A question to protestants

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I learnt about "sola scripture" and that the protestants adhere to the bible and so began to wonder if I was even a Catholic anymore or a Protestant now as I believe in sola scripture and not the opportunity for humans to add doctrines to it without any bible foundation.

So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV

Scripture is quite clear on that topic,

Scripture is NOT clear on this topic, that's why there have been so many threads on this over the years. Paul had many female co-workers, there were prophetesses in Israel and the church and Jesus allowed, and chose, women to speak his word.
God calls women to preach and to be ordained.
The problems come when those who interpret Scripture literally say "no he doesn't; you're all deluded/disobedient."
 
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Anguspure

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Hi. I grew up in a Catholic family, lived an atheist life of sin and returned to God through Catholicism. I knew nothing about other denominations.
My big issue was with Marion devotion, my parents being Portuguese are devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. But when I inquired about it in a Catholic forum I was labelled a Protestant.

"What is that?" So I looked into it. I always thought that Catholics where the original religion which held the bible sacred and then the denominations split off with new books, dogmas and doctrines. I was shocked to learn that its the Catholics that have a heap of other stuff besides the bible.

I learnt about "sola scripture" and that the protestants adhere to the bible and so began to wonder if I was even a Catholic anymore or a Protestant now as I believe in sola scripture and not the opportunity for humans to add doctrines to it without any bible foundation.

So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV

Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?
The difference that I found about the RC church (a friend of mine and I discussed it, with a view of converting me at heart, for about 3 years) is the extent and distinction between doctrine and dogma.

Dogma being the Ex-Cathedra statements that are binding on the church member "a truth revealed by God, which the magisterium of the Church declared as binding.", while doctrine is generally held to be true but not binding.

RC dogma includes many articles of faith that are direct derivatives of Scripture and that a logically thinking Protestant could scarcely disagree with but also includes articles such as:
  1. After the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin
  2. Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.
  3. The powers bestowed on the Apostles have descended to the bishops.
  4. According to Christ’s ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Church and for all time.
  5. The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church.
  6. The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra.
  7. In the final decision on doctrines concerning faith and morals the Church is infallible.
  8. It is permissible and profitable to venerate the Saints in Heaven, and to invoke their intercession.
  9. It is permissible and profitable to venerate the relics of the Saints.
  10. The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are truly, really and substantially present in the Eucharist.
  11. Christ becomes present in the Sacrament of the Altar by the transformation of the whole substance of the bread into His Body and the whole substance of the wine into His Blood.
  12. The Body and the Blood of Christ together with His Soul and His Divinity and therefore the Whole Christ are truly present in the Eucharist.
  13. The Holy Mass is a true and proper Sacrifice.
  14. A List Of The Dogmas Of The Catholic Church
None of which of which maybe found in Scripture at least without a considerable amount of extrapolation. Note that as a Roman Catholic these articles of belief are binding and one must believe them or be at serious risk of loosing ones salvation (according to the RC Church at least). Also I note in passing that there is no gender distinction on clergy, apart from the Pope, in dogma.

Generally speaking Protestantism has limited its dogma to the express statements from scripture on beleif in the death and resurrection of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin, and extending to the identity of Jesus as part of the trinity. All else is regarded as doctrine. Not that it is regarded as up for grabs, the many "church splits" (as if Christs body could be divided) that have occurred are evidence that doctrine is strongly held. But that it is generally recognized that the fundamental article of faith rests directly in Jesus himself and no other.

So when we look at the RC church we also find many differences in doctrine between the different areas. For example my friend and his family are staunch Latin Mass people and believe that the maintenance of all that goes with that is the only way the Church should be expressed. Whereas another RC friend of mine is very liberal and open in his ideas and theology (notwithstanding his understanding of dogma that is).

So when we find that a Protestant denomination interprets a section of scripture in one way or another we have to recognize that they are not necessarily being hypocritical against the RC Church because the difficulty lies in the dogma, not the doctrine.
 
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helmut

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No now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV

Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?
Scripture is not as clear as you think. Tradition (including exegesis) is clear, but not the original.

If you look into Rom 16:7, you may find
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Here we have a couple (man and wife), and both are called apostles (not from the twelve, but apostles like Paul). If a woman can be an apostle, why can't she be a pastor (protestant usually avoid speaking of priests in that context)?

When you look into tradition, you will find a name Junias (invented in the 13th century) which allowed to declare Junia(s) as a man and so "solve" the problem of female apostles. But not only is there no instance of the occurrence of "Junias" (iounias in Greek) in the antique, there is also no Greek name that could abbreviated as Junias. The only Greek names starting with Juni- are Junia ans Junios.

This is the most blatant example how the message of the Bible was distorted when it dealt with the role of women in the church, but in virtually every other passage quoted against female pastors etc. there is a more or less severe distortion.

The passage you quoted is close to be an exception of what I said in the previous sentence. Indeed, Paul forbids female teaching, and he bases it on the fact that Adam was the head of Eve (unlike in English, the Greek word for "head" does not mean "boss, leader", it has more to do with more honor, being ahead in a row, or being the last "highlight", and so on). But if you look into the context, you see problems:

1.Tim 2:8 I desire then ...
This reminds of
1.Kor 7:12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord)...
It is therefor legitimate to ask whether this passage is a command from God or from Paul.

The other problem is in V.15:
Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
Saying that a woman is saved by bearing children is contrary to almost everything Paul (and other NT writers) say about being saved!

We therefore have a passage difficult to explain. There was an exceptional situation (some commentators speculate about details, often referring to some sort of "Gnostics") which urged Paul not to allow a woman to preach.
To use such an unclear passage as a leverage to annul clear passages (as, e.g. Gal 3:28) is no sound exegesis, but this was the tradition from the middle ages up to the 20th century.

I see no biblical teaching against female church leaders, so ordination female pastors (or "priests" in Catholic/Anglican churches) is quite compatible with sola scriptura.
 
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helmut

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Humans, as Catholics, have been able to add things, while Protestants, also humans, have been able to add things.
Denying females to serve in the church is a thing added rather early. This addition is not always seen, but it is one.
 
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helmut

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Protestant is the original term for "protesting Catholic"
This is an old interpretation of this term, but in fact it originated in a protestatio - you may compare that with a complaint of unconstitutionality in our times - by the Lutheran imperial estates in April 1529.
Because this happened in Germany, I'm not surprised that Englishmen don't know it :sunglasses::sunglasses:
 
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BobRyan

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Unfortunately, SOME churches have let themselves think that Scripture can be viewed in a different way from how it long has been seen. However, those Protestant churches which do that are not saying that they are adding other sources of guidance to Scripture (as the Catholic churches do); they are instead re-interpreting Scripture--not that that is a good excuse.

In any case, your own objective is to affiliate with a church that has not given into modernism or social relevancy, etc., and there are indeed many which have not.

a good example of compromising church teaching is trying to insert faith in evolutionism as the "new doctrine on origins" as compared to the Bible teaching on origins.

This is not true at all. Churches don't teach science. They teach theology.

The Bible teaches the historic facts of the actions of God .. so when and where and how long for the
virgin birth,
incarnation,
resurrection of Christ,
bodily ascension of Christ into heaven,
the flood,
the 7 day creation week etc.

But the bible does not teach the science of what chemistry, what energy, how was entropy preserved, how man could repeat the act.. etc.

I think we all knew that.

You may find this thread interesting -- 7th day Sabbath of the Bible vs Atheist Evolutionism: polar opposites
 
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Anguspure

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"there is ONE mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5
"if he were on earth today - He (Christ) would not be a priest at all" Hebrews 8
You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5
 
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jannikitty

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The problem I came to have with "Catholicism" was two fold. First, the legalism it stresses and second, the definite slant toward superiority and elitism in that they preach all truth resides in the teachings of Catholicism alone. My choice is a church which bases it's teaching on scripture and especially the gospels..but always includes the whole story (the bible in it's entirety) That being said mainly, "By their fruits you will know them."
 
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BobRyan

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What's wrong with confessing to a priest?

"there is ONE mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5
"if he were on earth today - He (Christ) would not be a priest at all" Hebrews 8

You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5

Which are statements about the entire congregation not about one person serving as priest over the others.

Confessing to a priest is a specific act relying on holy orders, the mark of the soul and many other things that might be easily fit into the OT priestly cast / ministries but does not fir the NT church model according to Hebrews 8 even Christ himself was not a priest on earth. Ad Heb 7 points out - Judah was not in the class of the priesthood.
 
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Albion

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...the true Christian church, that is made up of all those who are genuinely converted to Christ and who put the Person of Christ first in their allegiance and worship before any church, pope, or archbishop.
...or speaking in tongues or falling down in the aisles or any other such affectations.

However, my point was much more basic or fundamental to the Christian experience than any cheerleading for or against the church one's neighbor attends.

It's a shame, I think, that your comment above started out on the right track but then switched to just a recitation of specific grievances, thereby negating what you had written immediately before it about the church ("made up of all those who are genuinely converted to Christ").
 
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Anguspure

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"there is ONE mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5
"if he were on earth today - He (Christ) would not be a priest at all" Hebrews 8



Which are statements about the entire congregation not about one person serving as priest over the others.

Confessing to a priest is a specific act relying on holy orders, the mark of the soul and many other things that might be easily fit into the OT priestly cast / ministries but does not fir the NT church model according to Hebrews 8 even Christ himself was not a priest on earth. Ad Heb 7 points out - Judah was not in the class of the priesthood.
Nevertheless when we confess our sins to one another we confess our sins to a priest.
 
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BobRyan

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Nevertheless when we confess our sins to one another we confess our sins to a priest.

Only in the unorthodox context of "everyone is a priest and so there is no such thing as a sep ministry/annointing/role as priest among believers"
 
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Albion

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What's wrong with confessing to a priest?
Nothing. It's usually only people who do not understand what's going on there who are outraged by the practice.

However, I would certainly not agree with any claim that says confessing to a priest is required or that the act is a sacrament like Baptism or the Lord's Supper.
 
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Anguspure

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Only in the unorthodox context of "everyone is a priest and so there is no such thing as a sep ministry/annointing/role as priest among believers"
I might say that the scripture is Orthodox and that other practices tend towards the apostate, adulterating the orthodox teaching of the Apostles with pagan practice and tradition as they do (and I am not just referring to the Roman Church) but perhaps that is a little to strong.
 
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Albion

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Nevertheless when we confess our sins to one another we confess our sins to a priest.
You are aware, I hope, that when confessing to a priest was mentioned, the meaning was something else. Had the terms pastor, presbyter, or bishop been used instead, what would your reply have been?

The "priesthood of all believers" concept does not mean that church membership is an "equal opportunity" proposition and that we all take turns running the worship service, for instance.
 
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Anguspure

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You are aware, I hope, that when confessing to a priest was mentioned, the meaning was something else. Had the terms pastor, presbyter, or bishop been used instead, what would your reply have been?

The "priesthood of all believers" concept does not mean that church membership is an "equal opportunity" proposition and that we all take turns running the worship service, for instance.
My answer would have been much the same. I am not playing word games here.

Biblically it was the Nicolaitans with all of their pagan practices who distinguished between professional Christians and the laity (from which we get the word), an error that has rendered most of the church as inactive pew warmers.

Every believer who has the Spirit is a Priest in the true meaning of the word (a representative of God) and has a responsibility as such.

That God has gifted and appointed people to serve as Priests in different ways ("There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."), does nothing detract from our responsibility.

We should all take turns running worship. For some our worship is singing and playing instruments, for others it is pastoral care, for others it is working to support the poor, for others it is praying and for others it might be playing a game of rugby. I am a Captain and at the moment my worship is being the best Priestly Captain I know how to be.
 
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