A Question About Signs and Wonders

[ARBITER01]

But what we do see in Scripture was that only the Apostles actually performed signs and wonders, especially in the record of Paul's missionary journeys where all of the signs and wonders were performed by Paul and no one else.

8 ¶ Now Stephen, full of grace and power, performed great miracles and signs amongst the people.

5 ¶ Now Philip, coming down into the city of Samaria, proclaimed Christ unto them,
6 And the multitudes, with one accord, heeded the things being said by Philip, upon them hearing and observing the signs which he did,

13 And Simon himself also believed, and being immersed, was attending unto Philip,
14 And beholding the signs and great works of power being done, he was amazed.

Anyone with a bit of reading ability can see that both Stephen and Phillip that were non-apostles both performed great works of power.

I don't think you know what you talking about Oscarr, but you sure are creating a lot of reportable material for this particular forum that you're teaching your doctrine against.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

8 ¶ Now Stephen, full of grace and power, performed great miracles and signs amongst the people.

5 ¶ Now Philip, coming down into the city of Samaria, proclaimed Christ unto them,
6 And the multitudes, with one accord, heeded the things being said by Philip, upon them hearing and observing the signs which he did,

13 And Simon himself also believed, and being immersed, was attending unto Philip,
14 And beholding the signs and great works of power being done, he was amazed.

Anyone with a bit of reading ability can see that both Stephen and Phillip that were non-apostles both performed great works of power.

I don't think you know what you talking about Oscarr.

I explained why Stephen and Philip were able to perform signs and wonders.

 

[ARBITER01]

Let me post that again,....

I don't think you know what you talking about Oscarr, but you sure are creating a lot of reportable material for this particular forum that you're teaching your doctrine against.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Let me post that again,....

I don't think you know what you talking about Oscarr, but you sure are creating a lot of reportable material for this particular forum that you're teaching your doctrine against.

I'm only reflecting what I see in the Book of Acts, and also reflecting on modern lack of evidence of true signs and wonders. I firmly believe that the Bible fully supports the use of the gifts of the Spirit in today's church. God has never withdrawn them. The reason why they declined and ceased by the 4th Century was that under Constantine, the Christian church became essentially pagan covered over with Christian terminology. I believe that the gifts of the Spirit were restored to those groups that rejected the pagan elements that existed in the church of the early 20th Century.

But the modern signs and wonders movement does not represent traditional Pentecostal and Charismatic worship and practice. I don't support the modern word faith movement started up by Kenneth Hagin, which has departed from the sound doctrine of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements while maintaining the appearance. The sad thing about it is that people who are not strong in the Scriptures who are brought into the movement are unaware thy at they are being deceived into thinking they are coming into the true Pentecostal and Charismatic movement, when in fact they have become part of a movement that is infused with New Age mystical elements.

The Charismatic that I fully support as being sound in doctrine are represented by the AOG, Church of God, Elim. Charismatic Baptist and Presbyterian, and other similar fellowships. The basic theology of these churches is shown in The Foundations of Pentecostal Theology by Dr. Guy Duffield, and Gordon Fee's Commentary on First Corinthians. So, along with what I see in Scripture, I support Duffield and Fee in their description of continuation theology. But I don't see any support for the modern signs and wonders movement in either of these books.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm only reflecting what I see in the Book of Acts, and also reflecting on modern lack of evidence of true signs and wonders. I firmly believe that the Bible fully supports the use of the gifts of the Spirit in today's church. God has never withdrawn them. The reason why they declined and ceased by the 4th Century was that under Constantine, the Christian church became essentially pagan covered over with Christian terminology. I believe that the gifts of the Spirit were restored to those groups that rejected the pagan elements that existed in the church of the early 20th Century.

But the modern signs and wonders movement does not represent traditional Pentecostal and Charismatic worship and practice. I don't support the modern word faith movement started up by Kenneth Hagin, which has departed from the sound doctrine of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements while maintaining the appearance. The sad thing about it is that people who are not strong in the Scriptures who are brought into the movement are unaware thy at they are being deceived into thinking they are coming into the true Pentecostal and Charismatic movement, when in fact they have become part of a movement that is infused with New Age mystical elements.

The Charismatic that I fully support as being sound in doctrine are represented by the AOG, Church of God, Elim. Charismatic Baptist and Presbyterian, and other similar fellowships. The basic theology of these churches is shown in The Foundations of Pentecostal Theology by Dr. Guy Duffield, and Gordon Fee's Commentary on First Corinthians. So, along with what I see in Scripture, I support Duffield and Fee in their description of continuation theology. But I don't see any support for the modern signs and wonders movement in either of these books.

To be quite honest Oscarr, the only thing I see you fully supporting is your flesh when you argue very sneaky cessationist type teachings with us Spirit-filled people in our forum.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread was moved from Spirit-filled/Charismatic at OP request.​

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

To be quite honest Oscarr, the only thing I see you fully supporting is your flesh when you argue very sneaky cessationist type teachings with us Spirit-filled people in our forum.

My views are not cessationist at all. The Scripture warns against false signs and wonders, and these are the features of the modern signs and wonders movement promulgated by the word faith prosperity teachers. The true purpose of the gifts of the Spirit are to strengthen faith in Christ and point people to His finished work on the Cross, that He bled and died to take the penalty for our sins and to set us free from the dominion of darkness. The gifts are an extension of the Gospel of Christ which is the real power of God that leads to salvation to those who believe.

What the signs and wonders movement has done is to replace the Gospel with the desire to gain power, thereby turning people aside from sound Christ-centred doctrine. This is what Paul told Timothy, that people will not endure sound doctrine but will turn aside to fables. This is what the signs and wonders teaching has done. It has turned aside from teaching about what Jesus has done for us on the Cross to the importance of gaining personal power through signs and wonders. Instead of producing Christ-centred believers, it has produced a crop of "me"-centred people, ignoring Scripture and seeking for mystical experiences.

It is interesting to note that the Pharisees saw all the miracles of Christ, and yet they still sought to kill Him. Therefore miracles do not bring faith and trust in Christ. Their purpose is to get people's attention to the Gospel, but if the Gospel is unacceptable to people, then miracles are no use to them. So this is what the signs and wonders people do - they seek the miracles instead of Christ.

 

[NBB]

Jesus, said that those who 'believe in him', will even do things 'greater' than him, his words. So those who believe in him.

 

[Rose_bud]

Hi there
The book of Acts is also called Acts of the Apostles (not of ordinary disciples) hence the focus is generally on the signs and miracles they performed through the power of the Holy Spirit. It's also been known as the Acts of the Holy Spirit for obvious reasons. And volume 2 of Luke or Luke-Acts.

Luke writes to Theophilus to give an account of what transpired after Jesus ascension. His good news would continue. Luke in his gospel shares how Jesus moved towards Jerusalem and in Acts how God now moves from Jerusalem towards those outside of Jerusalem to the rest of the world... that movement is still continuing and demonstrated through signs and wonders...

Yes I agree there are those who have distorted the truth with false miracles. But just because there are those that deceive does not mean all things are deception.

Signs and wonders are evidence for those who need this to realize that Jesus is a reality and that He is God. God knows what people need, where they are at in their walk with Him. And if a sign is what they need then....
What message did Jesus give when John asked if He is the One?

Matthew 11: 4-6 Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

 

[NBB]

And these signs shall follow those who believe:: In my name they will cast out devils.... this is in the bible people, don't say deliverance is not for today, that's against the bible. They shall pray for the sick and they will heal... So whats so hard to understand about this passage? why try to find the fifth leg to the cat.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

And these signs shall follow those who believe:: In my name they will cast out devils.... this is in the bible people, don't say deliverance is not for today, that's against the bible. They shall pray for the sick and they will heal... So whats so hard to understand about this passage? why try to find the fifth leg to the cat.

Colossians 1:13 makes it very clear that deliverance is not for Christian believers. Being converted to Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit sets the person totally free from all demonic domination. A person has a demon, therefore is unconverted, or has the Holy Spirit. Can't have both at the same time. Therefore deliverance is for unconverted sinners to clear the way for them to receive the Holy Spirit when they are born again. Therefore any deliverance ministry for Christian believers is a fraud and a lie.

It is a proven fact that there has not be one documented proof of actual healing that has been produced by the prominent word faith "healing" ministries, in spite of all the talk and motivational speech making, making the "healing ministry" a scam to make money out of vulnerable sick people and to increase the wealth of the proponents of the "ministry"

Of course you can easily prove me wrong by producing actual documentation of before and after Xrays, written diagnosis of medical conditions with documented proof of total healing through attendance at a healing conference.

The very publicised testimony of a woman who had three of her toes grow back after being shot off by her abusive husband was featured on the internet and lauded by Bill Johnson of Bethel Church. But when the woman was asked to show the regrown toes by taking off her shoes and socks, she refused. So there was no proof of it. You would think that if the toes had really grown back, she would be showing them to all and sundry. I think the reason why she wouldn't take her sock off was that she was lying and wasn't prepared to expose her "healing" as a lie.

Todd Bentley, who made extravagant claims of people being healed was asked to provide medical evidence of just five people healed through his ministry. Incomplete pieces of paper were produced that didn't contain anything significant and proved nothing. He couldn't prove that his ministry wasn't a scam and a fraud.

Benny Hinn, the foremost healing ministry around the world cannot produce even one documented proof of healing in all the time his ministry has been operating. This shows that he is all talk, and he has made millions of dollars through motivation speech making and unfulfilled promises. Again, I am willing to be proved wrong by seeing at least five documented healings showing before and after photos, Xrays, or diagnoses from qualified medical professionals.

People who have been genuinely healed of serious medical conditions would be more than happy to show documentation because they would be passionate to show that Jesus really does heal today.

 

[Laodicean60]

People who have been genuinely healed of serious medical conditions would be more than happy to show documentation because they would be passionate to show that Jesus really does heal today.

You probably wouldn't believe them because you are so entrenched in your worldview. I'm here partly because God healed my heart attack in September and I have the ejection fraction numbers to prove it.

 

[NBB]

Colossians 1:13 makes it very clear that deliverance is not for Christian believers. Being converted to Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit sets the person totally free from all demonic domination. A person has a demon, therefore is unconverted, or has the Holy Spirit. Can't have both at the same time. Therefore deliverance is for unconverted sinners to clear the way for them to receive the Holy Spirit when they are born again. Therefore any deliverance ministry for Christian believers is a fraud and a lie.

It is a proven fact that there has not be one documented proof of actual healing that has been produced by the prominent word faith "healing" ministries, in spite of all the talk and motivational speech making, making the "healing ministry" a scam to make money out of vulnerable sick people and to increase the wealth of the proponents of the "ministry"

Of course you can easily prove me wrong by producing actual documentation of before and after Xrays, written diagnosis of medical conditions with documented proof of total healing through attendance at a healing conference.

The very publicised testimony of a woman who had three of her toes grow back after being shot off by her abusive husband was featured on the internet and lauded by Bill Johnson of Bethel Church. But when the woman was asked to show the regrown toes by taking off her shoes and socks, she refused. So there was no proof of it. You would think that if the toes had really grown back, she would be showing them to all and sundry. I think the reason why she wouldn't take her sock off was that she was lying and wasn't prepared to expose her "healing" as a lie.

Todd Bentley, who made extravagant claims of people being healed was asked to provide medical evidence of just five people healed through his ministry. Incomplete pieces of paper were produced that didn't contain anything significant and proved nothing. He couldn't prove that his ministry wasn't a scam and a fraud.

Benny Hinn, the foremost healing ministry around the world cannot produce even one documented proof of healing in all the time his ministry has been operating. This shows that he is all talk, and he has made millions of dollars through motivation speech making and unfulfilled promises. Again, I am willing to be proved wrong by seeing at least five documented healings showing before and after photos, Xrays, or diagnoses from qualified medical professionals.

People who have been genuinely healed of serious medical conditions would be more than happy to show documentation because they would be passionate to show that Jesus really does heal today.

That's not true, the bible says 'in my name christians will cast out devils'. Those are signs that will follow those who believe, If it were true you say that demons are cast out when believing it wouldn't say that. Is like a commandment actually, the bible is like commanding christians to cast out devils. There were kinds of demons that not even the disciples could cast out, and needed prayer and fasting.
Also, i have experience in my ilfe being set free of stuff, and going to church seeing others being free.

And is too sad when some videos on youtube or something can hijack a christian into thinking everyone else is fake too.

 

[NBB]

The problem is that no unconverted is going to want deliverance, or is useless, since they are in the hands of the devil, first you preach to them, then you get deliverance after they accept.

 

[ARBITER01]

Hi there
The book of Acts is also called Acts of the Apostles (not of ordinary disciples) hence the focus is generally on the signs and miracles they performed through the power of the Holy Spirit. It's also been known as the Acts of the Holy Spirit for obvious reasons. And volume 2 of Luke or Luke-Acts.

Some of the early manuscripts just have "Acts" probably referring to The Holy Spirit. The gospels gave accounts of The Son of GOD, and the OT was The Father and His actions.

 

[ARBITER01]

That's not true, the bible says 'in my name christians will cast out devils'. Those are signs that will follow those who believe, If it were true you say that demons are cast out when believing it wouldn't say that. Is like a commandment actually, the bible is like commanding christians to cast out devils. There were kinds of demons that not even the disciples could cast out, and needed prayer and fasting.
Also, i have experience in my ilfe being set free of stuff, and going to church seeing others being free.

And is too sad when some videos on youtube or something can hijack a christian into thinking everyone else is fake too.

GOD used my prayers to set one of our young women in the congregation free from demonic oppression. It happens to Christians also because we can get tempted into sin just like unbelievers, if we are not careful.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You probably wouldn't believe them because you are so entrenched in your worldview. I'm here partly because God healed my heart attack in September and I have the ejection fraction numbers to prove it.

If you received medical intervention and treatment, it could be argued that it was the treatment that enabled you to survive your heart attack without permanent damage to your heart. But if through prayer your heart attack was totally resolved before you got to the hospital and the doctor was able to say that you did not need to receive any further treatment and that your heart and arteries are in much better condition now than before the heart attack, which the doctor could only say that this happened through a miracle of God, and the medical report stated a doubt whether it was a heart attack in the first place because when you got to the hospital there was no evidence that a heart attack had ever taken place, then event a medical report of that nature might not be actual proof of a healing miracle.

I'm not actually saying you didn't have a heart attack, and your medical report would show that you received medical intervention and treatment for it. In that case, you could rightly say that the Lord was working with the doctors to ensure that you survived with minimal damage to your heart. If the Lord had really healed your heart and arteries, then they would be perfect, not requiring any further medication.

Anyhow, this is just my opinion, and you can check it out for yourself and come to your own conclusions, but I have to be honest and say that I am not totally convinced that you had a healing miracle supported by clear documentation.

 

[NBB]

GOD used my prayers to set one of our young women in the congregation free from demonic oppression. It happens to Christians also because we can get tempted into sin just like unbelievers, if we are not careful.

Sometimes is not even the person fault, you could get attacked by witchcraft, and if you are ignorant and not defending yourself and firm you could get in trouble with demons. Also the devil attacks 'worthy targets' they say, so if the devil hates you and oppose everything is because you are doing something good supposedly.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That's not true, the bible says 'in my name christians will cast out devils'. Those are signs that will follow those who believe, If it were true you say that demons are cast out when believing it wouldn't say that. Is like a commandment actually, the bible is like commanding christians to cast out devils. There were kinds of demons that not even the disciples could cast out, and needed prayer and fasting.
Also, i have experience in my ilfe being set free of stuff, and going to church seeing others being free.

And is too sad when some videos on youtube or something can hijack a christian into thinking everyone else is fake too.

The reference in Mark does say that Christians will cast out devils. But it does not say that Christians will have devils cast out of them.

My view is if you are a genuinely converted, baptised believer in Christ, you have the Holy Spirit and therefore you are totally set from any domination by the devil. Therefore you were set free from the works of the flesh through the power of the Holy Spirit, along with the others at your church.

 

[Laodicean60]

If you received medical intervention and treatment, it could be argued that it was the treatment that enabled you to survive your heart attack without permanent damage to your heart.

You are hopeless. See I told you you wouldn't believe and more or less called me a liar. Peace Out