Hi. I grew up in a Catholic family, lived an atheist life of sin and returned to God through Catholicism. I knew nothing about other denominations.
My big issue was with Marion devotion, my parents being Portuguese are devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. But when I inquired about it in a Catholic forum I was labelled a Protestant.
"What is that?" So I looked into it. I always thought that Catholics where the original religion which held the bible sacred and then the denominations split off with new books, dogmas and doctrines. I was shocked to learn that its the Catholics that have a heap of other stuff besides the bible.
I learnt about "sola scripture" and that the protestants adhere to the bible and so began to wonder if I was even a Catholic anymore or a Protestant now as I believe in sola scripture and not the opportunity for humans to add doctrines to it without any bible foundation.
So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV
Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?
There isn't one protestant church and so you'll get varying views on this issue. I oppose women serving in positions of leadership in the church (elder, deacon etc.) 1 Tim is quite clear on the matter and so are the various discussions of the qualifications for elders and deacons. A pastor is a teaching elder and is subject to the qualifications of an elder which means women can never serve in that roll.Hi. I grew up in a Catholic family, lived an atheist life of sin and returned to God through Catholicism. I knew nothing about other denominations.
My big issue was with Marion devotion, my parents being Portuguese are devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. But when I inquired about it in a Catholic forum I was labelled a Protestant.
"What is that?" So I looked into it. I always thought that Catholics where the original religion which held the bible sacred and then the denominations split off with new books, dogmas and doctrines. I was shocked to learn that its the Catholics that have a heap of other stuff besides the bible.
I learnt about "sola scripture" and that the protestants adhere to the bible and so began to wonder if I was even a Catholic anymore or a Protestant now as I believe in sola scripture and not the opportunity for humans to add doctrines to it without any bible foundation.
So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV
Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?
Yet the verse in James overrules the idea that confession breaks the mediation of God and man."there is ONE mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5
"if he were on earth today - He (Christ) would not be a priest at all" Hebrews 8
Which are statements about the entire congregation not about one person serving as priest over the others.
Confessing to a priest is a specific act relying on holy orders, the mark of the soul and many other things that might be easily fit into the OT priestly cast / ministries but does not fir the NT church model according to Hebrews 8 even Christ himself was not a priest on earth. Ad Heb 7 points out - Judah was not in the class of the priesthood.
I oppose women serving in positions of leadership in the church (elder, deacon etc.) 1 Tim is quite clear on the matter and so are the various discussions of the qualifications for elders and deacons.
IA pastor is a teaching elder and is subject to the qualifications of an elder which means women can never serve in that roll.
I would submit that God is not calling women to serve as elders and pastors. What we are seeing today is nothing more than an example of the spiritual and theological declension of the modern church.If you interpret them a certain way, and say "this proves that God can't call women to ordination", then they are clear to you.
But hundreds would disagree, and what God IS doing today is calling women to ordination. This is a fact, and God would not go against his word if he had previously forbidden it - yet those who don't see it that way, will dismiss this and blame the women for being disobedient.
Except they can and do. God is calling women to serve him in this way, and has been for some time.
Deborah was judge over all Israel, and she, Huldah, Miriam, Isaiah's wife and Philip's daughters all prophesied and gave the word of God to men. The early church had deaconesses and Phoebe was a deacon.
Yes, I'm sure you would - that's how you read the few Scriptures that appear to say this.I would submit that God is not calling women to serve as elders and pastors.
What we are seeing today is nothing more than an example of the spiritual and theological declension of the modern church.
Offering a prophacy in the Old Testament does not equal leading men in worship.
As for Phoebe, she wasn't a formal deacon but was rather a servant of the church.
She was likely a widow who was disowned by her Jewish family and as such spent her time in service to the church. That's a far cry from the elected office of deacon.
Each church has its own characteristics, and as you mentioned, Pentecostal churches are no exception, and they are not immune in any way to have people more involved in their brand of churchianity as any other church of whatever denomination....or speaking in tongues or falling down in the aisles or any other such affectations.
However, my point was much more basic or fundamental to the Christian experience than any cheerleading for or against the church one's neighbor attends.
It's a shame, I think, that your comment above started out on the right track but then switched to just a recitation of specific grievances, thereby negating what you had written immediately before it about the church ("made up of all those who are genuinely converted to Christ").
Hi. I grew up in a Catholic family, lived an atheist life of sin and returned to God through Catholicism. I knew nothing about other denominations.
My big issue was with Marion devotion, my parents being Portuguese are devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. But when I inquired about it in a Catholic forum I was labelled a Protestant.
"What is that?" So I looked into it. I always thought that Catholics where the original religion which held the bible sacred and then the denominations split off with new books, dogmas and doctrines. I was shocked to learn that its the Catholics that have a heap of other stuff besides the bible.
I learnt about "sola scripture" and that the protestants adhere to the bible and so began to wonder if I was even a Catholic anymore or a Protestant now as I believe in sola scripture and not the opportunity for humans to add doctrines to it without any bible foundation.
So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV
Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?
You forgot to add the (™)For the true believer
I really hope that what you are saying here is just for effect and not that you actually believe it.I see that my description of what I think is churchianity has struck a bit of a nerve with you, and I would have been surprised if it didn't.
I did not set out to criticise any particular church but to show that many professing Christians make their church their god, and many in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement make their particular big-name preacher or teacher their god.
You don't say what you are referring to. Do you want to say that denying women the possibility to serve as a church leader flies in the face of a number of NT verses?All of that flies in the face of a number of New Testament verses which clearly describe the leadership of the church, names the offices, gives the qualifications, and so on. To have any Christian talk as though none of this is found in scripture is baffling to me.
The problem is, that there is no role of "priest or pastor" in the NT. Instead, there are different roles:Offering a prophacy in the Old Testament does not equal leading men in worship. It does not equal serving in the role of priest or pastor.
You make a distinction that is never made clear in the NT. If it existed in NT times (this may well be the case), there is no evidence for Phoebe being no formal deacon. You declare her no real deacon out of your will, nothing more.As for Phoebe, she wasn't a formal deacon but was rather a servant of the church.
May God bless you in your return to the Holy Catholic faith.Hi. I grew up in a Catholic family, lived an atheist life of sin and returned to God through Catholicism. I knew nothing about other denominations.
My big issue was with Marion devotion, my parents being Portuguese are devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. But when I inquired about it in a Catholic forum I was labelled a Protestant.
"What is that?" So I looked into it. I always thought that Catholics where the original religion which held the bible sacred and then the denominations split off with new books, dogmas and doctrines. I was shocked to learn that its the Catholics that have a heap of other stuff besides the bible.
I learnt about "sola scripture" and that the protestants adhere to the bible and so began to wonder if I was even a Catholic anymore or a Protestant now as I believe in sola scripture and not the opportunity for humans to add doctrines to it without any bible foundation.
So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV
Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?
You forgot to mention Junia, who was an Apostle (Rom 16:7), and Priska (affectionately called Priscilla in a number of verses), who taught (together with her husband) the evangelist Apollos some important lessons on baptism and the Holy Spirit (Acts 18:26).God is calling women to serve him in this way, and has been for some time.
Deborah was judge over all Israel, and she, Huldah, Miriam, Isaiah's wife and Philip's daughters all prophesied and gave the word of God to men. The early church had deaconesses and Phoebe was a deacon.
Weak point. God does not stop everything we wish should be stopped. He did not top the RC church in the about 1000 years bfrom the beginning of their split from the Orthodox church to Luther, to name one example.So God is clearly powerless to stop women standing before a church and saying "God called me to be ordained"; he is unable to lead his sheep in paths of righteousness for his name's sake, Psalms 23:3, and he clearly doesn't mind if his children lie i his name? Or maybe the Holy Spirit isn't able to lead us into all truth after all?
Namely, Jeremiah.In Huldah's case, the male priests chose to go to her for a word from God, when they could have gone to a male prophet.
You talked to a member of an Orthodox Church, which counts the commandments as in the LXX column in the table in Wikipedia (the term "LXX" is somewhat misleading, for there is no numbering in the text, it is just that Greek Orthodox count in that way, other Orthodox churches following them).Then where is it? What wrote with His own hand can not be changed by anyone.
They probably use the same excuses that catholics use to defend having a “mother” church leader. I used to be catholic and many times women went to the podium and spoke.Hi. I grew up in a Catholic family, lived an atheist life of sin and returned to God through Catholicism. I knew nothing about other denominations.
My big issue was with Marion devotion, my parents being Portuguese are devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. But when I inquired about it in a Catholic forum I was labelled a Protestant.
"What is that?" So I looked into it. I always thought that Catholics where the original religion which held the bible sacred and then the denominations split off with new books, dogmas and doctrines. I was shocked to learn that its the Catholics that have a heap of other stuff besides the bible.
I learnt about "sola scripture" and that the protestants adhere to the bible and so began to wonder if I was even a Catholic anymore or a Protestant now as I believe in sola scripture and not the opportunity for humans to add doctrines to it without any bible foundation.
So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV
Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?
You talked to a member of an Orthodox Church, which counts the commandments as in the LXX column in the table in Wikipedia (the term "LXX" is somewhat misleading, for there is no numbering in the text, it is just that Greek Orthodox count in that way, other Orthodox churches following them).
The comparison of "A/C" (catholic) and "L" (Lutheran) is instructive: Both have essentially he same numbering, but their 9th commandment is different. This is due to the fact that Lutherans base their numbering in Ex 20, while Catholics base their numbering on Deut 5. Looking on the differences in text between these two versions of the Dekalogue makes clear there is no real difference, only superficial change in wording (e.g. word order). This means. that the 9th and 10th commandment of Catholics and Lutheran are really one, they have only nine commandments and artificially split the last one into two, which yields to different results because the word order of Ex 20 and Deut 5 is not the same there.
This is almost like the Jews, who speak of "10 words" (a term to be found in the Bible, unlike "10 commandments"), counting the Prologue ("I am he LORD, ...") as the first word, and then 9 commandments (2nd to 10th word).
The Samaritans add a 10th to the 9 commandments: Put the stones with the law engraved on the mountain where the blessing is spoken to the people (Deut 27:12-13) instead on the mountain where the curse is spoken to the people (against Deut 27:1-8) - remember Gal 3:10-12?
As to the reformed and other Protestants, you know how they count.
But is counting in another way the same as skipping?