A question to protestants

[helmut]

Yes, I know that, it's just----why change anything at all? Or is it to minimize that there are images and they pray to them---and please spare me the age old thing about--no we don't pray to them they are just symbols

The point is, that the command does not only speaking about praying to images, but also of prostrating before them. In our culture, this would be kneeling before them, in another context even bowing down. Whether with prayers or not, is secondary.

 

[GingerBeer]

Hi. I grew up in a Catholic family, lived an atheist life of sin and returned to God through Catholicism. I knew nothing about other denominations.
My big issue was with Marion devotion, my parents being Portuguese are devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. But when I inquired about it in a Catholic forum I was labelled a Protestant.

"What is that?" So I looked into it. I always thought that Catholics where the original religion which held the bible sacred and then the denominations split off with new books, dogmas and doctrines. I was shocked to learn that its the Catholics that have a heap of other stuff besides the bible.

I learnt about "sola scripture" and that the protestants adhere to the bible and so began to wonder if I was even a Catholic anymore or a Protestant now as I believe in sola scripture and not the opportunity for humans to add doctrines to it without any bible foundation.

So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV

Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?

Why did you start to believe sola scriptura?

 

[Not David]

In practice, they ignore it. Images are venerated, like the golden image of JHWH, who brought Israel out of Egypt, at Sinai (Ex 32:4-5).

They don't worship them as gods so nope

 

[Strong in Him]

Weak point. God does not stop everything we wish should be stopped. He did not top the RC church in the about 1000 years bfrom the beginning of their split from the Orthodox church to Luther, to name one example.

No, but if a born again, Spirit filled woman is praying about how she can best serve God, she believes she hears the call to ordination, she asks for confirmation, speaks to and prays with others, has that call tested by the church and then the church agrees that she is called to this; is God not capable of stepping in and saying, "you misheard me; I do not want you to be ordained"?

I can't answer for what groups of Christians did many years ago - I am talking about individual women today, who love God, want to serve him and are trusting in him for guidance. Because this DOES happen. In fact in a number of cases, the women involved seemed to have been horrified by the thought of ordination, and asked God to allow them to do something else. Apart from all the discerning, studying, interviews, exams and so on, who wants to willingly go into a role where they may encounter opposition, abuse and/or claims that they are disobeying God? Only yesterday I heard of a Bishop who was recently out on a boat, met some Christian boaters and said, "I'm looking for somewhere to worship; I can't take communion at ..... church, they had a female minister". Some clergy have left the church they were ordained to and gone to another one - which they may not otherwise have don - simply because they can't, or won't, accept female clergy.
Sure, there may be women who are doing this with mixed motives, or maybe have misheard God's call; that may be true for men too. Hundreds of years ago, men seemed to go into the church simply to follow in their father's footsteps or because it was expected of them; there wasn't half the self examination, selection and testing that there is now. It may be that, even today, there are male clergy who had various motives for ordination - does that mean they shouldn't be there and their whole ministry has been based on a mistake?

Namely, Jeremiah.

Yes, I know.
But they didn't go to him, they went to Huldah - deliberately.

 

[Strong in Him]

You forgot to mention Junia, who was an Apostle (Rom 16:7), and Priska (affectionately called Priscilla in a number of verses), who taught (together with her husband) the evangelist Apollos some important lessons on baptism and the Holy Spirit (Acts 18:26).
This means that apostleship and teaching men is not entirely forbidden for women.

Exactly. So when people quote 1 Timothy 2:12, seek to apply it literally and say that it prohibits women from being ordained, or preachers; that interpretation is not borne out elsewhere in Scripture.

 

[prodromos]

Exactly. So when people quote 1 Timothy 2:12, seek to apply it literally and say that it prohibits women from being ordained, or preachers; that interpretation is not borne out elsewhere in Scripture.

I'm not entirely sure how a woman can be the husband of one wife

 

[helmut]

Why did you start to believe sola scriptura?

What other options do disciples of Christ and the Apostles have?
Mt 15:6 ... So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.
7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."
John 10:35 —and Scripture cannot be broken—
Acts 22:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets
1.Cor 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written

 

[helmut]

They don't worship them as gods so nope

The commandment mentions not only worshiping as God, but also prostrating - which is in our culture kneeling, and in other context bowing down. So whether they worship them as God is a secondary question.

 

[helmut]

I'm not entirely sure how a woman can be the husband of one wife

Male leaders were the usual case, whether in Hellenistic associations (where the word "overseer" stems from) or in Jewish synagogues (where the word "elders stems from). But with a minimum of sound thinking you can apply this requirement to a woman: She should be wife of one man.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm not entirely sure how a woman can be the husband of one wife

She can't. But female deacons wasn't the norm, or maybe possible, in those days - it doesn't mean it can't be now.
Jesus said that a man shouldn't divorce his wife; he said nothing about a woman divorcing her husband. Does that mean he allowed us to? No, in those days women couldn't divorce their husbands - they had no rights - so there was no point in forbidding them to.

 

[helmut]

No, but if ... is God not capable of stepping in

He certainly is capable, but He may choose not to step in. As history shows, He doesn't step in every time we are inclined to think He should do. He surely has reasons for that, some are mentioned or hinted at in Scripture, others may totally unknown to us.
I think the women you spoke of are called by God, but this is not the same as to think there is a proof this is so which everyone will have to accept on logical grounds.

 

[helmut]

She can't. But female deacons wasn't the norm, or maybe possible, in those days - it doesn't mean it can't be now.

1.Tim 2:11 mentions female deacons. The interpretations that their wives are meant is rather weak. So we have female deacons in general (1.Tm 2:11) and a specific example of them (Rm 16:1).

Jesus said that a man shouldn't divorce his wife; he said nothing about a woman divorcing her husband.

Well, he did say something about that:
Mk 10:11 And he said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her,
12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”
The verses you thought about are suited to the then Jewish culture, where a woman had no opportunity to divorce herself or to act against being divorced: So while it is adultery when she marries again, it is not her fault (she needs a husband to survive), it is the fault of the man that divorced her, he has to be blamed for her adultery.
Mk 10:11 is aimed at the Roman situation, where a woman could divorce here husband legally. And I am quite sure that every hearer with some brain perceived that Jesus hinted at a famous case: Herodias divorcing her husband in order to marry Herodes Antipas. If she ever heard about this, she would certainly being not amused that there was some who repeated the accusation of John the Baptist. No wonder Herodes Antipas believed Jesus was John resurrected.

The only question one might raise is whether these words are meant for people divorcing in order to marry another partner, or whether they also apply if one divorced marries after a long time. Here the issue of "hard hearts" (cf. Mk 10:5) and what Paul says in 1.Cor 7 should be taken into account. Christians are divided what this means in the end, we have to live with the fact that not everyone has the same knowledge, we should not condemn another in that matter.

 

[abarbuckle]

How on earth can they possible twist that passage, it's so clear.

Please tell me which churches have not buckled. What's Orthodox like?.
I've only started to learn about all these denominations and their differences and its becoming so overwhelmingly confusing.

I had this same issue... and through prayer, the Lord told me to go back to His church. So I went back to Eastern Orthodoxy. I have found it to be a place of solace. I would recommend that you pray and seek with an open and devout heart. The Lord will guide you to where He wants you.

 

[Albion]

You don't say what you are referring to. Do you want to say that denying women the possibility to serve as a church leader flies in the face of a number of NT verses?

I was addressing the idea that any concept of leadership in the church, any hierarchy, any distinction between laity and clergy, etc. is bogus.

It's impossible to reconcile such an argument with the New Testament.

 

[Albion]

1.Tim 2:11 mentions female deacons.

What you are saying is that the same word is used for both deacons and deaconesses, not that there are female deacons. And the proof of this is found in how the first churches separated the duties of the two.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Hi. I grew up in a Catholic family, lived an atheist life of sin and returned to God through Catholicism. I knew nothing about other denominations.
My big issue was with Marion devotion, my parents being Portuguese are devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. But when I inquired about it in a Catholic forum I was labelled a Protestant.

"What is that?" So I looked into it. I always thought that Catholics where the original religion which held the bible sacred and then the denominations split off with new books, dogmas and doctrines. I was shocked to learn that its the Catholics that have a heap of other stuff besides the bible.

I learnt about "sola scripture" and that the protestants adhere to the bible and so began to wonder if I was even a Catholic anymore or a Protestant now as I believe in sola scripture and not the opportunity for humans to add doctrines to it without any bible foundation.

So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV

Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?

It goes like this. Just like some Catholic churches teach various different things and have different interpretations of scripture, we protestants teach various different things and have different interpretations of scripture. But don't let the minority of Protestants prevent you from joining or considering our Church because the vast majority of us do not believe that women should be pastors.

A vast majority of Protestants believe what Luther believed when he founded Protestantism back in the 1500's. The doctrine of Faith alone, Sola Scriptura, Eternal Security, That we are not saved by our Baptism or Participation in the Sacrements ...etc. We (Just like Luther) believe that all of these main points of Protestantism are both biblical and taught throughout the Bible both Old and New.

I agree with you that women should not be pastors but not every Protestant (Or Christian for that matter) will agree with me. It's been a belief in Christianity since pretty much the beginning of the Christian church. But, with the changing times of history as Christ's return is getting closer and closer Christians are starting to go away from God's word by believing that many things condemened by the Christian church in the past are "okay" now because the times have changed. This is a lie straight from Satan. God's word has never changed ever since God spoke it to Moses. The law didn't change and Christ didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it. Not just Protestants but Catholics and the Greek Orthodox church as well.

For example, my mother is stuck in a Catholic church where the preacher says that we don't need to accept Jesus to be saved. That when we die all we have to do is ask Jesus for forgiveness and he will give it to us because God is love. She's also being brainwashed into believing that we are saved by our works despite Paul quite clearly teaching that this isn't the case. My mom has probably never picked up a Bible in her life yet she's carried the label "Christian" her entire life. All of this is of course, just not true and had her priest (or my mom) actually picked up a Bible for themselves they would see that that, just isn't the case.

But the mainstream belief of Catholicism believes in the same things we Protestants do. That we are saved by faith in Christ, that we are not saved by our works ...etc. They just don't accept many of our beliefs as scriptural and Catholics and Protestants have been fighting and debating for over 5 centuries on what the Bible says and does not say.

So just like there are "bad" Catholic churches that preach against God's word and there are "bad" Protestant ones too. Any church denomination really. It's up to you and up to God to decide what denomination is right for you. Just because I believe that mainstream Protestants have the right interpretations of scripture doesn't mean that others don't have the right to disagree with me and I'm open to being wrong and having great debating discussions with my fellow Christians.

Anyway, I'm glad you're considering Protestantism but don't let the minority convince you into not joining. The mass majority of us believe what it says in scripture and believe that God's word has never changed and never will.

 

[All4Christ]

Catholics only.

What do you mean about Catholics only? The Orthodox Church isn’t composed of Catholics, unless you are referencing the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” from the creed.

To the OP, if you want to understand what Orthodoxy is, please feel free to stop by the congregational forum The Ancient Way. While it has many similarities to Catholicism, it is not the same. We have some significant doctrinal differences besides just the pope, such as disagreeing with the immaculate conception.

We don’t hold to Sola Scriptura, but we also don’t believe there is a second stream of authority. Scripture is the center of Holy Tradition. That said, nothing can contradict scripture, but even scripture teaches that we should hold firm to more than just scripture.

 

[~Zao~]

What do you mean about Catholics only? The Orthodox Church isn’t composed of Catholics, unless you are referencing the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” from the creed.

To the OP, if you want to understand what Orthodoxy is, please feel free to stop by the congregational forum The Ancient Way. While it has many similarities to Catholicism, it is not the same. We have some significant doctrinal differences besides just the pope, such as disagreeing with the immaculate conception.

We don’t hold to Sola Scriptura, but we also don’t believe there is a second stream of authority. Scripture is the center of Holy Tradition. That said, nothing can contradict scripture, but even scripture teaches that we should hold firm to more than just scripture.

Catholics only are entrenched in killing women’s voices still. But if you say that Eastern Orthodox do the same also ... if you’ll take notice that is what the bash thread is about.

 

[Albion]

Catholics only are entrenched in killing women’s voices still. But if you say that Eastern Orthodox do the same also ... if you’ll take notice that is what the bash thread is about.

Uh, there are many denominations that do not ordain women. Many if not most of them do give women leadership roles other than as clergy, however.

So that's just something to keep in mind, whichever way any of us thinks is the right way to go.

 

[~Zao~]

Uh, there are many denominations that do not ordain women. Many if not most of them do give women leadership roles other than as clergy, however.

So that's just something to keep in mind, whichever way any of us thinks is the right way to go.

I have you on ignore.