter needing to be saved. I can't imagine how anyone could come to that idea from my comment. Acts 11:14 is Peter's account of what Cornelius was told by God's angel. And it was Cornelius who needed to be saved.
"He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved." Notice "will be saved". Future.

Then I said this to Boxer:
"If the verse doesn't mean what it plainly says, please provide some explanation."

The words mean nothing without the ability to hear them, truly hear them.

Is this a "suggestion" (judgment) on my inability to understand your explanation? Just remember what the Bible says: "judge not, lest you be judged".

Why not just let God be Judge and go ahead and explain your understanding of Acts 11:14?

 

[MDC]

From what Jesus said, all who have listened and learned will come. I don't know why anyone would think otherwise from what He said.

The phrase "listened and learned" indicates paying attention to the "lessons" and believing what is being taught. I see free will in what Jesus said. Not every student listens and learns. Many do not pay attention.


No, the text does not say He fell on them preceding the message.

I said this:
"I believe it is very clear that Cornelius wasn't saved until Peter brought the message that he believed."

Huh? I wasn't referring to Peter needing to be saved. I can't imagine how anyone could come to that idea from my comment. Acts 11:14 is Peter's account of what Cornelius was told by God's angel. And it was Cornelius who needed to be saved.
"He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved." Notice "will be saved". Future.

Then I said this to Boxer:
"If the verse doesn't mean what it plainly says, please provide some explanation."

Is this a "suggestion" (judgment) on my inability to understand your explanation? Just remember what the Bible says: "judge not, lest you be judged".

Why not just let God be Judge and go ahead and explain your understanding of Acts 11:14?

No, those whom the Father has given Christ WILL come (faith).. Those whom the Father has given Christ are taught, drawn, and it is granted unto them to learn of their Savior. It is the Spirit that gives life. As Lydias heart was opened by God to receive understanding in Acts 16. You just refuse to believe Gods Word that all of salvation is by sovereign grace. It is God who grants repentance 2 Timothy 2:25. So unless the Lord may be merciful to you and grants you repentance to submit to Christ and His righteousness alone, you will continue to believe synergistic works righteousness that further hardens yourself towards God and His gospel

 

[Jack Terrence]

Since there was no such thing as "Bride of Christ" in the OT, what is the context for the "children of the Bride"? Regardless, John 6:45 explains who will come to Jesus. Only those who listened and learned from the Father. That much is very clear.

Read Isaiah 54. The prophet is addressing God's Wife which was barren. God's Wife was the remnant of Israel. Isaiah 54 is about the remnant of Israel. God promised his barren Wife that she would bear children for him. Then God said that all her children would be "taught by the Lord" (verse 13). And yes, only those who will listen will come to Jesus. But that doesn't change the fact that it is the children of the Wife that are taught by the Lord. The children of the Wife are NOT all men. There is not one scintilla of evidence from John 6:45 that all men are taught by the Lord. None whatsoever.

OK, my turn. Try again. Acts 11:14 is Peter's explanation of his experience with Cornelius, and what Cornelius told him. " He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’"

I believe it is very clear that Cornelius wasn't saved until Peter brought the message that he believed.

Cornelius misunderstood what the angel had said to him. That was Peter's point in saying that the Holy Spirit had fallen upon Cornelius and his house before a word had come out of his mouth.

"As I began to speak the Holy Spirit fell on them as on us at the beginning."

Peter assumed that he was sent to bring salvation because that is what Cornelius had told him. But go back to what the angel had actually said (Acts 10:1-6). The angel said NOTHING about salvation at all. Cornelius had misunderstood the angel.

If Peter had been sent to bring salvation, then Cornelius and his house were saved without hearing the word, for the Holy Spirit had fallen upon Cornelius and his house before Peter had spoken a word just as he opened his mouth. This is when Peter too realized the real reason he was sent. He realized that he was sent to impart the Holy Spirit to Gentiles as a testimony to the Jews that the Gentiles were included in the covenant. Note that it says that the Holy Spirit fell upon them "as upon us at the beginning." At the beginning the Holy Spirit fell upon those who were previously believers. So Cornelius and his house were already believers when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. Paul also imparted the Holy Spirit to those who were already believers (Acts 19:2).


The narrative explicitly says that Cornelius was a "just" man (10:22). Therefore, he was a believer. A just man in the new testament is a saved man.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"From what Jesus said, all who have listened and learned will come. I don't know why anyone would think otherwise from what He said.

The phrase "listened and learned" indicates paying attention to the "lessons" and believing what is being taught. I see free will in what Jesus said. Not every student listens and learns. Many do not pay attention."

No, those whom the Father has given Christ WILL come (faith)

And I explained specifically who they are: the listeners and learners. That is what Jesus said.

Those whom the Father has given Christ are taught, drawn, and it is granted unto them to learn of their Savior.

This is not what the verse says. I recommend a more careful reading of v.45.

It is the Spirit that gives life.

No argument.

As Lydias heart was opened by God to receive understanding in Acts 16.

What Acts 16 doesn't say is that God caused Lydia to believe.

You just refuse to believe Gods Word that all of salvation is by sovereign grace.

I've never said otherwise. What I have said is that God DOES NOT cause anyone to believe, which is the foundation of Calvinist doctrine of election.

I have already posted here that salvation is all of God. Which isn't even about man's response to God's grace.

Those who don't have a proper grasp of God's grace will always think that the action of believing, if done freely by man and the basis of God's action of saving that man, is synergistic.

When nothing could be farther from the truth.

It is God who grants repentance 2 Timothy 2:25.

Do you know what that means?

So unless the Lord may be merciful to you and grants you repentance to submit to Christ and His righteousness alone, you will continue to believe synergistic works righteousness that further hardens yourself towards God and His gospel

Where in my theology would one find "synergistic works righteousness"?

Your claim is bogus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Read Isaiah 54. The prophet is addressing God's Wife which was barren. God's Wife was the remnant of Israel. Isaiah 54 is about the remnant of Israel. God promised his barren Wife that she would bear children for him. Then God said that all her children would be "taught by the Lord" (verse 13). And yes, only those who will listen will come to Jesus.

Well, thank you for noticing!

But that doesn't change the fact that it is the children of the Wife that are taught by the Lord. The children of the Wife are NOT all men. There is not one scintilla of evidence from John 6:45 that all men are taught by the Lord. None whatsoever.

If one wants to argue that the "children of the Wife" are only the "elect" then, then NO GENTILE can be elect. Give me a break! And you have a problem with John 1:8-11 -
8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Who are "His own" if not Israel? The text is clear; His own did not receive Him. Yet, v.9 says He gives light TO EVERYONE. Clearly not just "His own".

Cornelius misunderstood what the angel had said to him. That was Peter's point in saying that the Holy Spirit had fallen upon Cornelius and his house before a word had come out of his mouth.

On what basis did you form your opinion about "confused Cornelius"? There is NOTHING from the context to suggest any such thing.

"As I began to speak the Holy Spirit fell on them as on us at the beginning."

First, let's examine what Luke wrote about the actual event in 10:44 - While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

iow, Peter was preaching the gospel and the people believed what he was saying.

Second, though it seems you'd rather the verse to mean that the Holy Spirit came on them BEFORE Peter spoke, the meaning indicates that the Holy Spirit came on them during the first part of his speech or sermon, rather than at the end or last part of the speech or sermon. That's clear when 10:44 is considered.

Peter assumed that he was sent to bring salvation because that is what Cornelius had told him.

There is nothing in the text to assume that Peter assumed anything. Cornelius told him what the angel of God told Cornelius. Which is recorded in 11:14, the verse you haven't addressed.

But go back to what the angel had actually said (Acts 10:1-6). The angel said NOTHING about salvation at all. Cornelius had misunderstood the angel.

No, Luke simply didn't record EVERYTHING the angel said in ch 10. But Peter's recounting of the event includes other things the angel said.

If Peter had been sent to bring salvation, then Cornelius and his house were saved without hearing the word, for the Holy Spirit had fallen upon Cornelius and his house before Peter had spoken a word just as he opened his mouth.

Alas, the text doesn't say anything close to this.

This is when Peter too realized the real reason he was sent. He realized that he was sent to impart the Holy Spirit to Gentiles as a testimony to the Jews that the Gentiles were included in the covenant.

Please explain the meaning of 11:17 - So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

I'm always intrigued as to why Calvinists continually try to remove the requirement of believing when talking about salvation. It's all just God's choice who to save, which really means (to the Calvinist) who God chooses to believe.

Peter's comment here reveals the order of the receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit; believing. Just as the gift of eternal life is received as a result of believing.

Note that it says that the Holy Spirit fell upon them "as upon us at the beginning." At the beginning the Holy Spirit fell upon those who were previously believers.

Right. They had ALREADY BELIEVED before they received the Holy Spirit.

So Cornelius and his house were already believers when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. Paul also imparted the Holy Spirit to those who were already believers (Acts 19:2).

No, they received the Holy Spirit the SAME WAY the Jews had received the Holy Spirit; "us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ".

The narrative explicitly says that Cornelius was a "just" man (10:22). Therefore, he was a believer. A just man in the new testament is a saved man.

Actually, it was the men Cornelius sent to Peter who described Cornelius as "a righteous and God-fearing man". That is NOT ascribed to what God said.

However, Peter explains what his vision meant in 10:28 - He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean."

So, the vision was teaching Peter that it was wrong of the Jews to look down on Gentiles by refusing to "visit him" (v.28).

So, as for Cornelius being "just", that was from the eyes of his servants, not God.

Acts 11:14 is clear about what the angel told Cornelius. Peter's message was the means of being saved.

He was NOT saved and received the Holy Spirit until he heard and believed the message of Peter.[/QUOTE]

 

[sdowney717]

1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him

John 1
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Since the emphasis of Christ is you must be born again of God first to then enter the kingdom, being born of God precedes your confession of faith. And faith is a gift dealt to all who God has made alive.

were, signifies what is past, John 1 they had been born of God all those who did receive Him, meaning born of God first, then entering the kingdom of God.

[wur; unstressed wer; British also wair]

• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
verb
1.
a 2nd person singular pt. indicative, plural past indicative, and past subjunctiveof be.

 

[Felix.Gov]

@sdowney717
I understand that scripture to mean that salvation is not of human origin or within the realm of the material. Because salvation is spiritual in nature and has its origin in God. I suppose we differ on our interpretation, but in light of your interpretation how do you understand this scripture ?


“but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

It seems to me that this scripture strongly suggests that faith precedes regeneration because you believe and then have life. But you would say that you have to be made alive in order to believe and then according to this scripture you have life after that again. What are your thoughts on this brother?

 

[sdowney717]

@sdowney717
I understand that scripture to mean that salvation is not of human origin or within the realm of the material. Because salvation is spiritual in nature and has its origin in God. I suppose we differ on our interpretation, but in light of your interpretation how do you understand this scripture ?


“but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

It seems to me that this scripture strongly suggests that faith precedes regeneration because you believe and then have life. But you would say that you have to be made alive in order to believe and then according to this scripture you have life after that again. What are your thoughts on this brother?

Sure enough he that believes has eternal life.
Like the question what comes first chicken or the egg?, it was the chicken, a special creation, what comes first with a human being is a new creation.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

IF your faith by which you believe is God's gift, then it came beforehand the gift of your faith by which you then believed in Christ.
Without faith no one can please God.

Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Faith comes through Him.
Acts 3
16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know.
Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

That verse in John 20 is the apostle confirming as a truism, a surety, a guarantee to you that you can know that you have eternal life. Not an order of salvation process idea.

 

[sdowney717]

John 3, the kingdom of God does not come with observation, the kingdom of God is within you.
Notice the wind, you can not see where it is coming or going, people are born of God without observation, by the Holy Spirit blowing upon whomever He wills. There is no physical visual indication or characteristic someone has just been born of God, all is done spiritually by the Holy Spirit.

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[sdowney717]

Faith is according to grace so that the promise of eternal life is made sure to all the 'seed of Abraham', which includes gentiles and jews who are called of God from the dead to have life.

Romans 4:16-17New King James Version (NKJV)

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

The order of salvation begins with God foreknowing certain ones as His own, before their existence. And ends with those He foreknew all being glorified.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[EmSw]

Faith is according to grace so that the promise of eternal life is made sure to all the 'seed of Abraham', which includes gentiles and jews who are called of God from the dead to have life.

Romans 4:16-17New King James Version (NKJV)

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

The order of salvation begins with God foreknowing certain ones as His own, before their existence. And ends with those He foreknew all being glorified.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

There is nothing mentioned about what Jesus said about salvation. Where is keeping the commandments to enter life?

 

[Felix.Gov]

@sdowney717
Well brother that's kind of a shotgun blast what you're doing there, if you don't mind I'd like to stay on one point and one passage at a time because it becomes difficult to have a discussion that way.

So John writes at the end of his gospel saying that the reason he wrote the gospel was so the people might believe, why ? So that they can have life. You can't have life without believeing. It may be simultaneous but certainly believing comes logically prior to having life. Also, the chicken does come before the egg and in this case believing is the chicken. Now it doesn't follow from the analogy that believing is like a special creation, that has to be established aside from the analogy. However I'd like to know what you say to believing being logically prior to having life. Because as I've said before, that would mean that you are regenerates ( have life) then believe and then you have life.

 

[sdowney717]

@sdowney717
Well brother that's kind of a shotgun blast what you're doing there, if you don't mind I'd like to stay on one point and one passage at a time because it becomes difficult to have a discussion that way.

So John writes at the end of his gospel saying that the reason he wrote the gospel was so the people might believe, why ? So that they can have life. You can't have life without believeing. It may be simultaneous but certainly believing comes logically prior to having life. Also, the chicken does come before the egg and in this case believing is the chicken. Now it doesn't follow from the analogy that believing is like a special creation, that has to be established aside from the analogy. However I'd like to know what you say to believing being logically prior to having life. Because as I've said before, that would mean that you are regenerates ( have life) then believe and then you have life.

Why though do they believe?
See with your POV, the golden chain of salvation (Romans 8:30) is broken by man. All God foreknows He saves and those who are not saved, He did not foreknow them so He did not predestine them, and they will never believe.

God has no intention of saving all people. God's purposes can not be thwarted.

 

[sdowney717]

John 6:28
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Does anyone think God fails in His work?


29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Felix.Gov]

@sdowney717
Brother I would love to answer those texts, but if we keep bouncing around we won't be able to have a meaningfull dialogue. The question of "why" some believe is different from "if" that belief is prior to having life as the text says.