• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A Question to all the Non Protestant High Churches

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,514
8,177
50
The Wild West
✟757,534.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Doctrine in the Orthodox Church is not a popularity contest. Arianism was very popular in the 4th century, but it was false teaching nonetheless.

Indeed so, I agree entirely. Every now and then someone attempts to introduce a heresy, like Sophianism (Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov) and the Orthodox synods react appropriately by declaring it in error. Actually I think the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox communions, in their own ways, have collectively done the best job of preserving the Christian faith from distortion over the centuries, so if one wants to ascertain the validity of a doctrine, the best approach is to look at what the Orthodox bishops have to say. They can be severe, but are a remarkably loving and faithful pastoral leadership.

I also think the combination of monastic celibate bishops with married parish priests has done fantastic things for the Orthodox churches and is the ideal model for polity, provided one has monasteries in which such pastoral leaders can be formed, which of course the Orthodox have in abundance. And these Orthodox monasteries, which I have visited, are remarkable places, where true Christianity can be found splendidly struggling against the evil in the world through unceasing prayer.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,514
8,177
50
The Wild West
✟757,534.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
By the way, before anyone else makes misinformed comments, can we just say in a definite way that the EO and RC do not, according to church doctrine, worship saints or practice idolatry? I am so profoundly tired of people making these false accusations against liturgical Christians, which seem veritably ripped from the pages of a Jack Chick tract, it wearies ones soul, and is also entirely toxic to inter-denominational Christian fellowship, ecumenical reconciliation, and objective religious dialogue based on the truth, being rather the perpetuation of an untruth that is both uncharitable and unfounded.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,680
14,118
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,415,625.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I doubt you got this information from a Catholic.
It wouldn't surprise me if he did, given how poorly chatechised many now former Catholics have shown themselves to be.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,505
28,990
Pacific Northwest
✟811,468.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
You don't have to interpret, the Catholic Catechism states Church teaching:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Which is a very post Vatican II interpretation. And it is precisely that, an interpretation. You are free to believe that here the Magisterium's interpretation is infallible; but let's not pretend as though this isn't an interpretation which it very much is.

Note, however, that I'm not even arguing against this interpretation (neither am I affirming it). I'm merely pointing out that there very much is a matter of interpreting St. Cyprian's statement going on.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Psalm 27

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2020
1,130
541
Uk
✟137,222.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
I heard, I think it was the Catholic teacher Tim Staples or Jimmy Akin, say that only Catholics can know they are in the boat, other Christians swim in the lake hoping they will get to the other side. It sounded a bit like only Catholics are saved for certain, but other Christians may or may not be saved. I don't know if that's the official teaching of the RCC.
Don’t you think all religions think they are the only ‘way’ - (John 14:6) :)
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
13,123
4,644
Eretz
✟377,058.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
This is an honest question to all of the non-Protestant high churches like the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, and any other Church that says they are the One True Apostolic Catholic Church outside of which there is no salvation.

Except the EO never says that. We know where it IS, but we do not know where it isn't...
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
13,123
4,644
Eretz
✟377,058.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
History is full of people rejecting Christ and His Church. The fact that the EO Patriarchs didnt accept the Petrine office is just one example in a long line of disobedience.

Sure we did...he was the Patriarch of Rome. Now he is in schism...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,479
2,671
✟1,039,237.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that there is salvation outside of the EOC. I believe only Roman Catholicism teaches that there is no salvation outside of the RCC.

#118

"The Catholic understanding is that protestants are our brothers and sisters in Christ. All Christians who profess faith in Christ and are properly baptized are Christians. We are put in relationship with Jesus that scripture describes in terms as being members of his body. Different people have different degrees, or forms of incorporations of his body, though... " - Jimmy Akin
 
  • Agree
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

Roy Taylor

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.
Apr 15, 2020
70
40
Harrisburg
Visit site
✟31,766.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
You don't have to interpret, the Catholic Catechism states Church teaching:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
I would guess back in that day there were not many Bibles (The Word, The Truth, Jesus) laying around in tents and castles. And there might not have been one made in the language they spoke. So they depended on the church to teach the Word to them. They had no other source unless God spoke to them personally. Today we all have bibles in the free world to read. The bible also says the temple of God in within us. If we follow Jesus's sayings. Almost all the churches today are filled with doctrines of demons. Clouds without water. No righteousness. And is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. From front back row to front row to the pulpit to the choir. Full of television watching, entertainment seeking, self glorifying people who think that stopping smoking and drinking and swearing is their ticket to heaven but don't talk about slander or gossip or witchcraft or pride or coveting or idolatry or repentance or sanctification or the fear of the Lord. Yes I am preaching to myself too because I am no better than the rest of you.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,226
5,797
Minnesota
✟327,045.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I would guess back in that day there were not many Bibles (The Word, The Truth, Jesus) laying around in tents and castles. And there might not have been one made in the language they spoke. So they depended on the church to teach the Word to them. They had no other source unless God spoke to them personally. Today we all have bibles in the free world to read. The bible also says the temple of God in within us. If we follow Jesus's sayings. Almost all the churches today are filled with doctrines of demons. Clouds without water. No righteousness. And is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. From front back row to front row to the pulpit to the choir. Full of television watching, entertainment seeking, self glorifying people who think that stopping smoking and drinking and swearing is their ticket to heaven but don't talk about slander or gossip or witchcraft or pride or coveting or idolatry or repentance or sanctification or the fear of the Lord. Yes I am preaching to myself too because I am no better than the rest of you.
Until the invention of the printing press Bibles were scarce. A Catholic monastery might have one, maybe two. So monks had to memorize before going out to preach. Also before that time most people
were illiterate.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,514
8,177
50
The Wild West
✟757,534.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Until the invention of the printing press Bibles were scarce. A Catholic monastery might have one, maybe two. So monks had to memorize before going out to preach. Also before that time most people
were illiterate.

Indeed, and even during the periods of time when one could argue the Roman church was having the most problems (in the period around the Great Schism of 1054, and later during 15th and 16th centuries, prior to the substantial improvements made by Pius V), the Roman Catholic Church was still definitely preaching the Gospel. Indeed had the Roman church done as bad a job as some anti-Catholic people allege, Protestantism would not have happened; it must be remembered Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Zwingli and the other Magisterial Reformers were Catholics who simply became frustrated with the church leadership. The first real Protestant, aside from Peter Waldo, whose doctrines we don’t fully understand due to the absorption of the Waldensians into the broader Reformed community, was Jan Hus, who lived in a formerly Eastern Orthodox country forcibly converted to Roman Catholicism, who desired a return to certain EO practices.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,514
8,177
50
The Wild West
✟757,534.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Clouds without water. No righteousness. And is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. From front back row to front row to the pulpit to the choir. Full of television watching, entertainment seeking, self glorifying people who think that stopping smoking and drinking and swearing is their ticket to heaven but don't talk about slander or gossip or witchcraft or pride or coveting or idolatry or repentance or sanctification or the fear of the Lord. Yes I am preaching to myself too because I am no better than the rest of you.

Indeed, none of these problems are specific to the Roman Catholic church, or the Orthodox. Conversely, if you want to find a place where Christians live without television watching, entertainment seeking, self glorifying people, and who generally refrain from drinking, smoking, slander, gossip, witchcraft and pride, a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican*, Lutheran or Methodist monastery is one of the best places to look.

*I am sad because a lack of vocations caused the Episcopalian Mount Cavalry Monastery to close recently; I never had the chance to visit it, but on the other hand vocations in Orthodox and traditionalist RC monasteries are booming (although the mainline RC religious communities are still seeing a lack of vocations; it is the traditionalist communities which are successfully attracting new vocations).
 
Upvote 0

MBM888

Active Member
Jan 29, 2021
25
17
46
Montgomery
✟15,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
By the way, before anyone else makes misinformed comments, can we just say in a definite way that the EO and RC do not, according to church doctrine, worship saints or practice idolatry? I am so profoundly tired of people making these false accusations against liturgical Christians, which seem veritably ripped from the pages of a Jack Chick tract, it wearies ones soul, and is also entirely toxic to inter-denominational Christian fellowship, ecumenical reconciliation, and objective religious dialogue based on the truth, being rather the perpetuation of an untruth that is both uncharitable and unfounded.

For me personally, as a Protestant, it's confusing why I would pray to a saint to talk to God for me, when I can simply talk to God myself. I think that's where the confusion comes in. And if I'm praying to a saint, how is that different from worshipping them? (I feel some folks do worship the saints, but that's another discussion for another time.)
 
  • Winner
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,514
8,177
50
The Wild West
✟757,534.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
For me personally, as a Protestant, it's confusing why I would pray to a saint to talk to God for me, when I can simply talk to God myself. I think that's where the confusion comes in. And if I'm praying to a saint, how is that different from worshipping them? (I feel some folks do worship the saints, but that's another discussion for another time.)

Asking the saints to pray for you is no different from asking someone in your congregation to pray for you, because the saints are alive in Christ, members of the Church Triumphant. It is not worship, because the saints are not adored but merely venerable. God alone, the Holy Trinity, is worthy of adoration.
 
Upvote 0

MBM888

Active Member
Jan 29, 2021
25
17
46
Montgomery
✟15,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Asking the saints to pray for you is no different from asking someone in your congregation to pray for you, because the saints are alive in Christ, members of the Church Triumphant. It is not worship, because the saints are not adored but merely venerable. God alone, the Holy Trinity, is worthy of adoration.

I guess I understand that, kind of. But I don't know where the Bible verses come from to support the idea, and if the saints are "asleep", as the Bible describes, then how can they ask God for anything, or hear any requests?
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I guess I understand that, kind of. But I don't know where the Bible verses come from to support the idea, and if the saints are "asleep", as the Bible describes, then how can they ask God for anything, or hear any requests?
If "soul sleep" is indeed the true condition of all of us following physical death, I guess that they could not ask God for anything. But that POV is very much a minority one among Christians; and the Bible definitely does speak of us being conscious in the spirit world right after we die here on Earth.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,226
5,797
Minnesota
✟327,045.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
For me personally, as a Protestant, it's confusing why I would pray to a saint to talk to God for me, when I can simply talk to God myself. I think that's where the confusion comes in. And if I'm praying to a saint, how is that different from worshipping them? (I feel some folks do worship the saints, but that's another discussion for another time.)
One of our oldest prayers is Psalm 103. We address the angels in Heaven yet we do not give them the worship we give to God. When you ask someone to pray for you that does not man you worship that person (or angel), whether that person is here on earth or here in Heaven.
 
Upvote 0

pescador

Wise old man
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,779
✟498,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Asking the saints to pray for you is no different from asking someone in your congregation to pray for you, because the saints are alive in Christ, members of the Church Triumphant. It is not worship, because the saints are not adored but merely venerable. God alone, the Holy Trinity, is worthy of adoration.

All Christians are saints. In the Bible, there is not a special class of believers called "saints".

Ephesians 4:11-13, "And he himself gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, that is, to build up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God—a mature person, attaining to the measure of Christ’s full stature.

Acts 9:32, "Now as Peter was traveling around from place to place, he also came down to the saints who lived in Lydda.

Acts 9:41, "He gave her his hand and helped her get up. Then he called the saints and widows and presented her alive.

Acts 26:10, "And that is what I did in Jerusalem: Not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons by the authority I received from the chief priests, but I also cast my vote against them when they were sentenced to death."

Romans 8:27, "And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God’s will.

Romans 12:13, "Contribute to the needs of the saints, pursue hospitality.

Romans 15:26, "For Macedonia and Achaia are pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

Ephesians 1:1, "From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints, the faithful in Christ Jesus.

Phillipians 1:1, "From Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and deacons.

Phillipians 4:22, "All the saints greet you, especially those who belong to Caesar’s household.





There are many more references but if you believe God's Word, then "saints" are not a special class of people venerated by their deeds, but all people who have been born into the kingdom of God.
 
Upvote 0