a physical body in heaven?

[Davy]

Just sharing a thought, if someone does not believe the same things that you believe it is not heresy. Heresy is a term that should not be overused and has specific applications.

If an idea goes against the written Word of God, then it is a heresy. And that is not my opinion.

 

[Clare73]

Sorry, but you apparently did not read my posts and your response is totally off from what I wrote.
God the Word fellowshipped with Adam in the Garden in the cool of the evening.
That fellowship was with God.

So you're saying that Adam fellowshipped with the pre-incarnate Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. . .The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." (John 1:1, John 1:14)

So, you err in your post saying that God did not form the physical body of Adam as the very “tselem” of Him. Note that God has only One Image/Tselem, and that One is God the Word, and Adam was formed, bodily, in that very same “image”. Adam was physically formed to look like the image of God the Word.

No, His body of human flesh that He put on like a garment was not yet put on, and not yet formed in the womb of the virgin until the incarnation, but that image was always one and the same. It did not change, and the body is very much a sanctuary for the Father to indwell, but Adam lost that.

The New Man, Israel, YHWH the WORD, come in 2nd creation flesh, shed His blood as our Redeemer/Kinsman so that we could be cleansed in soul, adopted in Spirit, and adopted in flesh.

Our regenerated flesh will look exactly like us, but without sin, no corruption, no death.
Than the Glory is put on it.


In Romans 5:15, the word used is the same word used for the images used by printing presses which are coated with ink and printed, of themselves, and also, to carved images that can be stamped in clay to imprint exactly the form of carved image.
I gave the Strong’s definition and you said it was not what the English said. That is somehow trying to change the meaning, by yourself.

Also,

The Romans 5:14 passage states that Adam was the very “tupos of Him who was to come.
How can you miss that?

In the language of Ro 5:14, "as did Adam who was a pattern of the one to come (Christ)."

Pattern is not a copy.
Patter is the original.

Do you understand that the pattern is the (original) form, model, design, lay-out, which is then copied,
do you understand that the pattern is not the copy?

In Romans 5:14, Adam is the pattern, Jesus is the copy.

Also, when God appeared in His image to the 70 elders of Israel + 4 more, on Mount Sinai, it was His “tselem”, and actual image...they saw.
Explain that.

Also, in Ezekiel 1, God looked like an Adam, in glory, when Ezekiel saw Him on His throne. Explain that.


When Isaiah went to heaven He saw YHWH on His throne, when His train (glory of the garment) filled the temple. In John 12, John said Isaiah saw Jesus at that time. Explain that.

Exodus 24:9-11
Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Eze 1:25 -28
And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of ADAM above upon it.

And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD2828. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Isaiah 6:1
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

John 12:37 -41
But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

 

[Davy]

You seem to be a bit confused.
Adam, in his flesh body was in Paradise, in Mount Eden, in the third heaven, in fellowship with God the Word, with access to the Tree of Life, there.

Where is it written that Adam in God's Garden of Eden was in the third heaven? You are making that up.

In Genesis 2, God's Garden of Eden was ON EARTH. And that is where God formed Adam from the dust of the GROUND. As shown in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, our flesh is made from the earthly elements, and the earth is where God formed Adam's flesh.

Another proof that God's Eden was ON EARTH when He formed Adam was the fact that God's River in Eden flowed out to feed four other rivers UPON THE EARTH, two of which are still on earth today, Euphrates and Tigris (or Hiddikel). This is what Genesis 2 shows.

Once Adam and Eve had sinned, it was then that He cast them out of His Garden that was ON EARTH, and then placed Cherubim (plural) to guard the tree of life, which including MOVING His Eden OFF THE EARTH to the hidden dimension where it is now, the heavenly.

This is why in the future of God's Kingdom under Christ, God's Eden and His River with the tree of life is prophesied to return TO THIS EARTH, in final (Ezekiel 47; Revelation 22).

 

[Davy]

I suspect it will be able to de-materialize and pass through matter (walls) and re-materialize, as we see Jesus' doing after the resurrection.

True, and that's why it is not a flesh body like we have today. Could Christ's disciples understand that when He appeared and disappeared to them? No. His appearing and disappearing suddenly amidst them was written to show us this difference with that other dimension type body. In Matthew 22:30, Jesus said the resurrection is as the angels of God in heaven. So we have those examples to compare that body to. This Apostle Paul did in 1 Cor.15 also.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Where is it written that Adam in God's Garden of Eden was in the third heaven? You are making that up.

In Genesis 2, God's Garden of Eden was ON EARTH. And that is where God formed Adam from the dust of the GROUND. As shown in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, our flesh is made from the earthly elements, and the earth is where God formed Adam's flesh.

Another proof that God's Eden was ON EARTH when He formed Adam was the fact that God's River in Eden flowed out to feed four other rivers UPON THE EARTH, two of which are still on earth today, Euphrates and Tigris (or Hiddikel). This is what Genesis 2 shows.
...

.

I love the Word of God and I read it with “open eyes”.
So, the 4 rivers are still on earth, and the River that came out of Eden and watered the Garden and then became the “head waters” of 4 rivers on earth was and is an atmospheric river. Atmospheric rivers can carry more water than the Amazon.
We lived in the Pacific Northwest for decades and we had an atmospheric River called the Pineapple Express come out of “heaven” above the Hawaii area and dump on us about Thanksgiving every year.
It also would dump on California, some years.
The atmospheric river that came out of Eden was fed by the waters above the heavens, which you can read about in Genesis 1, day 2, of creation week.

And as to Eden: it is also called the holy Mount Zion of the heavenly realm in the ancient writings, and it is in the third heaven, and that was formed on day 2, also, of creation week, when the heavens were stretched out between the cut in two elemental waters of creation and half lifted above the stretched out heavens and half remaining below the stretched out heavens.

It all started right here, on this earth, which is the center of God’s creation.
So in the stretched out heavens, which are stretched out in stories/layers, as the Word states, there is Mount Eden, where God’s Garden is planted, in which Adam was taken and set to be a guardian there, as the original Hebrew wording clearly states.
Use the concordance and look at the words used for Adam being taken to the Garden of God/Paradise, in which He would have remained as the high priest and high king of earth, over his kingdom which the Creator made for him to reign over, with free going back and forth forever....

That is to be restored in the New Man Name, and going up and down will commence when the veil is removed that is spread over all the nations and heaven is opened to our eyes again.
And Paul said he was caught up to the third heaven, to Paradise/God’s Garden, in 2 Cor...
Jesus said the Tree of Life is in the midst of the Paradise of God, and that is where it always has been, from the beginning of creation.

As to Paradise ever being on this earth below the heavens: there is not one single Scripture that teaches that, but much to be found in the facts of where it was and still is.

2 Cor 12:2-4
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

And FYI: modern men did not understand atmospheric rivers until not so many years ago,

 

[Bruce Leiter]

What reason would you give for why we will have and/or need a physical body in heaven?

First, Jesus' physical body is in heaven now since he had it after he was resurrected.

Second, our physical bodies will be resurrected when Jesus returns with out souls from heaven. We won't have our bodies in heaven while we await the time when our souls will return to be reunited with our perfected, resurrected bodies.

Third, when we will be resurrected, Jesus will create the new heavens and new earth (new universe) in which we will live forever (pictured as the new Jerusalem [all believers] coming down to the new earth), as Revelation describes symbolically in chapters 21 and 22.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

If an idea goes against the written Word of God, then it is a heresy. And that is not my opinion.

Damnable heresies touch the Person or work of the LORD Jesus Christ.
There are many heresies believed by many sincere Christians, but damnable heresies deny the LORD'S Person, or His work.
It is evil to point heresy fingers at Believers, and methinks the one doing so is themselves in spiritual danger and in need of self examination.

 

[chilehed]

What reason would you give for why we will have and/or need a physical body in heaven?

Because by our nature we have bodies.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Because by our nature we have bodies.

Yes.
We are soul/persons and our body is our house, as Scripture says.

 

[d taylor]

What reason would you give for why we will have and/or need a physical body in heaven?

Are you asking this from the view point that, that is where a believer spends eternity.

 

[Davy]

First, Jesus' physical body is in heaven now since he had it after he was resurrected.

Second, our physical bodies will be resurrected when Jesus returns with out souls from heaven. We won't have our bodies in heaven while we await the time when our souls will return to be reunited with our perfected, resurrected bodies.

Third, when we will be resurrected, Jesus will create the new heavens and new earth (new universe) in which we will live forever (pictured as the new Jerusalem [all believers] coming down to the new earth), as Revelation describes symbolically in chapters 21 and 22.

That's following men's traditions, not actual Bible Scripture.

In 1 Corinthians 15, which is the Chapter giving detail of what type body the resurrection is, Apostle Paul taught the resurrection body is a "spiritual body", not a flesh body. And Paul gave other descriptors with it, pointing to the "image of the heavenly". And he also said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[Davy]

Yes.
We are soul/persons and our body is our house, as Scripture says.

Thing is though, the body of the resurrection, which is of the heavenly dimension, is not... another flesh body:

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

 

[disciple Clint]

Are you asking this from the view point that, that is where a believer spends eternity.

it is an open question and there seems to be many different views expressed in this thread. I am interested in what people believe not in what is theologically the correct answer.

 

[Clare73]

That's following men's traditions, not actual Bible Scripture.

In 1 Corinthians 15, which is the Chapter giving detail of what type body the resurrection is, Apostle Paul taught the resurrection body is a "spiritual body", not a flesh body. And Paul gave other descriptors with it, pointing to the "image of the heavenly". And he also said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

A spiritual body does not mean non-material, non-physical.

Paul never uses "spiritual" to mean non-material, non-physical.
Paul ALWAYS uses "spiritual" to mean the domain of the Holy Spirit.

The spiritual physical body, in contrast to the natural physical body, is incorruptible (non-decaying), sinless and glorious, a work of the Holy Spirit, but Jesus said it is still flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

You are the one not following the "actual Bible Scripture" of Luke 24:39, but are superimposing your own view opon it.

 

[Clare73]

Thing is though,

the body of the resurrection, which is of the heavenly dimension, is not... another flesh body:
1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.KJV

"Flesh and blood" is Paul's usage for the natural (corruptible--decaying, sinful, weak) physical body, which will not be in the eternal kingdom of God, no sin being allowed there, only the

spiritual (non-decaying--incorruptible, non-sinful--glorious, non-weak--powerful) physical body, which Jesus himself says is flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) will inherit the kingdom of God.

You are in disagreement with Jesus' own words in the "actual Biblical Scripture" of Lk 24:39.

 

[Elear]

The idea that we live in "heaven" is based on a misunderstanding. We will live on the "new" (not completely new, but restored) earth. God designed us as physical creatures from the beginning. When humans lived in perfection in Eden, they had bodies. There is no reason to think that the new earth will differ from this. We will live on the new earth with new bodies.

I could post scripture to support this, but many others here are already doing an excellent job of that.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If an idea goes against the written Word of God, then it is a heresy. And that is not my opinion.

Your denial of the resurrection of the body goes clearly against what is written in the Scriptures, so even by your own standard of judgment what you believe is heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Davy]

A spiritual body does not mean non-material, non-physical.

If you mean by the word "physical" a flesh body, then no, it is not a physical body. If you mean by the word 'physical' that it has form and shape to look like a flesh body, then yes, that is how it appears, and that proof is from Scripture witness.

Paul never uses "spiritual" to mean non-material, non-physical.
Paul ALWAYS uses "spiritual" to mean the domain of the Holy Spirit.

Paul used the word "spiritual" with the word 'body' when speaking of the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Corinthians 15. Thus you are misquoting Paul.

The spiritual physical body, in contrast to the natural physical body, is incorruptible (non-decaying), sinless and glorious, a work of the Holy Spirit, but Jesus said it is still flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

The "natural body" Paul mentioned is the flesh corruptible body. The "spiritual body" he mentioned is the "image of the heavenly" he also mentioned in the 1 Cor.15 chapter. That "image of the heavenly" is like that of the angels. So since when was an angelic body ever a flesh body???

I know you want so much to believe the false tradition of men that our flesh is raised from the casket is true, but it is not. That is a tradition of men, and goes against the evidence in God's written Word.

You are the one not following the "actual Bible Scripture" of Luke 24:39, but are superimposing your own view opon it.

Oh but I am following The Bible Scripture, as written. It is you that is following a tradition of men that the dead are literally asleep in the ground until the resurrection.

What you're not understanding per God's Word is that there are TWO different dimensions of existence, this earthly one and the heavenly one. The heavenly dimension is one of Spirit (as a substance). It is not of material matter. It's simply a different dimension.

That is how Lord Jesus in His resurrected body was able to suddenly appear and disappear to His disciples. His resurrection body did not have to change to a flesh body to do that. His resurrection body stayed of that same heavenly dimension when He appeared here on earth to His disciples. This was true even more so before... He was born of woman into a flesh body as the Genesis 18 example shows. He and the two angels when appearing to Abraham were not in flesh bodies to do that. They were in the heavenly image type body, yet that body can live and walk upon this earth as that example reveals, along with Genesis 19.

So like Lord Jesus showed in John 3, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. By that He showed the two separate dimensions. Our spirit with soul is of the heavenly dimension, and it is attached to our flesh body with a "silver cord" (Eccl.12); that is the two dimensions existing together here on earth. When the flesh part dies it goes back to the earthly elements where it came from. But our spirit with soul goes back to God, i.e., manifests in the heavenly dimension where it's original home is.

This further explained means that whichever dimension we are in, either in this earthly one, or after having died and in the heavenly dimension, we still need a 'body' for our soul to manifest with. On earth that body type is a flesh body. In the heavenly the body type is a 'spirit' body, a.k.a. "spiritual body" named by Apostle Paul. This is why the testimony by the actor Clint Walker is right on, because at his ski pole accident going through his heart, he said he suddenly found himself in that other body, and said it felt really good, and that he suddenly knew things he didn't know before. Then he felt there was still something here in this life he needed to do, so he asked God to let him come back. He is written up in medical journals as a miracle case, because he was pronounced dead and was so long without oxygen that he should have been a vegetable when he came to.

 

[Clare73]

If you mean by the word "physical" a flesh body, then no, it is not a physical body. If you mean by the word 'physical' that it has form and shape to look like a flesh body, then yes, that is how it appears, and that proof is from Scripture witness.

Jesus own words in Luke 24:38-39 contradict you, which you continually fail to address. Enough!

Paul used the word "spiritual" with the word 'body' when speaking of the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Corinthians15.

Precisely!!!

And because "spiritual" never means non-material, non-physical with Paul, we know that the spiritual body is human flesh, just as Jesus said (Luke 24:38-43)!

That Paul was speaking of the "image of the heavenly" is refuted in v.39, where the human body is fleshly like the animals, birds and fish.

Thus you are misquoting Paul.

No. . .you are misunderstanding Paul!

The "natural body" Paul mentioned is the flesh corruptible body.

The "spiritual body" he mentioned is the "image of the heavenly" he also mentioned in the 1 Cor.15 chapter.

1) There is no "image of the heavenly" in that text, there is only "heavenly bodies" of sun, moon and stars.

2) The "heavenly bodies" of v.40 are not human bodies (that's v. 39), they are specifically stated as the celestial bodies of sun, moon and stars (v.41).

3) And the "spiritual bodies" are not the "heavenly bodies,'' which are sun, moon and stars of v.41, "spiritual bodies" are the human fleshly bodies (as the animals, birds and fish are fleshly bodies) of v.39.

4) And further, we know from Jesus himself that the spiritual fleshly body is material (Luke 24:38-43).

So. . .in answering the question: "with what kind of bodies will the dead come at the resurrection"
(1 Corinthians 15:35-44), Paul shows that God can take similar physical material and to accomplish his purpose organize it into different kinds of flesh--man, animal, bird, fish, into different kinds of heavenly bodies--sun, moon, stars, and into different kinds of earthly bodies--mountains, canyons, seas.

And just as he has organized similar physical material differently throughout his creation, so in the resurrection, God will organize physical material into different kind of human flesh--into a spiritual (sinless, incorruptible) flesh body. The new spiritual flesh body will be similar to the natural flesh body organizationally (have the human body parts, as did Jesus' resurrection flesh body), but radically different in that it will be imperishable, glorious and powerful, fit to live eternally with God. There is continuity between the two kinds of human flesh bodies, but there is also radical change.

"It is sown a natural (flesh) body, it is raised a spiritual (flesh) body.
If there is a natural (flesh) body, there is also a spiritual (flesh) body." (1 Corinthians 15:44)

Now you can stop wrestling the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16).

Oh but I am following The Bible Scripture, as written. It is you that is following a tradition of men that the dead are literally asleep in the ground until the resurrection. What you're not understanding per God's Word is that there are TWO different dimensions of existence, this earthly one and the heavenly one. The heavenly dimension is one of Spirit (as a substance). It is not of material matter. It's simply a different dimension. That is how Lord Jesus in His resurrected body was able to suddenly appear and disappear to His disciples. His resurrection body did not have to change to a flesh body to do that. His resurrection body stayed of that same heavenly dimension when He appeared here on earth to His disciples. This was true even more so before... He was born of woman into a flesh body as the Genesis 18 example shows. He and the two angels when appearing to Abraham were not in flesh bodies to do that. They were in the heavenly image type body, yet that body can live and walk upon this earth as that example reveals, along with Genesis 19.

So like Lord Jesus showed in John 3, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. By that He showed the two separate dimensions. Our spirit with soul is of the heavenly dimension, and it is attached to our flesh body with a "silver cord" (Eccl.12); that is the two dimensions existing together here on earth. When the flesh part dies it goes back to the earthly elements where it came from. But our spirit with soul goes back to God, i.e., manifests in the heavenly dimension where it's original home is.

This further explained means that whichever dimension we are in, either in this earthly one, or after having died and in the heavenly dimension, we still need a 'body' for our soul to manifest with. On earth that body type is a flesh body. In the heavenly the body type is a 'spirit' body, a.k.a. "spiritual body" named by Apostle Paul. This is why the testimony by the actor Clint Walker is right on, because at his ski pole accident going through his heart, he said he suddenly found himself in that other body, and said it felt really good, and that he suddenly knew things he didn't know before. Then he felt there was still something here in this life he needed to do, so he asked God to let him come back. He is written up in medical journals as a miracle case, because he was pronounced dead and was so long without oxygen that he should have been a vegetable when he came to.

 

[Davy]

Jesus own words in Luke 24:38-39 contradict you, which you continually fail to address. Enough!

If I contradict my Lord Jesus, then so did Apostle Paul with all the Scripture examples he gave, and I align with what Apostle Paul said, you don't.

You REFUSE to address the following Scriptures...

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Those Scriptures in red above are precise and definitive. So is this below...


2 Cor 5:1-2
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
KJV

Precisely!!!

Yes, Paul defined the "spiritual body" with the phrase "image of the heavenly" also! That means an angelic type body, NOT one of flesh...

Matt 22:29-32
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
KJV

Even in that last part, Lord Jesus shows that even Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ARE STILL ALIVE!

These Scriptures also reveal how Lord Jesus in His resurrected body, as a quickened Spirit, went to the spirits in prison in the heavenly and preached to them. Peter then further says this was so that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
KJV

That idea "quickened by the Spirit: By which also He went..." there, means Christ's resurrection was to a Spirit body, not flesh. His flesh was transfigured to the heavenly type body. Jesus didn't need a flesh body before He was born through woman either. The body type of that other dimension is a spiritual body, which is the image of the heavenly.


1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Those men that died are there now, living according to God in the spirit. It means they are in their spiritual body, the image of the heavenly.

And because "spiritual" never means non-material, non-physical with Paul, we know that the spiritual body is physical!

Now you're making up words to suit your own doctrine. The "spiritual body" term Apostle Paul used NEVER applies to flesh and blood. Paul used the idea of a "natural body" when pointing to a flesh and blood body. The word physical Paul did not use to define the two types of bodies.

Stay confused with man's doctrines if you want, I'm done showing you the Scripture evidence.