A Question About Signs and Wonders

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No, no, no sorry but what you're trying to do now is a work around from your statement that God only did signs and wonders through the 12 Apostles. I demonstrated God did signs and wonders through Stephen and it even states that's what they were. You say in your name tag you're a Continuist so it's a mystery to me why you even go down that road and say they were only for the Apostles.

No offence but you just can't say well Stephen performed them because he has a relationship with the Apostles. Being an Apostle meant being designated with an authority and if you had to have that for signs and wonders to flow through one then God would never have used Stephen. Not important to prove you wrong on just an academic point but with your point you seek to connect to our day.....that God only worked such things through Apostles.

So I think i see here what you're trying to say. Don't agree with you though. The signs and wonders done by Apostles in the book of Acts they themselves couldn't turn them on an off as if they owned them. It still came by the grace of God through the sovereignty of God but the disciples constantly prayed for such to take place....Acts 4:30 .it's just that God would pick who he would use that they 'd flow out of. Yes most of the time it was through the Apostles but not exclusively.

Also they might have worked through more than just Stephen who wasn't an Apostle and in future times too. The scriptures doesn't say they did or didn't but no proof to say they didn't. As I stated I believe it mentions Stephen in particular for God knew people would someday say he could only work such through Apostles.

God sovereignly decided to enable Stephen to perform signs and wonders. It doesn't follow that He did the same for others who were not Apostles of Christ, and it certainly doesn't follow for modern ministries who self-appoint themselves as apostles or healing ministries. It is clear that those healing ministries who advertise themselves as guaranteed healers, cannot prove even one validated healing through their ministries.

 

[ARBITER01]

Well, the question came up about Stephen performing signs and wonders, so that necessitated doing some more research to find out why. I just repeated what some commentators said about it.

Well,... does that mean that any of those guys are correct in this regard??

If you're going to try and reason things out and specify that no one besides Apostles performed miracles in scripture, well you're going to run up against the problem of Stephen and Phillip being normal lay people doing the same things as those Apostles.

GOD is able to choose Who He wishes to operate through, and He doesn't discriminate and only choose Apostles.

 

[Bobber]

God sovereignly decided to enable Stephen to perform signs and wonders. It doesn't follow that He did the same for others who were not Apostles of Christ,

God's sovereignty allowed everyone to do signs and wonders even the Apostles. If did seem all the disciples were knowledge and believed they could pray for them to be manifested.

And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. Acts 4:30

Now here's something I've just seen looking at this verse. Never seen this before. Notice they recognized that in order to speak the word with boldness, (verse 28) they believed something needed to be a part of their outreach....signs and wonders being done (verse 30) Makes sense....you start functioning in the POWER of God so easy to get BOLD. How can one not be when you're exhibiting forth the power of the world of glory!

So....what about today??? Is the church NOW to be left to be like Samson with his hair cut off? Does not God want us to boldly be able to share the word? If not why not? This therefore speaks loudly to us that God DOES WANT signs and wonders demonstrated in YES our day! To deny such is to unknowingly siding in with the one who wants to keep the saints testimony timid and non convincing and we all know who that is.

and it certainly doesn't follow for modern ministries who self-appoint themselves as apostles or healing ministries.

Everyone has a right to declare they are a salvation ministry! Healing for the physical body is a part of the package of salvation. Isn't sins forgiven the most important thing? Yes. But healing is still a part of the salvation message.

 

[Bobber]

It is clear that those healing ministries who advertise themselves as guaranteed healers, cannot prove even one validated healing through their ministries.

What you're saying is a little bit murky. What do you mean they advertise themselves as guaranteed healers? I think you're engaging in some hyperbole there. I won't back down from saying I believe God has provided healing for you in the redemption. Healing is the atonement. I won't back down from telling people to pray and believe they receive it. Such doesn't mean I should be held accountable for guaranteeing God won't hold healing back from them. Some don't like to hear this but there are genuine check lists one should look to if one's healing didn't come forth. But we are called to teach the people that God has provided for them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well,... does that mean that any of those guys are correct in this regard??

If you're going to try and reason things out and specify that no one besides Apostles performed miracles in scripture, well you're going to run up against the problem of Stephen and Phillip being normal lay people doing the same things as those Apostles.

GOD is able to choose Who He wishes to operate through, and He doesn't discriminate and only choose Apostles.

The reality is that He doesn't seem to be choosing anyone to do the same signs and wonders the Apostles did, these days.

 

[ARBITER01]

The reality is that He doesn't seem to be choosing anyone to do the same signs and wonders the Apostles did, these days.

Now in that regard, you're somewhat correct.

But if you think about it, is it really GOD not choosing or people not wanting more?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God's sovereignty allowed everyone to do signs and wonders even the Apostles. If did seem all the disciples were knowledge and believed they could pray for them to be manifested.

And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. Acts 4:30

Now here's something I've just seen looking at this verse. Never seen this before. Notice they recognized that in order to speak the word with boldness, (verse 28) they believed something needed to be a part of their outreach....signs and wonders being done (verse 30) Makes sense....you start functioning in the POWER of God so easy to get BOLD. How can one not be when you're exhibiting forth the power of the world of glory!

So....what about today??? Is the church NOW to be left to be like Samson with his hair cut off? Does not God want us to boldly be able to share the word? If not why not? This therefore speaks loudly to us that God DOES WANT signs and wonders demonstrated in YES our day! To deny such is to unknowingly siding in with the one who wants to keep the saints testimony timid and non convincing and we all know who that is.

Everyone has a right to declare they are a salvation ministry! Healing for the physical body is a part of the package of salvation. Isn't sins forgiven the most important thing? Yes. But healing is still a part of the salvation message.

As I said to my esteemed friend in my other post, no one these days is performing any of the signs and wonders that Peter, and Paul did, unless you believe that the people who fall down when someone waves his jacket at them are signs and wonders.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Now in that regard, you're somewhat correct.

But if you think about it, is it really GOD not choosing or people not wanting more?

The thing about the sovereignty of God is that He is not dependent on us and what we want or do. Jesus showed this on a number of occasions when He healed people, (the lame man at the pool of Bethseda, and the lepers of whom only one returned to thank Him), who weren't even looking for healing much less had faith to be healed.

I think that God does heal today, but He doesn't do it in the limelight of the prominent big-name conference and tent conferences where the healing evangelist is famous and hero-worshiped. I would say that most modern healing happens within small obscure home meetings, private houses, and small churches, through people whom we have never heard of, and never will. This is because God will never glorify some big headed fellow in a white suit advertising himself as the best thing since sliced bread in the healing ministry.

 

[ARBITER01]

The thing about the sovereignty of God is that He is not dependent on us and what we want or do.

Actually He is.

GOD has chosen to predominantly operate through us, just like Jesus, and for that to happen He needs a holy vessel,..... which leads us to the current problem at hand. People are more worried about other things instead of GOD.

It takes a Smith Wigglesworth, a Maria Woodworth-Etter type to reach that sort of pinnacle with GOD. Someone who is more concerned with drawing close to GOD and His holiness instead of just going to church.

People want revival, GOD wants holiness.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Actually He is.

GOD has chosen to predominantly operate through us, just like Jesus, and for that to happen He needs a holy vessel,..... which leads us to the current problem at hand. People are more worried about other things instead of GOD.

It takes a Smith Wigglesworth, a Maria Woodworth-Etter type to reach that sort of pinnacle with GOD. Someone who is more concerned with drawing close to GOD and His holiness instead of just going to church.

People want revival, GOD wants holiness.

What concerns me about this is still the emphasis on the creature rather than the Creator in terms of when and how God sovereignly uses His power to heal a sick person. I guess it's because I'm a Calvinist in the sense that we are all in the same boat, that in ourselves we deserve nothing but hell, yet God, by His sovereign grace chose us for salvation in Christ. This makes me a grace-based believer, rather than a performance-based one. This shows the difference between Calvinist and Arminian theology. The thing about being a performance-based believer is that one always has to continue striving in his own strength to achieve a level of righteousness so that God can use him to achieve His purposes. But in reality, the required level of righteousness is unobtainable because we have a sinful nature that always gets in the way and trips us up. This is why many with an Arminian theology have problems with self condemnation, disappointment and disillusionment, because they cannot achieve the standard of holiness that they think they have to reach. They are unable to stop trying and just rest in Christ and trust the Lord to work out His will, plans and purposes in and through them.

Smith Wigglesworth and Maria Woodworth-Etter became what they were through God's grace and providence and not because they had any capability above and beyond any normal member of the Christian herd. The Holy Spirit distributes His gifts according to His own will and sovereignty and because we are not our own, we don't have the power of choice to be what we think we should be. There are some vessels of honour, and others of dishonour, and God is the Potter who chooses which is going to be which. So, just because one's calling might be the janitor who cleans toilets and not the famous celebrated healing evangelist, it doesn't mean that he is missing out on God's calling for his life.

We tend to hero worship those ones who seem to be more gifted than the normal believer and think they are somewhat special to God. But the description of the multitude without number dressed in white, worshiping and praising God before His throne as described in the book of Revelation, shows that all of them are the same with none standing out as more prominent than the rest. This shows when we get to glory, we will all be equal before Christ in our fellowship with Him. All earthly fame and status will be left behind in the grave and we will all have our eyes on Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Phillip over in Chapter 8 was one of people in the group that took care of the Hellenist widows alongside Stephen. There are examples in scripture of regular Christians operating in power with GOD. Why wouldn't there be?

The more interesting aspect of Acts 8 is that Phillip could not transfer that power to perform signs and wonders to anyone he wants.

Simon the Sorcerer had to wait until the 12 original apostles arrived before he could request for that.

 

[ARBITER01]

What concerns me about this is still the emphasis on the creature rather than the Creator in terms of when and how God sovereignly uses His power to heal a sick person.

Jesus is our example in this. We are to do HIs works. His words, not mine.

You wonder why GOD is not performing healings and miracles anymore,......... I'm giving you the answers.

 

[Bobber]

I think that God does heal today, but He doesn't do it in the limelight of the prominent big-name conference and tent conferences where the healing evangelist is famous and hero-worshiped.

Oh come on just stop already! Jesus had such meetings himself and multitudes were healed. He also healed many in a small settings too. So what are you saying because someone does have some notoriety which may not be because they exalted themselves but God has used them and many come to know about it that you'd be quick to judge a servant of the Lord and make it seem like they're a fake? I'd suggest you be careful about judging another man's servant.

I would say that most modern healing happens within small obscure home meetings, private houses, and small churches, through people whom we have never heard of, and never will.

Sorry but you DO NOT know that to be the case.

This is because God will never glorify some big headed fellow in a white suit

White suits are not evil. How about stop setting people up into a temptation to judge someone because of the color of their clothes.

 

[Bobber]

What concerns me about this is still the emphasis on the creature rather than the Creator in terms of when and how God sovereignly uses His power to heal a sick person.

God provided healing 2000 years ago. Peter said we WERE healed. What you're implying about nearly all people that preach faith for healing is not true. They don't tell you or demand from God when the manifestation of healing must take place.

This shows the difference between Calvinist and Arminian theology. The thing about being a performance-based believer is that one always has to continue striving in his own strength to achieve a level of righteousness so that God can use him to achieve His purposes.

Nonsense! Armininans or Non Calvinists for the most part (unless they're in church that believes your saved by keeping the golden rule) pretty much nearly all believe our righteousness is based on faith in the blood of Jesus which puts us in the position of being justified in his sight. Please stop making it seem otherwise.

They are unable to stop trying and just rest in Christ and trust the Lord to work out His will, plans and purposes in and through them.

Sorry but you're off yet again . Heb 4:11 says we are to labor to enter that rest. It doesn't just fall on you like ripe cherries off of a tree. There IS a prayer life to develop, a resisting WE DO with the sword of the Spirit and the shield of faith quenching all the fiery darts of the enemy. Eph 6 There's a renewing of the mind that we're called to do Rom 12:1 and a casting down of wrong imaginations. etc, and more things besides. It's not a laboring in the flesh but in the Spirit but IT IS something we're called upon to do.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh come on just stop already! Jesus had such meetings himself and multitudes were healed. He also healed many in a small settings too. So what are you saying because someone does have some notoriety which may not be because they exalted themselves but God has used them and many come to know about it that you'd be quick to judge a servant of the Lord and make it seem like they're a fake? I'd suggest you be careful about judging another man's servant.


Sorry but you DO NOT know that to be the case.

White suits are not evil. How about stop setting people up into a temptation to judge someone because of the color of their clothes.

Todd Bentley, one of the foremost word faith healing preachers was asked by a reporter to provide just three validated healings backed up with medical reports. He couldn't produce them.

It is interesting that Maria Woodworth-Etter had doctors standing by to examine all those who testified to being healed, to make sure that healing had actually taken place. She was a lot more honest than our modern healing preachers.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God provided healing 2000 years ago. Peter said we WERE healed. What you're implying about nearly all people that preach faith for healing is not true. They don't tell you or demand from God when the manifestation of healing must take place.


Nonsense! Armininans or Non Calvinists for the most part (unless they're in church that believes your saved by keeping the golden rule) pretty much nearly all believe our righteousness is based on faith in the blood of Jesus which puts us in the position of being justified in his sight. Please stop making it seem otherwise.

Sorry but you're off yet again . Heb 4:11 says we are to labor to enter that rest. It doesn't just fall on you like ripe cherries off of a tree. There IS a prayer life to develop, a resisting WE DO with the sword of the Spirit and the shield of faith quenching all the fiery darts of the enemy. Eph 6 There's a renewing of the mind that we're called to do Rom 12:1 and a casting down of wrong imaginations. etc, and more things besides. It's not a laboring in the flesh but in the Spirit but IT IS something we're called upon to do.

If you are following the Law to maintain your salvation, then you are not under grace. Period.

 

[Bobber]

It is interesting that Maria Woodworth-Etter had doctors standing by to examine all those who testified to being healed, to make sure that healing had actually taken place. She was a lot more honest than our modern healing preachers.

But you were making light of healings taking place in big meetings. But now you're going a different direction and acknowledging many, many healings have taken place at big meetings.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But you were making light of healings taking place in big meetings. But now you're going a different direction and acknowledging many, many healings have taken place at big meetings.

The problem is that healing of serious medical conditions is not taking place in these meetings. Not one of these big preachers have been able to provide at least one documented validated healing of a serious or life threatening medical condition or disability. Thousands of disappointed hopefuls return home disillusioned from these meetings, and the disgusting part is that the big man didn't even allow these very ill people up on to the stage for healing. The reason is that the big man knows he can't heal these very sick people. Only those with minor headaches and backaches get up there in order to the "slain in the spirit" to deceive the people that the power of God is happening there, when it is mostly hypnotic suggestion. Once the euphoria has worn off, the headache or backache comes back. Todd White through the exposure of his leg lengthen parlour trick shows that he is a fraud; in fact the whole big name healing ministry is a money making fraud and the only ones who benefit are the big name fellows. All the others give their "seed offerings" in the hope of healing, for nothing.

 

[ARBITER01]

Todd Bentley, one of the foremost word faith healing preachers

Lol,.... that's a complete stretch of the truth.

He's never been a faith healer. He's been a fraud, but I don't anyone claiming he is some world-wide known faith healer.

 

[ARBITER01]

The problem is that healing of serious medical conditions is not taking place in these meetings. Not one of these big preachers have been able to provide at least one documented validated healing of a serious or life threatening medical condition or disability. Thousands of disappointed hopefuls return home disillusioned from these meetings, and the disgusting part is that the big man didn't even allow these very ill people up on to the stage for healing. The reason is that the big man knows he can't heal these very sick people. Only those with minor headaches and backaches get up there in order to the "slain in the spirit" to deceive the people that the power of God is happening there, when it is mostly hypnotic suggestion. Once the euphoria has worn off, the headache or backache comes back. Todd White through the exposure of his leg lengthen parlour trick shows that he is a fraud; in fact the whole big name healing ministry is a money making fraud and the only ones who benefit are the big name fellows. All the others give their "seed offerings" in the hope of healing, for nothing.

You and swordsperson sound about the same when you badmouth other Christians.