A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[FreeGrace2]

Here is the overall point I am driving at. We make choices of our own free will, yet while they are our own, they are also part of a larger situation that we may not understand.

This isn't clear. If our choices are from our own free will, and are therefore our own, how does this "larger situation" have any effect on our own free choices? Please clarify.

 

[bling]

Here is the overall point I am driving at. We make choices of our own free will, yet while they are our own, they are also part of a larger situation that we may not understand. Robots are programmed with every bit of instruction as to what they're able to do and what they're going to do. We are only like robots in the fact that we cannot do things that are beyond our ability. However, we are not given instructions on the choices that we make, those are entirely up to us.

Say you go to a fancy Italian restaurant and you have the choice between pizza and lasagna. You've had pizza already this week, because you love it so much, and you're considering the lasagna instead. However, you decide on the pizza because you haven't eaten the pizza at this particular restaurant. No one has influenced your decision, you made the choice. In making this choice, your life is about to change: You begin a conversation with a beautiful woman who shares your love of pizza, fall in love with her, marry and start a family.

What I propose is this; You would say what if I decided on the lasagna? I would tell you that you wouldn't have because you made the only choice, the right choice, of your own free will. Regardless of the outcome, right or wrong there is only the choice that will project you forward in your individual story. We cannot make choices beyond our ability, or beyond our individual story within the bigger picture. The story is written and the future already decided, yet we still have a part to play as individuals in the grand scheme.

You are not addressing the issue:

1. It does not matter if you select lasagna or pizza which may be controlled by biologically (genes) and environmental factors out of your “free will” ability. Who you marry, how many kids you have, where you live, what job you have are really insignificant, if they are not causing you to sin, compared to your objective.
   
   
2. Most “situations” are really outside of your free will control and are inconsequential as far as salvation is concerned (you can be born disabled, a slave, a eunuch , a gentile, a Jew, man, woman, rich or poor).
   
   
3. If “the story is written and the future already decided” as far as your salvation is concerned than “we still have a part to play as individuals in the grand scheme” is totally insignificant and a waste of time?
   
   
4. I agree “we cannot make choices beyond our ability…”, but just as the prodigal son on his own, was brought to his senses by the situation he got himself into we will be brought to our senses by the situations we get into. At these moments in the pigsty of life we can choose of our own free will, for selfish reasons, to humbly accept God’s charity, but we can also choose to be macho, pay the piper, take the punishment we fully deserve and stay to starve to death in the pigsty.
   
   
5. You say: “we are not given instructions on the choices that we make, those are entirely up to us” but continue and say: “I would tell you that you wouldn't have because you made the only choice, the right choice, of your own free will.” And “right or wrong there is only the choice that will project you forward in your individual story.” Which means what you call “free will choices” are really choices following the script and can only be made one way.
   
   
6. The only truly autonomous “free will choice” mature adults must make is in the humble accepting or rejecting of God’s charity (Love/mercy/grace/forgiveness/help), so does God have the power and Love to allow humans to make this free will choice and thus allow them to become like He is (with Godly type Love)?

 

[GillDouglas]

You are not addressing the issue:

1. It does not matter if you select lasagna or pizza which may be controlled by biologically (genes) and environmental factors out of your “free will” ability. Who you marry, how many kids you have, where you live, what job you have are really insignificant, if they are not causing you to sin, compared to your objective.
   
   
2. Most “situations” are really outside of your free will control and are inconsequential as far as salvation is concerned (you can be born disabled, a slave, a eunuch , a gentile, a Jew, man, woman, rich or poor).
   
   
3. If “the story is written and the future already decided” as far as your salvation is concerned than “we still have a part to play as individuals in the grand scheme” is totally insignificant and a waste of time?
   
   
4. I agree “we cannot make choices beyond our ability…”, but just as the prodigal son on his own, was brought to his senses by the situation he got himself into we will be brought to our senses by the situations we get into. At these moments in the pigsty of life we can choose of our own free will, for selfish reasons, to humbly accept God’s charity, but we can also choose to be macho, pay the piper, take the punishment we fully deserve and stay to starve to death in the pigsty.
   
   
5. You say: “we are not given instructions on the choices that we make, those are entirely up to us” but continue and say: “I would tell you that you wouldn't have because you made the only choice, the right choice, of your own free will.” And “right or wrong there is only the choice that will project you forward in your individual story.” Which means what you call “free will choices” are really choices following the script and can only be made one way.
   
   
6. The only truly autonomous “free will choice” mature adults must make is in the humble accepting or rejecting of God’s charity (Love/mercy/grace/forgiveness/help), so does God have the power and Love to allow humans to make this free will choice and thus allow them to become like He is (with Godly type Love)?

I refer to what James mentions here:

Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

GillDouglas said: ↑
Here is the overall point I am driving at. We make choices of our own free will, yet while they are our own, they are also part of a larger situation that we may not understand.

This isn't clear. If our choices are from our own free will, and are therefore our own, how does this "larger situation" have any effect on our own free choices? Please clarify.

I was hoping for some clarification.

 

[bling]

I refer to what James mentions here:

Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

What is the deciding factor on who receives more and less grace (is it, pride and humbleness)?

Is God wanting to extend the full measure of grace to everyone, but our pride gets in the way?

Not receiving God’s “Grace” goes back to the previous verse: “4….Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” which comes from: “3. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.”

James is also addressing Christians.

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”

This is not addressing eternal life, but human beings on earth making their earthly plans they want to carry out which are all subject to God’s plans H will carry out. Deciding to accept God’s charity is just the opposite of making earthly plans for you to workout in this world. The decision to surrender to God is the opposite of, planning what you are going to do.

 

[rnmomof7]

Adam and Eve were created innocent, not "sinless" nor "depraved" .. The fall was ordained by God before the creation of the earth... Like all things it was ordained to give Him glory...which is the purpose of all creation and events..

 

[rnmomof7]

Men will always choose their preference ..it is God that created those preferences

 

[rnmomof7]

Agreed.


There are no uses of the 3 Greek words translated "elect/election" (eklectos-adjective, eklegomai-verb, ekloge-noun) for being elected or chosen for salvation. The only verse that says anyone is "chosen for salvation" is found in 2 Thess 2:13, but the Greek word isn't even related to any of the 3 just noted.

It is 'haireomai', and simply points to the fact that God does the choosing of who He will save. And the Bible actually tells us directly who He chooses to save: believers.
1 Cor 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe

The issue of election is that those so elected have been elected or chosen for service.

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: " It is always (with one exception, Rom 9:11; see below) related to a community, and thus has close affinity with the Old Testament teachings upon the privileged position of Israel as the chosen, selected race (see under ELECT ). The objects of election in the New Testament are, in effect, the Israel of God, the new, regenerate race called to special privilege and special service."

There are at least 6 different categories of who has been elected as revealed in Scripture:
Categories of Divine Election
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless] 1 Peter 2:9

1. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16

6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

None of these categories were chosen for salvation, but for service to God.

So, election is not about being chosen for salvation, but being chosen for service to God, which even included Judas the betrayer. John 6:70


The problem here is that there are 3 very clear verses about who Christ died for:
2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Calvinists believe that everyone is born spiritually dead, which is the last part of v.14 "therefore all died". But for no good reason, Calvinists simply don't believe that He died for everyone.

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12
On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:1
The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6
You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

If Christ died for just the elect, then reformed theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.


There are no verses that show God being the cause of anyone coming to faith. This doctrine of "irresistible grace" is simply the way Calvinists must see how God operates in order to believe that Christ only died for the elect.


I don't see anything here about either "perseverance of the saints" or "preservation of the saints". It seems Calvin's 5th point can be taken either way.

I am rock solid on eternal security, or OSAS, as some refer to it. But I don't believe that all saints will persevere in the faith because the Bible clearly says that not all will.

Jesus gave us an example of the second soil, who "believed for a while and in time of temptation fell away" in Luke 8:13. And Paul told Timothy that in "later times, some will abandon the faith". 1 Tim 4:1

And there are verses where believers were encouraged to remain true to the faith (Acts 11:23 and 14:22).

And, just to be clear, I am not Arminiain. Their doctrine of conditional security is imo heresy and greatly diminishes the work of Christ on the cross.

This post just has way too much material in it...

Could you pare it down to a couple verses at a time with one question?

 

[FreeGrace2]

This post just has way too much material in it...

Could you pare it down to a couple verses at a time with one question?

I didn't post to ask questions. There were only 2 actual points to consider:
1. election is being chosen for service
2. Christ died for everyone

I provided support from Scripture for both points.

One can address each point or one at a time, if there is any disagreement. Your choice.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I refer to what James mentions here:

Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”

James also ties in with Ephesians 2.10: 'For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'

 

[Butch5]

Exactly what condition did the fall (Our forefather's disobedience toward God in eating of the forbidden fruit) bring mankind? The fall brought mankind into an inherent condition of sin and misery. That all of mankind, on that day, in losing communion with God had been made liable to the miseries of this life, subject to God's wrath, and cursed to death. No man is able to redeem himself, unable to maintain the law with each transgression in thought, word or deed. This is the depravity each of us is born into, totally unable to span the distance between God and man on our own.

Did God leave ALL of mankind to endure alone under the curse brought upon by Adam, to suffer and perish in an inescapable state of misery and sin? No. Out of His mere good pleasure He established a covenant of grace and at the point of creation elected some to everlasting life in order to deliver them out of the current condition and into salvation by way of a Redeemer. These elect, who belong to the Christ, are given to Him by the Father not because of any merit in them or choices made by them but by the sovereign grace and mercy of the Creator only. This is the unconditional election of Christ's people.

By what means are Christ's people made partakers of this salvation? By the effectual application of the redemption by the Holy Spirit, the righteousness purchased by Christ's sacrifice. In this application, we are convinced of our sin and misery and enlightened in our knowledge of Christ. We are persuaded and enabled then to embrace Jesus as it is freely offered to us in the gospel. This event at any given point in time occurs for some, also does not occur for others. This is the limited atonement in that Christ died for ALL of His people.

Can the application of Christ's redemption and His saving grace be denied? From birth all do resist, and the hard of heart persist until the appointed time where one is transformed by the Holy Spirit. Would the lifelong and stalwart Atheist suddenly change his tune of his own free will and, having all his life's work discounting the existence of God undone, choose such a path? Why would he not remain hard of heart, like so many others? Only the Spirit of God can affect this realm of men, that is the spiritual one, by making everyday events, including the reading and preaching of the Gospel, effectual to one's salvation. This personal experience, while unique in respect to the individual's circumstances surrounding the event, is for each an irresistible and irreversible change.

What benefit does a person gain by this life changing event? We must first remind the reader that the decrees of God are eternal according to His will. All that He has put into motion, the means and the end, will come to pass. Those called partake of justification, adoption and sanctification. Justification being the pardon of all sins and acceptance as righteous by way Christ's righteousness. Adoption being received into the number and rights of the sons of God. Sanctification being the continual renewal where we are enable more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness. This is the preservation of Christ's people, enabled to endure this life's challenges with guidance of our Helper, in order that way may glorify God.

That's Calvinism, not Scripture.

 

[MDC]

That's Calvinism, not Scripture.

"Calvinism" is scriptural

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Calvinism" is scriptural

Please address the points in post #6 then. Thanks.

 

[Butch5]

"Calvinism" is scriptural

No it's not. It's a theological system that takes passages of Scripture from their context in an effort to prove the system is true.

 

[MDC]

No it's not. It's a theological system that takes passages of Scripture from their context in an effort to prove the system is true.

No I believe you are mistaken for the humanistic Arminian way of seeing soteriology

 

[Butch5]

No I believe you are mistaken for the humanistic Arminian way of seeing soteriology

I'm not a humanist nor am I an Arminian. However, the premise of Reformed theology is that all men are totally depraved. This idea is nowhere taught in Scripture. So, it's starting with a flawed premise.

 

[MDC]

I'm not a humanist nor am I an Arminian. However, the premise of Reformed theology is that all men are totally depraved. This idea is nowhere taught in Scripture. So, it's starting with a flawed premise.

Then please tell me how you see these doctrines that relate to the soteriology of man according to scripture if you deny being an Arminian? Mans emotions, mind, and will is enslaved by sin. Man in his entirety is corrupt and dead spiritually by his sin. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Cor 2:14..

 

[Butch5]

Then please tell me how you see these doctrines that relate to the soteriology of man according to scripture if you deny being an Arminian? Mans emotions, mind, and will is enslaved by sin. Man in his entirety is corrupt and dead spiritually by his sin.

That's an opinion, not what Scripture says.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Cor 2:14..

This passage does say anything about man being totally depraved.

 

[MDC]

That's an opinion, not what Scripture says.



This passage does say anything about man being totally depraved.

No that's scriptural.. And what you reason in your mind, is your opinion. That scripture speaks of the natural mans INABILITY to know the things of the Spirit. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Ephesians 2:1-3. As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God... There is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:10-12. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8:7-8. So please tell me how man, in his natural state, isn't completely corrupted? And I'm pretty sure you hold to the pagan concept of the autonomous "free" will. And there is some good in man to "choose" Christ, as the pelagians teach. Since you won't give your thoughts on this topic

 

[Butch5]

No that's scriptural.. And what you reason in your mind, is your opinion. That scripture speaks of the natural mans INABILITY to know the things of the Spirit. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Ephesians 2:1-3. As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God... There is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:10-12. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8:7-8. So please tell me how man, in his natural state, isn't completely corrupted? And I'm pretty sure you hold to the pagan concept of the autonomous "free" will. And there is some good in man to "choose" Christ, as the pelagians teach. Since you won't give your thoughts on this topic

You're just proving my point. I said in the beginning that it's a thological system that uses passages of Scripture out of context to try to prove the system. That's just what you've done here. None of this says that man is totally depraved. You simply infered that from taking pastages out of the context and interpreting them in a vacuum. What you've claimed isnt Scriptural you're just misunderstanding those passages because they're out of context