A Protestant's First Mass

[Mary7]

Jews, but not Christians. ie thief on the cross. I was taught there is a 'waiting place' but is with Christ until the new heavens and new earth are created. If one has to pay or pray someone out of Purgatory then what was the use of Jesus dying for our salvation. I had been reading catholic articles and most are saying we are saved by grace.. and that decision is made before death.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Jews, but not Christians. ie thief on the cross. I was taught there is a 'waiting place' but is with Christ until the new heavens and new earth are created. If one has to pay or pray someone out of Purgatory then what was the use of Jesus dying for our salvation. I had been reading catholic articles and most are saying we are saved by grace.. and that decision is made before death.

Everyone who gets to purgatory has already been saved by grace, with Jesus having died for their salvation. Purgatory is not a 'way around' the normal and obligatory salvation through Jesus.

It is the final cleaning of Jesus, by Jesus, for those of us who are not absolutely pure by the time of our death. And that means almost all of us. We all have attachments to some sins, bad habits, dislikes of some people, an inability to pray without ceasing, things like that, which do not prevent our being saved but which are not the sort of thing we want to present as we stand before God asking for entrance to His presence. Those are 'burned away' in the process of sanctification that didn't finish for most of us before we die. It's kind of like a metal working process of burning out the impurities in a metal by heat -- analogically of course.

And just as our prayers for people can and do assist them here and now, our prayers for those people can and do assist them in some real way. Our prayers are not and end run around grace in either case, but a participation in the Communion of the Saints. Their purification is like their sanctification while alive, sometimes even painful as we let go of bad habits and nasty attachments for grasping the one true God more and more tightly.

 

[Mary7]

Ok, that makes sense but what scriptures are there to back this up, please?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Ok, that makes sense but what scriptures are there to back this up, please?

The Bible doesn't mention the word, but then again the Bible doesn't mention the word 'trinity' either.

The Bible does mention prayers for the dead in 2 Maccabees 12:46, but that book was conveniently ripped out of Protestant Bibles so they can say it isn't Biblical. Clever that. It is a Biblical practice that is still done by Jews, called Kaddish, the duty to pray for their dead. Christians continued that practice, and the Orthodox as well as the Catholics still do it. Praying for the dead then leads to the question of why we do it if they automagically have just gone to heaven. Purgatory is logical if you accept praying for the dead, a more than 2000 year old tradition.

For more info see: Is Purgatory in the Bible? | Catholic Answers

 

[Vicomte13]

The Bible doesn't mention the word, but then again the Bible doesn't mention the word 'trinity' either.

The Bible does mention prayers for the dead in 2 Maccabees 12:46, but that book was conveniently ripped out of Protestant Bibles so they can say it isn't Biblical. Clever that. It is a Biblical practice that is still done by Jews, called Kaddish, the duty to pray for their dead. Christians continued that practice, and the Orthodox as well as the Catholics still do it. Praying for the dead then leads to the question of why we do it if they automagically have just gone to heaven. Purgatory is logical if you accept praying for the dead, a more than 2000 year old tradition.

For more info see: Is Purgatory in the Bible? | Catholic Answers

The Bible does mention the word. The word Gehenna is Purgatory.

 

[Rhamiel]

The Bible does mention the word. The word Gehenna is Purgatory.

is not Gehenna normally understood to be the hell of the damned?

we should look at how the Early Church Fathers thought on these verses

 

[chevyontheriver]

is not Gehenna normally understood to be the hell of the damned?

we should look at how the Early Church Fathers thought on these verses

My understanding of Gehenna was the place where the worm dieth not, a place of eternal fire. The valley of Himnon was the place where child sacrifices were offered to Moloch. I would call this place Hell, a location of eternal punishment. There are later Jewish Talmudic Midrashes that apparently do see it as a place of purgation. I think some modern Jewish thinkers would call Gehenna the same as Purgatory, following Talmud.

I think Christians typically have seen it as a place of eternal misery. For myself I consider Sheol to be the more purgatorial place, with Gehenna as what we typically call Hell. It's all complicated because the concept of a life after death came along slowly in Jewish thought, not long before Jesus came.

The confusion, I think, also comes from the reductionist theology of the Reformation, which had no room for differing abodes for the dead other than simply heaven and hell. Thus the reduction of a Biblical complexity for a theological simplicity. The Greek 'Hades', Jewish 'Sheol', Jewish 'Gehenna', and Greek 'Tartarus' all became simply 'Hell' in the KJV. And we've been confused ever since.

If someone can do a query of the Fathers about 'sheol', 'and 'gehenna' I would appreciate it. I don't quite have the tools.

 

[Vicomte13]

is not Gehenna normally understood to be the hell of the damned?

we should look at how the Early Church Fathers thought on these verses

Yes. It is. We should look at what Gehenna is to the Jews. Jesus was a Jew, talking to Jews, using a word that is never defined in the Scriptures, but which they all understood without definition. Gehenna is not a Christian concept or belief. It's a Jewish belief that Jesus affirmed by referring to it. Gehenna is not Hell of the Damned, except for those who never get out of it. It is Jewish Purgatory, potentially permanent. It has always been that, and it still is. The early Fathers, Greeks outside of the Jewish tradition, substituted their wisdom and reasoning for the Jewish meaning of the word. In the process, they obscured what Jesus revealed. The Catholics eventually got there with Purgatory, but they too are blinded by their own tradition, saying that Purgatory is not in the Bible and is, rather, the necessary result of reasoning.

They're right about what Purgatory is, but quite wrong that it is not in the Bible.

Gehenna is Jewish Purgatory. Gehenna is Hell, for some, who are never cleansed and who remain there. For the rest, it is the prison where the last penny of unforgiven sin is paid. Want to skip that step? Jesus said how: Forgive everybody their sins against you, and God will forgive all of your sins also, and you will not therefore have to pay for them in the prison. Refuse to forgive some, and your sins will also not be forgiven, and you will pay that debt in the prison - until the last penny is paid.

It's pretty straightforward, following the Jewish understanding, and considering that Jesus was talking to Jews in their culture and using their language, and didn't redefine the term, there's no reason for us to pull apart what he said and reassemble it with some pieces missing. It's something that a Jew can read Jesus speaking in the Gospel about Gehenna and understand it immediately, while the Christian wanders around in a fog and, not understanding the original term, manufactures a new definition while simultaneously manufacturing a whole new place - Purgatory - to cover the necessary gap left by turning the real Purgatory - Gehenna - into an eternal hell of the damned, a duplicative Lake of Fire.

The ancient Fathers of the Church should have consulted the Jews on Gehenna. Then we all would have had the right definition from the beginning, and we would not still be arguing about Purgatory. Purgatory is in the Bible. It is the proper translation of the word "Gehenna". That's what Purgatory IS.

 

[Vicomte13]

My understanding of Gehenna was the place where the worm dieth not, a place of eternal fire. The valley of Himnon was the place where child sacrifices were offered to Moloch. I would call this place Hell, a location of eternal punishment. There are later Jewish Talmudic Midrashes that apparently do see it as a place of purgation. I think some modern Jewish thinkers would call Gehenna the same as Purgatory, following Talmud.

I think Christians typically have seen it as a place of eternal misery. For myself I consider Sheol to be the more purgatorial place, with Gehenna as what we typically call Hell. It's all complicated because the concept of a life after death came along slowly in Jewish thought, not long before Jesus came.

The confusion, I think, also comes from the reductionist theology of the Reformation, which had no room for differing abodes for the dead other than simply heaven and hell. Thus the reduction of a Biblical complexity for a theological simplicity. The Greek 'Hades', Jewish 'Sheol', Jewish 'Gehenna', and Greek 'Tartarus' all became simply 'Hell' in the KJV. And we've been confused ever since.

If someone can do a query of the Fathers about 'sheol', 'and 'gehenna' I would appreciate it. I don't quite have the tools.

The problem, simply put, is that Greeks and Romans - who were all of the early Christians except for Jews - had their own theologies of the afterlife, and they did not learn the Jewish beliefs. Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews, and what he laid out is what the Jews largely already know:

Sheol is Hades: the general place of the afterlife of the dead. It is not up in the sky but in the earth.
It is divided into to places: Gan Eden - Paradise - where Abraham is and the others rest in joy, and Gehenna - Hellish Purgatory - where unforgiven sins are paid, until the last penny is paid. Separating the two is an abyssal canyon.

By following Jesus, one knows the way to avoid Gehenna after death and go to Gan Eden/Paradise.

Then, at the end of the world, the spirits in both Gehenna and Gan Eden are raised back to life and rejoined to bodies, becoming living souls once again. This is The Resurrection (of the good and the bad). They are judged by God. The City of God comes down out of the sky (heaven is the sky), and those who pass final judgment enter into the city. Those who have committed certain terrible deeds who are unforgiven are cast into the Lake of Fire for the second death. Whether they die and their spirit and body are consumed and gone in the flames, or they remain intact and burn forever is never revealed. Christians have glossed it both ways.

That's what Jesus actually revealed.

To this, Christianity has added bells and whistles. "Hell" is a Scandinavian pagan concept and word. Various translations render Sheol/Hades as "Hell", and Gehenna as "Hell". But this is simply an additional christmas tree grafted onto an already full system. Changing language, changing a word, and then adding a thing to account for the word. Is Peter's "Tartarus" an additional place, at the bottom of the black chasm, perhaps? Or just another region of Sheol in Gehenna? Impossible to say because God didn't reveal it.

The beauty of understanding the Jewish structure as it is is that all of a sudden all of the doubts evaporate and the questions dissipate. When you realize that Gehenna is Purgatory, the rest of what Jesus said squares with it. Jews understood it without needing definitions. Still do. They just don't think that Jesus was the Son of God with the power to determine outcomes.

 

[Glaucus]

Interesting information about Gehenna and Purgatory.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Hello all, I'm a junior working towards a bachelors degree in International Studies and had to take a World Religions class. I love that class and elected to complete an extra credit assignment for it. The assignment required someone to go to a religious service different from your own. One of the examples was that if you are an evangelical Christian you could go to a Catholic Church. So I did. I just wanted to share the short essay I wrote on my visit here to ensure I was respectful. The teacher is a Catholic and I would hate to disrespect him nor any other Catholics.

On Saturday, December 9th, 2017 I attended a Roman Catholic Mass at St. Michael’s parish in Frostburg, MD. I have been raised a protestant my entire life with half of my childhood being raised in a very conservative Southern Baptist church and the other half being raised in a politically moderate Salvation Army Corps. The Baptist church was very “low church” in that it was a very “come as you are” church. You could wear street clothes and fit in perfectly fine whereas the corps is somewhere between a low and a high church where church members, myself included, tend to wear military style uniforms and non-members tend to wear whatever they like. Both churches were/are very humble and plainly decorated and yet were/are very large (sanctuary wise). In fact, at that Southern Baptist Church we were always told how Catholics (and honestly any non-baptist) were cultists. The pastor adamantly preached how the Roman Catholic Church was a Mary worshipping cult. I am glad to know how wrong that is. Honestly, the Roman Catholic Church, during this Mass at least, was not as different from my background as I had originally imagined.

When I first entered St. Michael’s I was given warm smiles to which I replied with a smile as well. I was going to sit in the last row until I looked and saw a monk sitting in that spot so I chose to sit in the row in front of him. I had never seen anyone dressed in such a way in person and he smiled when he saw me so I smiled back. I got there about fifteen minutes early and looked around as the seats filled a shocking amount for a non-Sunday service. The service’s bulletin, or program, was for the Second Sunday of Advent. There was a lot of standing, sitting, and kneeling throughout the service which I went along with as I felt comfortable doing those motions. They didn’t seem to go against my beliefs in any way. I didn’t do the sign of the cross because I didn’t know how to be honest. The readings of the day went over John the Baptist, they started in Isaiah, then went to one of Paul’s epistles, and finally settled into the Gospel of Mark. They gave so much reverence for the Gospel that I was a little shocked. After a very short message about going out into the world with His message, they served communion. I of course did not partake in the Eucharist as it is, from what I’ve heard, for Catholics only. We sang three Hymnal songs, which were very similar to what I’ve sung at the Salvation Army.

As I looked around at the congregation, I saw a shocking mix of young and older adults as well as several children. All in all, there was more diversity than my current church, the Salvation Army Corps. The majority was white, and the congregation looked to be a mix economically. I felt comfortable despite not speaking to many people. During the service there was a handshaking time where I think everyone said, “Peace be with you”. There as well, everyone smiled towards me and it felt warm. In the end, would I return? Certainly, given the opportunity I will come back again. Maybe next time I’ll ask questions as well. I had always felt Catholicism was not Christian and yet, that service opened my eyes to the reality. I still don’t agree with many Catholic ideas but I am willing to learn. In the end, I have found that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and the Catholic church is definitely worth seeing.





Thank you for reading and God Bless!

Kajiki, It almost sounds like you felt at home. Welcome Home. We are definitely Christian, and we definitely do not worship Mary. You thought you weren't at Sunday Mass, but you actually were. Saturday evening is part of Sunday in our faith. Having multiple Masses on Sunday makes it more convenient. Maybe you should try Christmas Mass, especially if your church doesn't celebrate Christmas with services.

If you need some knowledge of what you're experiencing, or wish to discuss what holds you back, I can be a resource to you. I'm a convert as well, and would welcome the conversation.

Merry Christmas.
(What are you giving Jesus for Christmas?)

 

[Root of Jesse]

Honestly my teacher has said again and again that he has no wants to convert students (it's a secular school and a secular class). However, if not for him I'd of never set foot in that parish. I suppose I do have a few questions. I've been looking into Eastern Orthodoxy lately and until Saturday didn't give the Catholic Church much thought. I guess my major barriers of understanding stem from the immaculate conception of Mary, her ascension into Heaven, and an actual place called Purgatory.

I've honestly begun to come to terms with the papacy the more I read and honestly I dunno how else to interpret Peter getting his name if not for him being singled out. I also see nothing wrong with a focusing aide for prayer and I believe that the saints are alive in Christ and thus can hear our prayers for them to commune with Christ. There's honestly not much that I disagree with to be frank except for what is in bold.

Great progress! Sorry I came in here so late. I had surgery on Wednesday.
Purgatory isn't necessarily a place. It's a time of cleansing your soul for entrance into heaven.

The Marian dogmas are explainable. Those took me some time, too.

 

[FinishedCross]

I wouldn't base the reality of Purgatory off of Hebrew words, or thier traditions, which is certainly not ours.

I've never seen evidence purgatory be recieved. Doesnt matter if you quote Luther or go in depth with human reason and logic.

The core issue is that people feel Jesus died so they can make thier own path in life and save themselves as their ego sees fit.

People keep thinking living in sin is some sort of ongoing mortal sin like an affair etc. Sure.

But have you considered that living in 'religious sin' could be the same thing with the same consequences?

Purgatory shouldn't be a deal breaker. How many of us actually think about purgatory after death? Obviously we all want to go directly to heaven like the Saints. And maybe most do that are in a state of grace. But hey, I will gladly accept purgatory if that means I'm among the fewness of the saved.

 

[Kajiki]

Yeah purgatory isn't really a deal breaker just something that makes me think a little tbh. The Marian dogmas however I still struggle with. If they weren't dogmatic it may be easier but they are and so I get confused tbh.

Thank you everyone btw for warm welcomes. I attended both last Tuesday and Saturday's masses. Both were great and I'm have a third talk with the local priest after lunch tomorrow. I can't stop going its like an addiction. It's so very reverent and beautiful and shows a shred of the magnificence of God that I haven't seen in a worship service before.

 

[Open Heart]

The ancient Fathers of the Church should have consulted the Jews on Gehenna. Then we all would have had the right definition from the beginning, and we would not still be arguing about Purgatory. Purgatory is in the Bible. It is the proper translation of the word "Gehenna". That's what Purgatory IS.

I couldn't say it better.

 

[FinishedCross]

Yeah purgatory isn't really a deal breaker just something that makes me think a little tbh. The Marian dogmas however I still struggle with. If they weren't dogmatic it may be easier but they are and so I get confused tbh.

Hi!

My post was directed toward someone else but I have to say your probably the first person I've come accross that is open to purgatory (which is of very good character).

The Mary stuff isnt as complicated as it seems. The only reason why the Church is dogmatic towards Mary is to safeguard against heresy relating to Jesus divinity and the Trinity. Heres an example why the Mary stuff exists;

-All born men have 'fallen short' in need a savior ('fallen short' is a nice way of saying 'sin').
-Mankind inherits this sin in our flesh, so we can't help but to be 'sinners'. St. Paul discuss this very issue;

Romans 7:18,23-25 (accurate) ..nothing good lives in me (that is, in my flesh). I want to do what is right, but I can't [fully]..[because] there is another power [living] within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin..[yet] who will free me from this body that is doomed to die? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord ('saving grace')

OLD HERESY: Therefore, since Jesus flesh came from Mary, that means Jesus was born a fallen sinner like the rest of us, and therefore, could not be God or our savior.

With the modern age of religious freedoms and the printing press, old heresies began to resurface. The Church was 'forced' decree the Mary dogmas officially to protect the divinity of Jesus.

Basically, because Jesus was a human, and his body came from Mary, almost all heresies regarding Jesus divinity involve Mary.

Also note that there are 3 'types' of Christianity:

1 - Catholic
2 - Protestant (catholic in a state of protest, accept the Creeds of Faith. About a dozen churches total; Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, etc)
3 - Anabaptist (5% of Christians world wide, yet by far are the most vocal on Internet/media because they operate as businesses. They reject the Creeds which result in 'Another-Baptism' hence Anabaptist. They are the 40,000 denominations that operate as a growth based enterprise. Mostly in America.)

 

[Kajiki]

I think of Purgatory like this:
1. With sin we can not look upon God's face as seen by Moses in Exodus
2. We would need to acknowledge each sin as sin and ask for forgiveness of each and every sin which may be very difficult.
3. Those in Purgatory aren't being given a second chance, they are already destined for Heaven.

With these three in mind I don't think it's THAT hard to imagine Purgatory.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I wouldn't base the reality of Purgatory off of Hebrew words, or thier traditions, which is certainly not ours.

I've never seen evidence purgatory be recieved. Doesnt matter if you quote Luther or go in depth with human reason and logic.

The core issue is that people feel Jesus died so they can make thier own path in life and save themselves as their ego sees fit.

People keep thinking living in sin is some sort of ongoing mortal sin like an affair etc. Sure.

But have you considered that living in 'religious sin' could be the same thing with the same consequences?

Purgatory shouldn't be a deal breaker. How many of us actually think about purgatory after death? Obviously we all want to go directly to heaven like the Saints. And maybe most do that are in a state of grace. But hey, I will gladly accept purgatory if that means I'm among the fewness of the saved.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

 

[anawim]

He gave me a book called "Christ Among Us".

I can't believe anyone still uses that book. When he was still Cardinal, Ratzinger said it was, ''not suitable as a catechetical text.''

BOOK'S POPULARITY TESTS THE VATICAN

Since the Lord is in control, the H.S. will guide you to His truth.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I can't believe anyone still uses that book. When he was still Cardinal, Ratzinger said it was, ''not suitable as a catechetical text.''

BOOK'S POPULARITY TESTS THE VATICAN

Since the Lord is in control, the H.S. will guide you to His truth.

Pretty much anything by Peter Kreeft, or John Hardon, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church will be way better. Of course, it has been revised a few times, and maybe a bit for the better. But it still appears not to be able to get an Imprimatur, so I would pick something else. With the Catechism of the Catholic Church being so easy to read and so available, that is a logical choice.