A Question About Signs and Wonders

[Rose_bud]

Hi there

Signs and wonders exist to demonstrate that the power of Jesus is more powerful than any spiritual force opposed to Him.
Jesus demonstrated this when He performed signs. He walked on water because he was more powerful than the elements, He healed the sick, the lame because He was the Creator. Particularly the miracle of creating eyes from dust and spittle (love that one). He cast out demons to demonstrate His power over them. He was the greater Power.

It is seen in the OT when demonstrating His power by sign and wonders, water to blood, lice, frogs etc. Moses cast his staff to the ground and it became a snake, Pharaoh's magicians did the same... but yet it was Moses' staff that swallowed up theirs. A greater God was at work. The GOD was at work.

I would have to disagree with the OP, the research may not be representative of everything that is happening in the world, especially in countries where the supernatural elements still cause fear. In these countries we are called to share the gospel in word, deed and sign.

People are taught that God is the most powerful being, and they "see" through the working of the Holy Spirit, that God is the more powerful Being. They believe and fear Him. Once this is known the signs are no longer needed, it serves the purpose of glorifying God in the face of those opposed to Him.

For one I believe that Jesus overcame all the spiritual powers at the cross. We know longer have an allegiance to them. This does not mean that they do not exist but that they no longer have authority in our lives.
I agree with you that Christians indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot be possessed by demons, they may be tormented and influenced by demonic powers but not possessed. But knowing this truth and experiencing it as a reality are two different things, which requires patience and prayer.

I'm sorry that your experience with the Pentecostal faith was not a pleasant one. My roots are Pentecostal, so I have this as a reference, but I have learnt that the Pentecostal faith is as limited in their understanding as all other denominations. I have learnt a lot from the Baptist and their love of the Word as opposed to experience. But they too can learn a lot from the zeal and the relationship and understanding that Pentecostals have of the Holy Spirit and how He works in our lives. I disagree with quite a few SDA teachings, but they by far have the most I can learn from when it comes to resting and not striving and trusting. The Nazarene has the most to offer when it comes to living Holy lives and what it means to understand that God is Holy. Even the Catholic faith, I disagree with quite a bit. But yet when it comes to loving the poor and doing for others, they can show me a thing or two.

Much grace to you all as you continue to search for the riches found in HIM. (PS you will find that some of them is found in His people, especially those that differ)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi there

Signs and wonders exist to demonstrate that the power of Jesus is more powerful than any spiritual force opposed to Him.
Jesus demonstrated this when He performed signs. He walked on water because he was more powerful than the elements, He healed the sick, the lame because He was the Creator. Particularly the miracle of creating eyes from dust and spittle (love that one). He cast out demons to demonstrate His power over them. He was the greater Power.

It is seen in the OT when demonstrating His power by sign and wonders, water to blood, lice, frogs etc. Moses cast his staff to the ground and it became a snake, Pharaoh's magicians did the same... but yet it was Moses' staff that swallowed up theirs. A greater God was at work. The GOD was at work.

I would have to disagree with the OP, the research may not be representative of everything that is happening in the world, especially in countries where the supernatural elements still cause fear. In these countries we are called to share the gospel in word, deed and sign.

People are taught that God is the most powerful being, and they "see" through the working of the Holy Spirit, that God is the more powerful Being. They believe and fear Him. Once this is known the signs are no longer needed, it serves the purpose of glorifying God in the face of those opposed to Him.

For one I believe that Jesus overcame all the spiritual powers at the cross. We know longer have an allegiance to them. This does not mean that they do not exist but that they no longer have authority in our lives.
I agree with you that Christians indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot be possessed by demons, they may be tormented and influenced by demonic powers but not possessed. But knowing this truth and experiencing it as a reality are two different things, which requires patience and prayer.

I'm sorry that your experience with the Pentecostal faith was not a pleasant one. My roots are Pentecostal, so I have this as a reference, but I have learnt that the Pentecostal faith is as limited in their understanding as all other denominations. I have learnt a lot from the Baptist and their love of the Word as opposed to experience. But they too can learn a lot from the zeal and the relationship and understanding that Pentecostals have of the Holy Spirit and how He works in our lives. I disagree with quite a few SDA teachings, but they by far have the most I can learn from when it comes to resting and not striving and trusting. The Nazarene has the most to offer when it comes to living Holy lives and what it means to understand that God is Holy. Even the Catholic faith, I disagree with quite a bit. But yet when it comes to loving the poor and doing for others, they can show me a thing or two.

Much grace to you all as you continue to search for the riches found in HIM. (PS you will find that some of them is found in His people, especially those that differ)

The whole purpose of signs and wonders is that people are drawn to Jesus so that they may believe on Him and be saved. John said that at the end of his Gospel. Signs and wonders accompanied Peter and Paul which resulted in people turning from Judaism and paganism to Christ. Maria Wordsworth-Etter's central message was the Gospel of Christ, and the signs and wonders that happened in her ministry confirmed the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross and His resurrection.

But the modern signs and wonders movement has left out the Gospel of Christ. Its purpose is to glorify the preachers and teachers and to draw disciples to themselves instead of Christ. Every book of the New Testament warns of the false prophets with their false signs and wonders, and the current signs and wonders movement is a fulfilment of those warnings.

The problem in the third world concerning signs and wonders is that in many cases the traditional pagan culture has been infused into Christianity, with the witch doctors being given a "christian" badge, and using their occult powers to produce signs and wonders to draw disciples to this type of Christian paganism. It is accepted that these shama and witch doctors do have occult supernatural powers, and these are often mistaken for Christian signs and wonders.

When we see a prominent Charismatic church making incantations involving Gandalf's staff to resist evil spirits, this fusion of pagan and "christian" culture is clearly seen even in a church in the United States. When Paul went to Corinth to found the church there, he didn't mix the Christian Gospel with the local Greek idol worshiping culture. It is interesting to note that when Constantine supported Christianity, he mixed his pagan culture with it, and we see the results of it right up to today in the church that was established during his rule in Rome.

So the modern positive confession word faith movement is also the same - mixed with New Age higher thought influenced on the movement by E W Kenyon and Norman Vincent Peale. This is why the Gospel of Christ is suppressed, because the New Age spirit in that movement is opposed to it.

Signs and wonders in themselves do not save anyone. It is believing in the Gospel of Christ that brings salvation. Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe." The Pharisees saw all the miracles of Jesus but they still wanted to kill Him.

 

[Rose_bud]

The whole purpose of signs and wonders is that people are drawn to Jesus so that they may believe on Him and be saved. John said that at the end of his Gospel. Signs and wonders accompanied Peter and Paul which resulted in people turning from Judaism and paganism to Christ. Maria Wordsworth-Etter's central message was the Gospel of Christ, and the signs and wonders that happened in her ministry confirmed the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross and His resurrection.

But the modern signs and wonders movement has left out the Gospel of Christ. Its purpose is to glorify the preachers and teachers and to draw disciples to themselves instead of Christ. Every book of the New Testament warns of the false prophets with their false signs and wonders, and the current signs and wonders movement is a fulfilment of those warnings.

The problem in the third world concerning signs and wonders is that in many cases the traditional pagan culture has been infused into Christianity, with the witch doctors being given a "christian" badge, and using their occult powers to produce signs and wonders to draw disciples to this type of Christian paganism. It is accepted that these shama and witch doctors do have occult supernatural powers, and these are often mistaken for Christian signs and wonders.

When we see a prominent Charismatic church making incantations involving Gandalf's staff to resist evil spirits, this fusion of pagan and "christian" culture is clearly seen even in a church in the United States. When Paul went to Corinth to found the church there, he didn't mix the Christian Gospel with the local Greek idol worshiping culture. It is interesting to note that when Constantine supported Christianity, he mixed his pagan culture with it, and we see the results of it right up to today in the church that was established during his rule in Rome.

So the modern positive confession word faith movement is also the same - mixed with New Age higher thought influenced on the movement by E W Kenyon and Norman Vincent Peale. This is why the Gospel of Christ is suppressed, because the New Age spirit in that movement is opposed to it.

Signs and wonders in themselves do not save anyone. It is believing in the Gospel of Christ that brings salvation. Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe." The Pharisees saw all the miracles of Jesus but they still wanted to kill Him.

Hi there

Hope you are good.

I have reiterated what signs are wonders are for in previous post, and agreeing with you concerning John's purpose for writing. But from your previous posts it appears as if you believe that signs no longer point people to Jesus, which I disagree with.

I agree it is the gospel of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation.... but what would be your definition of Gospel? For me the demonstration of this good news came with signs and wonders. People experienced this Gospel not just as a spiritual reality but at times as a physical manifestation of power.

I'm from Africa so I'd be able to share quite a bit more information on the state of Christianity and syncretism. You may not be aware, so you are forgiven but the term "pagan" culture is an extremely offensive term when speaking of Africans.

But to deny that good fruit is non existent because you ate some bad ones. Will rob you of a healthy diet... I hope you understand the analogy

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi there

Hope you are good.

I have reiterated what signs are wonders are for in previous post, and agreeing with you concerning John's purpose for writing. But from your previous posts it appears as if you believe that signs no longer point people to Jesus, which I disagree with.

What I said was the word faith signs and wonders movement doesn't point people to Christ, because these ones don't preach the Gospel at all. But where signs and wonders accompany the preaching of the Gospel, they do point to Jesus finished work on the Cross, because that is the focus of the preaching.

I agree it is the gospel of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation.... but what would be your definition of Gospel? For me the demonstration of this good news came with signs and wonders. People experienced this Gospel not just as a spiritual reality but at times as a physical manifestation of power.

The true Gospel of Christ teaches that Jesus bled and died on the Cross as our Substitute, taking the penalty of sin which we deserve, upon Himself, and that He rose from the dead to demonstrate that He has given us eternal life and that when we die, we will be resurrected to glory in the same way He was. Therefore, if we believe, repent and put our trust in Christ, we will be saved.

Signs and wonders were and are optional. The Pharisees saw all the miracles of Jesus, but their hearts were not changed because they did not believe that Jesus was their true Messiah.

I'm from Africa so I'd be able to share quite a bit more information on the state of Christianity and syncretism. You may not be aware, so you are forgiven but the term "pagan" culture is an extremely offensive term when speaking of Africans.

But to deny that good fruit is non existent because you ate some bad ones. Will rob you of a healthy diet... I hope you understand the analogy

I guess instead of "pagan" I should have termed it "traditional religion", which originates out of the traditional culture of the country, be it Africa, Asia, South America or North America. It has been said that Haiti is 30% Catholic but 130% Voodoo. In fact, the Pope has welcomed the leaders of Voodoo as part of the "Christian" culture of the country, and as an important merger of the two religious cultures. I saw a video of a shaman doing a traditional dance (not sure whether it was in Africa or North America), and the violent shaking of his head from side to side looked exactly the same as some in the Bethel and Brownsville churches, and Todd Bentley when he was commissioned by the NAR prophets to his ministry.

In my view, the good fruit is displayed by those Christian groups that make the Gospel of Christ which features His death on the Cross and his Resurrection, without any mixture of traditional religion or New Age in it.

This is why I view the word faith signs and wonders movement, birthed by Kenneth Hagin as bad fruit because of the foundation of New Age occult "higher thought" which were features of his mentors who influenced him, and those who are influenced by Hagin, are corrupted as well. I have doubts whether any of these false prophets and teachers are actually saved.

 

[Guojing]

I explained why Stephen and Philip were able to perform signs and wonders.

If you read the Acts 8 account, Simon was astonished by the signs and miracles performed by Phillip. But he didn't offer money to him to pass him that same power, obviously Phillip could not pass on that same power to anyone else.

Then he encountered Peter and John, who could pass that same power to those who believe. It was then that he offered to pay them for that power.

You can look at it another way. At the present time, have you ever encountered anyone who can do the same signs and miracles, to the same extent as Simon saw Phillip/Peter/John was doing?

That fact that no one is offering these people anything to "pass on that power", shows the difference between what the original 12 had, and what anyone now claim to have.

 

[Guojing]

Hi there

Hope you are good.

I have reiterated what signs are wonders are for in previous post, and agreeing with you concerning John's purpose for writing. But from your previous posts it appears as if you believe that signs no longer point people to Jesus, which I disagree with.

I agree it is the gospel of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation.... but what would be your definition of Gospel? For me the demonstration of this good news came with signs and wonders. People experienced this Gospel not just as a spiritual reality but at times as a physical manifestation of power.

I'm from Africa so I'd be able to share quite a bit more information on the state of Christianity and syncretism. You may not be aware, so you are forgiven but the term "pagan" culture is an extremely offensive term when speaking of Africans.

But to deny that good fruit is non existent because you ate some bad ones. Will rob you of a healthy diet... I hope you understand the analogy

Since Israel was formed at Mount Sinai, sickness and disease was always punishment due to disobedience and unbelief but that was under the Law

Under the Law, God literally promised Israel that if they obey him, they will never fall sick (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

Under the promised kingdom of heaven on Earth, no one in Israel will be maim or sick too (Isaiah 33:24, Psalms 103:1-5).

Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19).

Thus, at the time of Jesus's first coming to Israel, many people in Israel are sick, demon possessed, precisely because they have forsaken that Law covenant. (Luke 13:11, Acts 3:2)

Jesus thus healed all of them to give them a sign that he was indeed their promised Messiah (John 20:30-31, Luke 7:19-23. Luke 4:27).

Acts 10:38 is an especially beautiful summary by Peter to show that
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

But now, God no longer relates to us under the Law (Romans 6:14, 1 Timothy 1:9).

So when we believers are sick nowadays, we can be rest assured that it is not because we have disobeyed God in anyway.

Conversely, if we find ourselves getting better, it is NOT because we are currently doing something that pleases God.

That is what I believe Paul is teaching us now when he shared with us Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and when he gave Timothy common sense advice regarding his frequent stomach ailments.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you read the Acts 8 account, Simon was astonished by the signs and miracles performed by Phillip. But he didn't offer money to him to pass him that same power, obviously Phillip could not pass on that same power to anyone else.

Then he encountered Peter and John, who could pass that same power to those who believe. It was then that he offered to pay them for that power.

You can look at it another way. At the present time, have you ever encountered anyone who can do the same signs and miracles, to the same extent as Simon saw Phillip/Peter/John was doing?

That fact that no one is offering these people anything to "pass on that power", shows the difference between what the original 12 had, and what anyone now claim to have.

That is because there are no Apostles of Christ who can perform signs and wonders. The present signs and wonders movement is just all talk and nothing else.

 

[Rose_bud]

Hi there

What I said was the word faith signs and wonders movement doesn't point people to Christ, because these ones don't preach the Gospel at all. But where signs and wonders accompany the preaching of the Gospel, they do point to Jesus finished work on the Cross, because that is the focus of the preaching.

Glad we agree then, signs and wonders should point us to Jesus.

The true Gospel of Christ teaches that Jesus bled and died on the Cross as our Substitute, taking the penalty of sin which we deserve, upon Himself, and that He rose from the dead to demonstrate that He has given us eternal life and that when we die, we will be resurrected to glory in the same way He was. Therefore, if we believe, repent and put our trust in Christ, we will be saved.

Penal substitution theory... ok

Signs and wonders were and are optional. The Pharisees saw all the miracles of Jesus, but their hearts were not changed because they did not believe that Jesus was their true Messiah

Signs and wonders were the evidence that the kingdom of God had broken in and was never optional..it was part and parcel of the gospel message. A narrow view of sin and its affects, will equate to a very narrow view of the gospel. What did Jesus come to rescue, was it all-inclusive? (maybe that is a discussion for another thread)

I guess instead of "pagan" I should have termed it "traditional religion", which originates out of the traditional culture of the country, be it Africa, Asia, South America or North America. It has been said that Haiti is 30% Catholic but 130% Voodoo. In fact, the Pope has welcomed the leaders of Voodoo as part of the "Christian" culture of the country, and as an important merger of the two religious cultures. I saw a video of a shaman doing a traditional dance (not sure whether it was in Africa or North America), and the violent shaking of his head from side to side looked exactly the same as some in the Bethel and Brownsville churches, and Todd Bentley when he was commissioned by the NAR prophets to his ministry

Yes, that term will suffice. It removes the derogatory thoughts and views of the oppressors, who came in the name of Christianity. I cannot speak for the other countries, I don't have there history. And a quick google search will never be able to capture what happened or happens there. Only God has that omniscient perspective, we have but limited intel.

In my view, the good fruit is displayed by those Christian groups that make the Gospel of Christ which features His death on the Cross and his Resurrection, without any mixture of traditional religion or New Age in it.

On this we agree, diversity and culture is an aspect of what makes us who we are as image bearers, but this should never compromise the good news of the King of Kings.

This is why I view the word faith signs and wonders movement, birthed by Kenneth Hagin as bad fruit because of the foundation of New Age occult "higher thought" which were features of his mentors who influenced him, and those who are influenced by Hagin, are corrupted as well. I have doubts whether any of these false prophets and teachers are actually saved

I cannot say, I've never followed Kenneth Hagin, or listened to his teachings. But ill take your word on it.

 

[Rose_bud]

Since Israel was formed at Mount Sinai, sickness and disease was always punishment due to disobedience and unbelief but that was under the Law

Under the Law, God literally promised Israel that if they obey him, they will never fall sick (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

Under the promised kingdom of heaven on Earth, no one in Israel will be maim or sick too (Isaiah 33:24, Psalms 103:1-5).

Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19).

Thus, at the time of Jesus's first coming to Israel, many people in Israel are sick, demon possessed, precisely because they have forsaken that Law covenant. (Luke 13:11, Acts 3:2)

Jesus thus healed all of them to give them a sign that he was indeed their promised Messiah (John 20:30-31, Luke 7:19-23. Luke 4:27).

Acts 10:38 is an especially beautiful summary by Peter to show that
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

But now, God no longer relates to us under the Law (Romans 6:14, 1 Timothy 1:9).

So when we believers are sick nowadays, we can be rest assured that it is not because we have disobeyed God in anyway.

Conversely, if we find ourselves getting better, it is NOT because we are currently doing something that pleases God.

That is what I believe Paul is teaching us now when he shared with us Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and when he gave Timothy common sense advice regarding his frequent stomach ailments.

Hi there

Sickness and disease as punishment was not because of Israel at Mount Sinai. Sickness and disease was the effect of the rebellion in the Garden.
Adam and Eves failure to obey God in the Garden, did not just result in a broken relationship
1)with God, but
2)with each other,
3)the rest of creation and
4)themselves and

all the residual effects of those relationships.

The gospel therefor has to be all-inclusive. Yes we do not always experience this as a lived reality, but herein is the hope that one day it will be a lived reality (already but not yet).

 

[Guojing]

Hi there

Sickness and disease as punishment was not because of Israel at Mount Sinai. Sickness and disease was the effect of the rebellion in the Garden.
Adam and Eves failure to obey God in the Garden, did not just result in a broken relationship
1)with God, but
2)with each other,
3)the rest of creation and
4)themselves and all the residual effects of those relationships.

The gospel therefor has to be all-inclusive. Yes we do not experience this as a lived reality, but herein is the hope that one day it will be a lived reality (already but not yet).

Read my post properly, I did not say Sickness and disease as punishment was because of Israel at Mount Sinai.

I said Since Israel was formed at Mount Sinai, sickness and disease was always punishment due to disobedience and unbelief but that was under the Law

Have you read Exodus 15:26

What does this verse literally say?

 

[Rose_bud]

I apologize if I misquoted or misunderstood you, but my response remains none-the less.

 

[Guojing]

but my response remains none-the less.

So, likewise, what does Exodus 15:26 says to you?

If that is still unclear, what does Deuteronomy 7:12-15 say to you?

 

[Rose_bud]

So, likewise, what does Exodus 15:26 says to you?

I have read it yes.
But incase I misunderstand you again. What are you arguing with this verse.

 

[NBB]

Hi, we can make all the arguments we want, but it says 'in the name of Jesus they will cast out devils' 'they will pray for the sick and they will heal', now, today, people still need deliverance and healing badly, and God promised those stuff, so i don't care if its called signs and wonders, God promised and commanded to do this, and we need it.
So all this discussion can be labeled as: plain unbelief.

 

[Guojing]

I have read it yes.
But incase I misunderstand you again. What are you arguing with this verse.

If you read my earlier post, it was

Under the Law, God literally promised Israel that if they obey him, they will never fall sick (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

Do you agree or disagree with this statement of mine and why?

 

[Guojing]

now, today, people still need deliverance and healing badly, and God promised those stuff, so i don't care if its called signs and wonders, God promised and commanded to do this, and we need it.
So all this discussion can be labeled as: plain unbelief.

As always, it is important that you rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)

Just because God once promised Israel under the Law that if they obey him, they will never fall sick, it does not mean we can claim those same promises for ourselves.

It will be like someone grabbing Matthew 19:28, and trying to claim one of the 12 thrones that Jesus promised his disciples.

 

[Rose_bud]

If you read my earlier post, it was

Under the Law, God literally promised Israel that if they obey him, they will never fall sick (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

Do you agree or disagree with this statement of mine and why?

Yes under the law that was a covenant blessing.

Just a friendly upfront disclaimer
If this discussion is going to digress into whether Christians are called to uphold the law of Moses. I politely excuse myself.

Much grace to you

 

[NBB]

As always, it is important that you rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)

Just because God once promised Israel under the Law that if they obey him, they will never fall sick, it does not mean we can claim those same promises for ourselves.

It will be like someone grabbing Matthew 19:28, and trying to claim one of the 12 thrones that Jesus promised his disciples.

I don't adhere to that theology, Paul wrote the same things to gentiles they were not jews, and had gifts and whatnot.

 

[Guojing]

Yes under the law that was a covenant blessing.

Just a friendly upfront disclaimer
If this discussion is going to digress into whether Christians are called to uphold the law of Moses. I politely excuse myself.

Much grace to you

No, I am not.

Looks like you never read my post properly at all, if you had read the conclusion of that original post of mine you have replied to, I concluded with this.

But now, God no longer relates to us under the Law (Romans 6:14, 1 Timothy 1:9).

So when we believers are sick nowadays, we can be rest assured that it is not because we have disobeyed God in anyway.

Conversely, if we find ourselves getting better, it is NOT because we are currently doing something that pleases God.

That is what I believe Paul is teaching us now when he shared with us Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and when he gave Timothy common sense advice regarding his frequent stomach ailments.

 

[Guojing]

I don't adhere to that theology, Paul wrote the same things to gentiles they were not jews, and had gifts and whatnot.

You believe you are still under the Law of Moses today?