A question about Job.

[Seeking Him]

Yes, David shared the very bearings of his soul with God, ALL of it....perhaps this is part of the reason that God called David the "apple of His eye"....and yes, about Moses, how he spoke very candidly with God....and Abraham did as well, when he spoke to God about Sodom when God said He was going to destroy it, and Abraham was speaking on behalf of his nephew Lot who lived there.....

It reminds me of that verse where God invites us to come together and "reason" with Him....and it seems these men of God did.....and possibly Job was acutely suffering from the loss of this "reasoning" with God because he had always had an open, on-going dialog with God, but at this particular time through these series of circumstances, God was silent...this, i suspect is what grieved Job the most as he had no way of knowing it was only temporary....yet in some of what he says, we catch a glimpse of how bonded his heart was with God anyway when he says 'though He slay me, yet will I trust Him'......

Brinny, great thoughts.
I never thought of that, the loss of reasoning and dialogue with God. That must have tormrnted Job.
One chapter he says," if I could find him I would argue my case. Then, " I long for the years when God took care of me, when he lit up the way before me.God's friendship was felt in my home. The Almighty was still with me, and my children were around me.
He will do to me whatever he pleases, he controls my destiny."
As you said, he was still bonded with God.

And the seemingly supernatural trust Job had, I thought of this scripture:
"He knows the way I take and when he has tried me I'll come forth as gold."

 

[Seeking Him]

Yes indeed Seeking Him and those who do not know God at this intimate level, where God reveals Himself much more fully to them, because they have earned His trust by opening themselves up to Him, might easily think that they have no right to speak to the Creator as they do. Often our anger towards God is hidden in our hearts because we dare not admit it even to ourselves, or because we want to hide from Him, and prefer the world to intimacy with God, but it is only when we admit it that God can deal with it and He did so with Job when He appeared in the whirlwind.

He was able to speak to Job as He did, 'Come on now, pull yourself together and see how much exactly you do not know' because His appearance always brings healing (in His wings) and down we go in the dust in repentance.

The four voices had not brought healing to Job, they had instead brought injury with their cutting and wounding remarks because they were not spiritual and had no idea what was really going on with Job and the heavenly battle being fought over him and others who walk with Him.

Sister, maybe the whirlwind was a projection of sorts of Job's anger. What you said about "seeing what Job did not know," reminds me of what Paul said, "It hasn't entered our minds, what God has prepared for us. Who has known the mind of the Lord?" How unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out." As Brinny said, Job was no longer hearing the Lord's thoughts. When we go through trials and the Spirit is no longer revealing things to us, it is hard.

Healing voices are what we all long for. Yes, a healing tongue like a tree of life.

 

[bmjackson]

Sister, maybe the whirlwind was a projection of sorts of Job's anger. What you said about "seeing what Job did not know," reminds me of what Paul said, "it hasn't entered our minds, what God has prepared for us. Who has known the mind of the Lord?" As Brinny said, Job was no longer hearing the Lord's thoughts. When we go throughh trials and the Spirit is no longer revealing things to us, it is hard.

I tend to think that the whirlwind symbolises confusion. So, God appearing in the midst of the whirlwind, says that it is right in the middle of the confusion we find ourselves, when in the furnace of affliction, that is to say, the trial which will bring us forth as gold. He comes to us when things are at their worst, as the dawn comes at the blackest part of the night and speaks in such a way, in the eye of the storm, so that we know it is Him, as He brings that healing touch, and that sense of reality about our selves that brings us down into the dirt.

 

[Seeking Him]

I tend to think that the whirlwind symbolises confusion. So, God appearing in the midst of the whirlwind, says that it is right in the middle of the confusion we find ourselves, when in the furnace of affliction, that is to say, the trial which will bring us forth as gold. He comes to us when things are at their worst, as the dawn comes at the blackest part of the night and speaks in such a way, in the eye of the storm, so that we know it is Him, as He brings that healing touch, and that sense of reality about our selves that brings us down into the dirt.

Yes, confusion, I can see that. The furnace of affliction. The light affliction that brings the eternal weight of glory, although the afflictions don't seem light. I wonder about glory, did Job see God's glory in the end. And what do you think glory really is? I wonder about what it is. Does the glory appear out of the ashes of contrition and brokenness?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sister, maybe the whirlwind was a projection of sorts of Job's anger. What you said about "seeing what Job did not know," reminds me of what Paul said, "It hasn't entered our minds, what God has prepared for us. Who has known the mind of the Lord?" How unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out." As Brinny said, Job was no longer hearing the Lord's thoughts. When we go through trials and the Spirit is no longer revealing things to us, it is hard.

Healing voices are what we all long for. Yes, a healing tongue like a tree of life.

I tend to think that the whirlwind symbolises confusion.

So, God appearing in the midst of the whirlwind, says that it is right in the middle of the confusion we find ourselves, when in the furnace of affliction, that is to say, the trial which will bring us forth as gold....

My bros, Paul and Luke, use that word in these verses...pretty fascinating.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G181 matches the Greek ἀκαταστασία (akata-stasia), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

1 Corinthians 14:33
for not is the God of tulmuts/confusion/akatastasiaV <181>, but of peace,
as in all the Assemblies of the Saints.

Luke 21:9
Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tumults/akatastasiaV <181> no may be being dismayed, for is binding these to be becoming
but not immediately the end

181. akatastasia ak-at-as-tah-see'-ah from 182; instability, i.e. disorder:--commotion, confusion, tumult.
182. akatastatos ak-at-as'-tat-os from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 2525; inconstant:--unstable.
2525. kathistemi kath-is'-tay-mee from 2596 and 2476; to place down (permanently), i.e. (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy:--appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
2596. kata kat-ah' a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):--
2476. histemi his'-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):--

.

 

[bmjackson]

My bros, Paul and Luke, use that word in these verses...pretty fascinating.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G181 matches the Greek &#7936;&#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#8055;&#945; (akata-stasia), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

1 Corinthians 14:33
for not is the God of tulmuts/confusion/akatastasiaV <181>, but of peace,
as in all the Assemblies of the Saints.

Luke 21:9
Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tumults/akatastasiaV <181> no may be being dismayed, for is binding these to be becoming
but not immediately the end

181. akatastasia ak-at-as-tah-see'-ah from 182; instability, i.e. disorder:--commotion, confusion, tumult.
182. akatastatos ak-at-as'-tat-os from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 2525; inconstant:--unstable.
2525. kathistemi kath-is'-tay-mee from 2596 and 2476; to place down (permanently), i.e. (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy:--appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
2596. kata kat-ah' a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):--
2476. histemi his'-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):--

.

Indeed, LittleLambofJesus, where there is the presence of God there is peace, as in the quiet of the eye of the storm. But there are times of testing, such as what Jesus Himself went through in the wilderness where the presence of the Lord leaves. Some men call it the dark night of the soul. However, when the Lord returns, He brings His peace to reign again. Of course it often is due to our having unconfessed sin, but Job shows us that it is not always the case.

 

[bmjackson]

Yes, confusion, I can see that. The furnace of affliction. The light affliction that brings the eternal weight of glory, although the afflictions don't seem light. I wonder about glory, did Job see God's glory in the end. And what do you think glory really is? I wonder about what it is. Does the glory appear out of the ashes of contrition and brokenness?

Seeking Him

My view about seeing God's glory, is about seeing Christ in His full resurrection power, that is, to be part of it, resurrected with Him from our old selves not in the life to come, but now, restored to the state in which God intended for us, saved from sin, not just as a notion but in actual reality, and made perfect the same way that Job was perfect. Job's trial was then, following on from the time he was made perfect.

 

[Seeking Him]

My bros, Paul and Luke, use that word in these verses...pretty fascinating.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G181 matches the Greek &#7936;&#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#8055;&#945; (akata-stasia), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

1 Corinthians 14:33
for not is the God of tulmuts/confusion/akatastasiaV <181>, but of peace,
as in all the Assemblies of the Saints.

Luke 21:9
Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tumults/akatastasiaV <181> no may be being dismayed, for is binding these to be becoming
but not immediately the end

181. akatastasia ak-at-as-tah-see'-ah from 182; instability, i.e. disorder:--commotion, confusion, tumult.
182. akatastatos ak-at-as'-tat-os from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 2525; inconstant:--unstable.
2525. kathistemi kath-is'-tay-mee from 2596 and 2476; to place down (permanently), i.e. (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy:--appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
2596. kata kat-ah' a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):--
2476. histemi his'-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):--

.

Thanks LLOJ, interesting info. I heard that where James and John were called "sons of thunder" really meant "sons of commotion."

Instabiity and disorder surely frame the Book of Job for sure. Then God arrives to bring "katartizo" to arrange, adjust, and put in order. The word is used in the scripture, "by faith we believe the worlds were "framed" "katartizo" by the word of God.

 

[Seeking Him]

Seeking Him

My view about seeing God's glory, is about seeing Christ in His full resurrection power, that is, to be part of it, resurrected with Him from our old selves not in the life to come, but now, restored to the state in which God intended for us, saved from sin, not just as a notion but in actual reality, and made perfect the same way that Job was perfect. Job's trial was then, following on from the time he was made perfect.

Yes Sister, Colossians 3, risen with Christ, where he is seated at the right hand of God. Hard to imagine, but true by faith, we are risen with him.Saved from sin, that's a good point. The greater glory of justification, and grace rules over sin.

At the transfiguration, power and glory are seen. Greater glory than the law and the prophets, Moses and Elijah. Then a cloud , like glory appears. Then God's voice. No wonder Peter says "it's good for us to be here."

 

[bmjackson]

Yes Sister, Colossians 3, risen with Christ, where he is seated at the right hand of God. Hard to imagine, but true by faith, we are risen with him.Saved from sin, that's a good point. The greater glory of justification, and grace rules over sin.

At the transfiguration, power and glory are seen. Greater glory than the law and the prophets, Moses and Elijah. Then a cloud , like glory appears. Then God's voice. No wonder Peter says "it's good for us to be here."

Yes sis we are, or are supposed to be in a position of being seated in heavenly places, above all principalities and powers, at the right hand of God, NOW not in the future, and it was this thought that sent me on the quest for a more authentic Christian experience as l was not experiencing victory or peace or joy for much of the time.

And during my quest which took me up a steep mountain climb, one day l witnessed the transfiguration, and saw the glory and the fullness of what Christ had in store for me, and was blown away by it and was never the same again.

 

[bmjackson]

Yes Sister, Colossians 3, risen with Christ, where he is seated at the right hand of God. Hard to imagine, but true by faith, we are risen with him.Saved from sin, that's a good point. The greater glory of justification, and grace rules over sin.

At the transfiguration, power and glory are seen. Greater glory than the law and the prophets, Moses and Elijah. Then a cloud , like glory appears. Then God's voice. No wonder Peter says "it's good for us to be here."

Yes sis we are, or are supposed to be in a position of being seated in heavenly places, above all principalities and powers, at the right hand of God, NOW not in the future, and it was this thought that sent me on the quest for a more authentic Christian experience as l was not experiencing victory or peace or joy for much of the time.

And during my quest which took me up a steep mountain climb, one day l witnessed the transfiguration, and saw the glory and the fullness of what Christ had in store for me, and was blown away by it and was never the same again.

 

[bmjackson]

Setyoufree

When you say to me 'how dare you' when l express my opinion that Elihu was not God's messenger, l just don't feel like conversing with you any longer.

God's blessing to you.

 

[Setyoufree]

Setyoufree

When you say to me 'how dare you' when l express my opinion that Elihu was not God's messenger, l just don't feel like conversing with you any longer.

God's blessing to you.

Of course you don't. Perhaps because I refute everything you say?

As to Elihu, you attack him. That's much more than a mere opinion.

 

[brinny]

I was reading the Book of Job again today....

...and i realized that Job's lamentations here in Chapter 30 remind me of the "heart" behind the lyrics in a song (I'll Praise You In This Storm"), especially verse 25:

"Did not I weep for him that was in trouble? was not my soul grieved for the poor?" ~Job 30:25

I realized even more clearly that Job's visitor's did not hear a word Job said. This added insult to an already direly suffering and wounded Job who found no rest for his body, mind, and soul, day and night. These visitors were not only not "hearing" Job, they were persecuting him, accusing him, lying about him, and in addition pronouncing "curses" on him.

When Job describes how he was received in the town square, he was describing how everyone genuinely loved him and honored him for the genuine kindness, mercy, and compassion he had on all he met, and how he defended the defenseless, and spoke up for those who could not speak up for themselves. He was just and wise and was a defender of the oppressed. He was loved, and that is why he was shown honor from everyone. It was from their hearts. He was a well-beloved and thus a well-received man.

There's a scene in "To Kill A Mockingbird" where the main character, a lawyer, took on the case and the defense of a man who was unjustly accused of something and would've been scapegoated because of the color of his skin. The lawyer, Atticus Finch, is leaving the court room, and as he does, the onlookers in the upper level of the courtroom rise to their feet. He had won the hearts of those who stood and it's because He stood for justice when no one else would.

Yes, it effects us all deeply when someone stands for justice, defends the defenseless and speaks up for the oppressed. And thus, we rise to our feet in respect.

Same with why Job was so loved and honored and why all would rise to their feet in his presence.

To Kill a Mockingbird (8/10) Movie CLIP - Your Father's Passing (1962) HD - YouTube

 

[brinny]

I heard a teaching on Job.....then i couldn't find this thread LOL

gonna bump it up so i can find it again so i can post after i figure out where that teaching i heard is

 

[brinny]

An astute and insightful lesson/sermon on Job:

The Questions Of A Man In Agony - YouTube

 

[Rhamiel]

I am almost finished re-reading the book of Job

I always thought that Job complained to much
but this time reading it, I see that he was a righteous man and his friends were totally unjust in what they said

Job does not sin, he states he is innocent but he also points out that no mortal can be seen as just before the Lord

 

[brinny]

that's interesting that you're re-reading it...i will be re-reading it again also...it's a book rich with wisdom and it's what first caught my attention about what "fearing God" means...and it blended right in with Proverbs that i had begun.reading a chapter a day....and this verse caught my eye and stopped me dead in my tracks:

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." ~Proverbs 9:10

Then i began noticing how many Godly men were characterized/described as men who "feared God"

and thus it began, my study of Job.

 

[bmjackson]

That was an interesting sermon Brinny from an amazing preacher, but he is wrong. Job did not question God about the things which befell him. He praised God anyway. Here is an essay I wrote on Job. I will only post the first part to see if there is interest in it being posted in full.

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif] C[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]ONTENDING THE SILENCE OF HEAVEN:[/FONT]


[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]A STUDY O[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]N[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif] JOB.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]INTRODUCTION. [/FONT]


[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Many identify with Job because they see themselves or others as victims, expressing their disappointment towards a silent God, for failing to step in to prevent their suffering, due to not understanding that Job's contention was not over this issue. In this essay, I propose that Job was fully submitted to the will of God, the true remedy for the lack of peace and joy in his people, as Paul writes: I am overjoyed in all affliction 2 Cor. 7.4, and that his grief was due to the loss of his sense of God's presence and therefore the silence of heaven, which resulted from the challenge the accuser made, that the principle of love, under the New Covenant, is not superior to that of control. The challenge was that God should step down from his throne if Job could be proven to be unholy, not serving out of love alone1 as R. Sutherland said, and the best that God could produce.[/FONT]


[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]LIGHT. [/FONT]



[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Job's reaction to sudden and profound loss, was to accept it with grace as if from the hand of God, with thanksgiving and praise. We are presented with a man who walks in the Spirit, a faithful servant of Almighty God. Later he would lament:[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]O that I were as in the months of old[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]as in the days when God watched over me[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]when his lamp shone over my head and by his light[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]I walked through darkness when I was in my prime. 29.2-4.[/FONT]


[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]'It did not matter whether deep darkness might be around him for, by the light of God, he saw the path, and was able to walk with him through[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]darkness'2 [/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]explains[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]J.[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif] Penn-Lewis[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif].[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]For Job, e[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]ach successive blow is [/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]accepted magnanimously: [/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]; [/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]blessed be the name of the Lord[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif].[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]1.21. [/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]On recounting his past experiences [/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]29.23,[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif] Job does not speak of [/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]his worldly loss[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif], but expresses his grief about [/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]his[/FONT][FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif] loss of light, or in other words, the presence of God. [/FONT]


[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Paul H. Jones writes that Job believed in the law of karma 3 but I posit that he was demonstrating that he knew that his children were still operating under the old covenant, when he made sacrifice for them, which was also the theology of the 'friends' whereas he himself lived now in the light of the New Covenant or love, which can be shown by his acceptance of evil as being non retributive:Shall we receive the good from the hand of God and not receive the bad? 2.10. Job is shown to be a holy man, walking in the light, having put on the righteousness of God. [/FONT]


1Robert Sutherland, Putting God on Trial: The Biblical Book of Job. (British Columbia:Trafford 2004), 34.

2Jessie Penn-Lewis, The Story of Job. (Fort Washington:CLC 1996), 11.



3 Paul H. Jones, Job's Way Through Pain: Karma, Clich[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]é[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]s & Questions. (Milton Keynes: Paternoster, 2014)[/FONT]

 

[brinny]

It seems that in many ways, you and Ravi Zacharias are saying the same thing. Job, as God Himself described him, was a righteous man who feared God and eschewed evil. Part of the reason that he sacrificed for his children, is because he WAS righteous and that is why he did so. He was covering his loved ones in prayer, if you will, lifting them up to God. That is what a righteous man does when he fears God. This was on-going and on up to when God allowed Satan to come at him. What we learn from Job is the heart and mind a Godly man has towards God. And they are exactly what God repeated in describing Job in the first verses of Chapter I. And they are that he:

was perfect and upright
feared God
eschewed evil

In Job's questioning God he was in essence, praying, pouring out his heart and soul, in his grief and mourning and utter despair at the necessary silence of God at that time. He was in misery times infinity.

Yes, he was in dire straits because of God's silence and this probably was the most grievous for him. He kept crying out to God. And there was no answer.

What Ravi was spot on about was in the astute surmising of Job's friends and how they added inexpressible misery to Job.

What i find is that tr-reading Job is helpful to me as i pick up on details i had noticed in the previous reading.

The key for me is/has been the very first verses in the first chapter that sorta lit the way through the rest of the chapters.

Ravi invited his listeners to put theirselves in Job's place. Hopefully that's what we all will do as we read the book of Job.