A message from Adam to all of humanity as given to Pastor Rick Joyner!

[Gxg (G²)]

I do believe firmly that God always existed...but I question if something similar to time going by occurred before God knew exactly how to make a squirrel???

God always knew how to make a squirrel, dude, as that's apart of the nature of who God is. He's ALL knowing...and even when He goes into something, He knows how it'll go since it's already in His mind. The thought that the Lord found out how to make squirrels or elephants and other animals (like an inventor saying "If I do this just right...then mabye this will come out") is not within Biblical Judaism or Biblical Christianity.

They are amazing little creatures that in a sense could be compared to prophets because when a hunter goes into the woods looking for a deer, the squirrels warn every animal for many kilometres that danger is approaching. Frankly, I have good reason to believe that many squirrels have actually been shot for doing exactly that...the comparison is obvious!

Indeed, they're amazing creatures....although it does come off a bit out of nowhere to bring it up. Interestingly enough, ithere isn't any real room showing that squirrels are somehow prophetic since many times they've caused accidents rather than saving others...even though one could say they're used of the Lord at times just as it is with other creatures.

Time at all as we know it would not exist previous to the creation of space and from what I have read regarding fundamental energy it would ALWAYS have existed!

Time was created by God, according to scripture...as before the existence of time (which is temporal), there was and always will be the realm of Eternity. Now, if discussing things from that perspective, better theories than fundamental energy would be things such as String Theory.


More was discussed elsewhere when it came to discussing differing scientific theories for how the creation came into being and addressing scientific realities that others are puzzled by (i.e. aliens, UFOs, etc) and how that may tie into scripture. For more, one can go here, here or here/here.


As another said best:

what would happen to the average believer if ET's showed up on the scene, took credit for ancient mythology, prepared to peacefully lead us into a new future, weren't threatened by claims about Jesus/Zeus/Muhammad/Nephilim/insert-deity-here/etc. And I'm already very familiar with the Enochian accounts, as well as common conspiracy theories and this and that.

If understanding that the Lord is in control at all times (for those claiming to follow Him) and that there's nothing He is caught off guard by....and if one understands that not all things that can be known are necessarily solely within the Bible (nor were they meant to be), I think it's rather easy to handle the entire "UFO" debate.

To give more clarity as to what I mean, I'm curious if you or anyone here is aware of the movie known as "Signs"....

Signs - The Alien confrontation​

Signs - The Aliens break into the house​

Its one of my favorite movies. For as you know (for those who've seen it), the film begins at approximately six months since Graham Hess lost his wife to a freak accident....and as his mate’s life ebbed away before his eyes, so did the religious faith that made him a respected priest in his rural Pennsylvania community. This spiritual crisis is central to what occurred in the film...and is put to the test when Graham, his two young children and his brother wake up one morning to find mysterious patterns carved into their cornfield similar to crop circles. Some are curious as to whether its apart of an elaborate prank...and others are of the mindset that its some sort of marker left by aliens as part of a pending invasion. Chaos and confusion ensue, not only for Graham and his family, but the world over. Graham’s son, Morgan, later becomes obsessed with the prospect of extra-terrestrial life.....and soom, nprecedented events occur—from strange sightings to things going bump in the night—making it clear that the stuff of nightmares is no longer just science fiction.

In several scenes, "Father" Hess questions the existence of God. In another, he’s downright hostile toward the Almighty (faced with the prospect of losing his asthmatic son, he cries, "Don’t do this to me again. I hate you"). Mostly we see frustration and pain in Graham who, in his grief, would rather embrace the notion that there is no god at all than believe in one he perceives as too impotent or uncaring to prevent tragedy. Of course, there is another option that the film never fully explores: A loving, omnipotent Creator eager to walk through life’s trials with us (Psalm 34:18, Romans 8:26).

At some points, Graham tells Merrill that people who experience bizarre fortuity are divided into two groups—those who ascribe it to luck, and those who see it as confirmation of divine guidance. Merrill puts himself in the second camp ("I’m a miracle man")...and later, he is disappointed when the big brother he idolizes responds in a defeated tone, "There is no one watching out for us, Merrill. We are all on our own."

Other examples of Hess's antagnonism toward God can been seen in examples such as his son Morgan feels the need to pray before mealtime, only to have his father lash out, "I am not wasting one more minute of my life on prayer!"--and later on, Merrill confronts his brother, condemning his faithlessness.

The ending of the movie is powerful when it seems that one of the weakeness that the aliens (water) was able to be utilized in an almost DIVINE manner due to Graham's daughter constantly drinking water only a little...and then leaving cups all around the house. Everyone thought she was crazy for it since she did it for years...yet it turned out to be something that came in handy just at the right place in the right time. Even the last words of Graham's wife turn out to be something which enabled Graham to realize how what she had said to him was not an accident---as it was key for him to be able to defeat his foe.
It is with this framework in mind that come at the issues of life that science often brings up. For as it concerns many of the things I've experienced in my life that could not be explained in ordinary ways----from radical healings of ailments/disabilities to answered prayers and miraculous deliverances (and even issues of the demonic/angelic being witnessed)---I cannot say that all things in life are simply by "chance" and all there is in life is simply matter/creation....as if we're simply part of something arbitrary and trying to find our own way.

Do our lives consist of nothing but a string of random events and coincidences? Or are our lives already mapped out and our destinies predetermined? Such issues are relevant to a core fundamental assumption of psychodynamic theory.

When it comes to spirituality and extra-terrestial life, I know that many may have issue with that if thinking that all life must exist solely within our realm.

However, I'm of the mindset that even when it comes to the life itself, there are multiple kinds of it---and even when it comes to extra-terrestial beings/the subject of angels, its not impossible to consider if understanding the concept of transdimensional beings that are able to go in & out of differing realms of existence.

Much of this comes from my understanding of what's known as "String Theory",.....and to be clear, String Theory is another one of the ways that many scientists are trying to describe what has been gathered with the theory of the Big Bang.....and the theory says that at the basic structure of matter and space, all matter is ultimately composed of "string-like" structures that vibrate at different frequencies and energy levels.

String Theory also predicts that there exists multiple external universes to our own that sometimes bounce into each other and collide. For the historical basis of this, one can research when scientists began to accept inflation, a theory developed by American physicist Alan Guth and his Soviet counterpart, Andrei Linde, in the early 1980s. For inflation holds that shortly after the Big Bang, a small shard of space-time underwent extremely rapid expansion, ultimately to become what we see around us: a universe of galaxies receding from one another. That theory opened up the possibility that other chunks of space-time went through their own inflation, creating a tremendous number of “pocket universes.”


The idea gradually grew into what is now known as the multi*verse theory, the notion that our observable universe is just one of perhaps an infinite number of cosmic domains, each with its own version of the laws of physics. In this view there is no need to explain why our universe has a particular set of physical laws, since somewhere out there exists a pocket universe for each possible set.....and of course, string theory inevitably got interwoven within that.


For more info, one can go online/investigate the following:

• "NOVA | The Elegant Universe | A Theory of Everything? | PBS"

• "Physical reality of string theory demonstrated | e! Science News" ( )

• "String Theory | Science News, Articles, Stories | Discover Magazine" ( )

• "Looking for Life in the Multiverse: Universes with different physical laws might still be habitable" Scientific American Magazine (December 16, 2009)" ( )

For more information, the November 2008 issue of Scientific American magazine devotes an article to "Colliding Universes" which have different dimensions and structures to our own....and there is the suggestion that perhaps just such a collision was the cause of the event that we call "The Big Bang". Some would argue that there be a common thread between the "alternate universes" of physics and the places described in the Bible.....and for those who don't believe in Hell (or Heaven), there is a very real possibility that future discoveries in science will confirm such a place can exist, possibly as one of those external universes to our own.



Some of the examples of such would be seen in how the Bible makes reference to a "bottomless pit" ( Luke 8:30-32 , Revelation 9:1-3, Revelation 20:2-4 , etc). To many, it could not be a better description of certain objects in space which have been proven to exist, that we call "Black Holes". For they have gravity so great that they trap matter and even light, inside, forever, in a concentrated geometric point in which the density is infinite and the temperature is infinitely high. Many scientists have specualated that these may be the doorways, or "Wormholes" to these external universes since the very nature of Black Holes is to be much like a vaccume that sucks down matter and disperses it on the other side/"mouth" fo the Hole in its inverse. There is also a luminous belt, called an "accretion disk", that surrounds these dark objects, which is flat and gives off radiation, much like a "lake of fire".

On String Theory, another example of how it can be used is in reference (biblically speaking) to the other realm or dimension in which angels and/or God may exist....as even Paul spoke about a ‘third heaven’ (2 Corinthians 12:2) and these may be compartments or areas of a spiritual realm or dimension. Even as it concerns concepts we know today that others may use in arguing against String Theory, it is established in the scientific community that all theories/ facts are ultimately provisional even when we may have good reason to be very confident about some of them.

Others may disagree....but I think that the science does give many credible things that lend to what scripture already describes.


Christians, like the Old-Earth/Progressive Creationist, Dr Hugh Ross, have actively supported the string theory camp and hold to the view that the other dimensions invoked by string theory could be the ‘other’ spiritual dimensions mentioned in Scripture. And as it concerns how other believers hold to the thought of string/theory & differing dimensions being in line with the scriptures, as Hugh Ross said best:

“Did you know that our universe likely began with 10 space-time dimensions? Yet we can only access four—length, width, height, and time. The Creator of all these dimensions must exist in the equivalent of 11 or more. So, what’s impossible in 4 dimensions—like listening to billions of prayers at once—is no problem for God.”
​

​

For more info, Dr. Ross just released the third edition of his acclaimed book that you mentioned, “Beyond the Cosmos”, where he updates readers on some recent discoveries reinforcing string theory and general relativity and relates how that further points to a transcendant creator God....and thankfully, he has written some articles on his website for more info. In order to find out more, one can go online/investigate the following under its respective title:

• String Theory | Reasons To Believe ( )

Whether one believes in the "Big Bang" theory where all matter/existence in all things beginning in a manner such as as goes the traditional view of Creationism when saying the Universe/all forms of existence began----or whether one holds to the "String Theory" view that many scientists hold to where matter has always existed/taken differing forms, I can go both ways....for its all beautiful--


Shalom..

​

G

 

[DennisTate]

]=Easy G (G²);60247048]Got ya. Thanks for the backdrop..

Pause, as the first dynamic in scripture is NEVER going beyond where the context of scripture was intended to go or saying something the intended audience of Scripture never was accepting of. For within Jewish culture, it has always been the thought that God is not a created being who evolved to become like he was. Within sci-fi/humanism, that thought is readily accepted--like-......

I am of the belief that our generation, although physically and mentally weaker by far than the generation of the first century church is set up to understand a level of meaning in scripture that could not have been comprehended previous to the information explosion of our era.


Jeremiah 23:20

The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

 

[DennisTate]

God always knew how to make a squirrel, dude, as that's apart of the nature of who God is. He's ALL knowing...and even when He goes into something, He knows how it'll go since it's already in His mind. ....
......

Depending on exactly how we define the term ALWAYS you could be correct!

 

[Avodat]

I do believe firmly that God always existed...but I question if something similar to time going by occurred before God knew exactly how to make a squirrel???

They are amazing little creatures that in a sense could be compared to prophets because when a hunter goes into the woods looking for a deer, the squirrels warn every animal for many kilometres that danger is approaching. Frankly, I have good reason to believe that many squirrels have actually been shot for doing exactly that...the comparison is obvious!

Time at all as we know it would not exist previous to the creation of space and from what I have read regarding fundamental energy it would ALWAYS have existed!

Hi there,

You are not permitted to question or teach anything on the MJ fora (nor any other fora in CF)that is not in accord with the Nicene Creed as is outlined in the SoP sticky at the head of this forum.

Two posters have said that what you are saying is blasphemous (and I agree). Would please stop posting things that are not permitted on CF.

 

[Chaplain David]

Chaplains Hat On
​

This thread needs to stay on topic. Let's get back on topic please unless the OP wants to close it then we can do that. Thank you.

Chaplains Hat Off
​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I am of the belief that our generation, although physically and mentally weaker by far than the generation of the first century church is set up to understand a level of meaning in scripture that could not have been comprehended previous to the information explosion of our era.

Although there are levels of comprehension that may not be present in certain generations, that does not mean that anything inscribed or inferred into scriptures is adequate comprehension...nor does it mean that the authors/writers of scripture to be taken beyond what they discussed. Reading a text of scripture about the Lord creating the world and trying to create a theory that says time has always existed and there were "multiple big bangs" is neither science or scripture.

Depending on exactly how we define the term ALWAYS you could be correct!

Not about how WE define it...but how the authors of scripture/the context it occurred in defines it....and how scripture reconciles with scripture.

It all goes back to whether or not the Word of God is in focus/true study occurs or if we make it up as we go along.

Seeing how Herbert Armstrong was mentioned earlier at one point as being an inspiration for how scripture is approached, some of the conclusions on certain things is not surprising since he often did the same..even though he was corrected on it.

 

[DennisTate]

.....


Time was created by God, according to scripture...as before the existence of time (which is temporal), there was and always will be the realm of Eternity. Now, if discussing things from that perspective, better theories than fundamental energy would be things such as String Theory.

Yes, String Theory is exactly what I am talking about!

String theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The idea of invisible higher dimensions of space-time give us theists a foundation for a discussion with Richard Dawkins Ph. D. and others. The Apostle Paul did say to become somewhat like all men in order to influence some of them in the right direction.

I am also talking about The Anthropic Principle and the Cyclic Model of the Universe which is what actually was shown to one of those people who had a near death experience!

Science - near-death experiences

A NDE advanced biological and medical research

After his NDE, Mellen-Thomas Benedict brought back a great deal of scientific information concerning biophotonics, cellular communication, quantum biology, and DNA research. Mellen-Thomas Benedict currently holds six U.S. patents. (Dr. Ken Ring)

(6)

A NDE supports astrophysical research

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's NDE supports a number of scientific theories such as: an infinite number of Big Bangs, the reality of zero-point space, a better understanding of black holes. Mellen-Thomas Benedict believes in the future science will be able to quantify spirit. (Dr. Ken Ring)

(7)

A NDE advanced molecular chemistry

Olaf Swenson had a NDE from a botched tonsillectomy at the age of 14 for which he experienced a timeless spaceless dimension which physicists call the "Omega Point". Because of the information gained from his NDE, he later went on to develop over 100 patents in molecular chemistry. (Dr. Melvin Morse)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, String Theory is exactly what I am talking about!

String theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The idea of invisible higher dimensions of space-time give us theists a foundation for a discussion with Richard Dawkins Ph. D. and others. The Apostle Paul did say to become somewhat like all men in order to influence some of them in the right direction.

String Theory, however, is not about the concept that Time has ALWays existed. For Time itself was created by the Lord---but Eternity was the only thing that has always stayed present.....and within that, the concept of Multiple Big BANGS only goes so far as to say certain dimensions for creatures such as angels/divine beings were made. Call the concept of how there were multiple heavens existing and discussing how they came into being.

The first heaven is that of the sky above us - the atmosphere of the earth. The second heaven is the abode of the stars and earth - “space” as we know it. The third heaven, however, was always the abode of God Himself, “heaven” as we would use the phrase. This was a common conception in Paul’s time, and was a convenient way of describing things. Hence, Paul was caught up into the presence of God, into the “third heaven ( 2 Corinthians 12:2 )”

As said best elsewhere at CRVoice Institute:

Jews of that time did not have the scientific knowledge that we take for granted, so they did not think of the world in scientific terms or descriptions. Instead they attempted to conceptualize the world in terms of what they knew, and usually described it visually. So, when they conceived of the universe, they constructed a multi-layered world, sort of like a large onion composed of various layers with the physical world in which human beings lived at the center. These layers were called "firmament" or shamayim (heavens or sky) in the Old Testament or "heavens" in the New Testament era. There are many other non-Biblical books and writings that also describe these layers. This model was still in use in the Middle Ages (1400s AD) when Dante wrote of the various levels of heaven and hell.

Most often this model contained seven heavens but in a few writings there were only three layers. Even though the number of layers was different these models of the universe shared some common traits. The lowest heaven, the core of the "onion," is the visible physical world that all people can see. In most of these models the second heaven is composed of water, a great sea, a firmament dividing the earth from the heavenly beings. This water that surrounded the earth became a common symbol for chaos and disorder that threatened to engulf the world (cf. Gen 6; see Speaking the Language of Canaan for a discussion of the symbolism of the cosmic waters). So often, these waters were understood to be gathered to await the coming day of judgment when they would once again be loosed to destroy the unrighteous. However, the third heaven was beyond the sight of human beings. It was the dwelling place of God and his attendant heavenly beings whom he would send to protect Israel and the righteous. So when Paul claims to have seen the risen Christ he is describing his experience in terms that he, and others, would readily understand. In that cultural context, he would have assumed that God had taken him to the region where it was possible to see spiritual beings, and the risen Christ.

Understanding this takes nothing away from Paul’s own testimony of an encounter with God. It simply acknowledges that Paul was a child of his day, that he lived in a pre-scientific world that had its own views of expressing and depicting the makeup of the physical world. So Paul described his experiences in the only way that he had at hand. His point was not to tell us how many levels of heaven there might really be. His point was to tell us that he had powerfully encountered the presence of God, in fact that he had physically seen the risen Christ.


​

Ministers such as Randy Alcorn spoke on it best in his books In Light of Eternity: Perspectives on Heaven and "Heaven" ( as seen here and here ).

I am also talking about The Anthropic Principle and the Cyclic Model of the Universe which is what actually was shown to one of those people who had a near death experience!

Science - near-death experiences

Not a reliable source of info, as it confirms consistency with science...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If that Bentley was a quack it still doesn't mean he's not a Christian and it's nobody's job to say that he's not except for God's. .

Feeling you on where you're coming from, as it concerns being cautious in determining who is or isn't the Lord's ...for there are many things which we'll never know fully until the other side---and as it concerns fruit, the danger inherent in that is that many times people can display bad fruit in one season of their life and yet we have NO idea how they are behind the scenes. ...and one can look like they're "In the club" and yet their motives..things that only the LORD can see....are not for serving Him but for glorifying self. This is what I John 2 noted when it said to not have anything to do with loving the world and described one aspect of the world to be pride/boasting---all issues of the heart, although cravings of the flesh and lust of the eyes are present. One could say that their attendance of synagouge or keeping of Torah is what determines if they're righteous...and on the outside, they'd look good--and yet, in their hearts, it was for show.

That applies for ALL of us. And if going by the logic of "Look at their fruit alone from what WE can see!!!", then there's danger. One may be able to say "Look, Bruh...I don't know what's inside 100%...but judging by the fruit you're making, I'd be concerned since the indicators can't be good." But the Bible strictly forbids us from making judgements on things we can never have full knowledge of.

There is a "spirit" amongst the church today that is, and has been, attempting to destroy mens' faith by pitting us against each other; whether it be over scriptural interpretation, customs, institutes, statements of faith, and even...who has the Holy Spirit. The Lord is working diligently to bring His bride to Himself. His Spirit has been poured out, and He is bringing men unto Himself..


If I can say...for many Churches crying "heresy!!! herectic!!!" (and for that matter, but for the law, saying things/coming up close to witch hunts and the things that used to happen in Inquisitions/Christian Jihad), it's the case that nearly all of them (in one form or another) are promoting by some of their actions the socially acceptable heresy that seems to get into nearly all churches of many kinds, specifically when it comes to failing to show hospitality to others who are fellow workers in Christ/promoting the level of "dirty politics" in the Church that others did back in the day when they disagreed/did so more out of being self-centered/self promoting/over-bearing ( 3 John 1:8-10 / 3 John 1 ).

As it relates to the sin of failing to show charity, overbearing, pride and boasting.... Plenty of people that've fit the description of Diotrophes in the Bible, as In example:

3 John 1:8-10/3 John 1
6They have told the church about your love. You will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of God. 7It was for the sake of the Name that they went out, receiving no help from the pagans. 8We ought therefore to show hospitality to such men so that we may work together for the truth.

9I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. 10So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.
11Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God. 12Demetrius is well spoken of by everyone—and even by the truth itself. We also speak well of him, and you know that our testimony is true.
​

Anyone studying Diotrophes will quickly see in him an example of what not to do (and what Marios is trying to convey) when Jesus made clear on the state of our attitudes He taught on servant-leadership in the church ( Matthew 20:24-26 / Matthew 20 / Philippians 2:6 /1 Timothy 3:2-4 / 1 Timothy 3 /1 Peter 5:2-4/ 1 Peter 5 ). For many times, its amazing that we're quick to be like watchdogs when we greet others....quick to sniff out error/bite and yet unable to sit down with the person/show the love of Christ in the simple things like breaking bread/having coffee and conversing.....showing compassion/mercy or taking time out to ask how one can be prayed for before we choose to denounce.

Some of the things we have disagreements on in the church are hilarious---though sobering at times. For as much as many describe how we're to "contend against error", it does often seem that's limited to a couple of things..and other things done in the process are ignored. Sincerly, when is the last time one saw a creed that said being obnoxious was "herectical".....or that it's of Christ to begin choosing to model opposite of kindness/hospitality and gentleness to God's servants (as did Diotrephes ), even in asking questions instead of attacking those whom disagreements arise with if it seems things do not seem clear?
=






Granted, there are certain things the Lord did say demonstrated who was..or wasn't apart of His own, such as I Corinthians 5 when discussing those Paul said to disconnect fellowship from when they were claiming Christ and yet justifying things He said He hated. And the same goes for what II Peter 1-2 discusses when it comes to the last days and seeing the things taught by false teachers. Many other scriptures besides that, Jude being one of them.

2 John 1:8-10
Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
​

There are differing levels to this as well. For when one claims to be a teacher or a prophet in the name of the Lord..and brings things into the camp that are NOT of Him---without repentance, then it becomes a serious issue that is not to be taken lightly.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Originally Posted by sacerdote

If that Bentley was a quack it still doesn't mean he's not a Christian and it's nobody's job to say that he's not except for God's. .
​

For when one claims to be a teacher or a prophet in the name of the Lord..and brings things into the camp that are NOT of Him---without repentance, then it becomes a serious issue that is not to be taken lightly.

Some of what is noted goes into the subject of what does it take to be either a false teacher or a false prophet..and that was something that has often come up whenever others such as Rick Joyner or Todd Bently come up since that was something that others brought to attention whenever they did things in the name of the Lord and others said it wasn't in line with scripture. What was often noted was "Well, prophets can mess up!!!" or "Because the prophet was correct a number of times, that means he can never be questioned..."

When I and others read the Word on the issue, there were many things that do not seem to renconcile with many of the comments given when it seems people equate "making no mistakes" with what it means to be a "prophet"---as if being "accurate" was all that was necessary despite how even Balaam prophesied correctly/never missed it and yet that wasn't enough to be considered a prophet. If interested, there are some places I believe may be of benefit to the discussion should anyone wish to continue it in the future....such as here or here in the future:

• A study of the book of Acts on the gift of Prophecy (here )

But apart from that, Something that stilll always perplexes me is the reality of what the Word of God says clearly and that often gets overlooked among numerous other passages in the Word that go contrary to the logic of saying "no falsehoods" is what makes one a prophet. I Kings 13:1-25 is one of the most stunning examples on the issue----as a prophet killed later by a lion was one that the Lord directly sent to King Jeroboam for bringing judgement on the nation of Israel with the Golden Calves/Idolatry.....and the Lord worked mightly through him, even protecting the man when the king stretched out his hand against the prophet and the king's hand was shriveled as a result. However, this prophet had been given STRICT orders not to eat or drink anything while on a mission...and later on, he died because he had listened to an old prophet who claimed to have a message from God rather than listening to God Himself---choosing to follow hearsay instead. For anyone able to read, the main question that comes up immediately is asking if the prophet, who brought the other one back, a false prophet of God or a true prophet of God. The man gave two prophetic words--with one being 100% false and one that was 100% true. So what was he? The bible calls him a prophet. IMHO, the prophet in the passage was truly gifted as a prophet, but he committed a crime worthy of death when he gave a false word (intentionally at that) to the man of God from Judah---and yet the Lord did not see Him as false and God still saw fit to prophesy through Him.


One must also consider the basic reality of the example in scripture where Nathan the Prophet made a MISTAKE when prophesying to David that God was with him in building the temple and that he had a green light to do it---which the Lord had to come back later to correct....


I'm still curious as to how we don't use the standard that occurs on Prophecy with other giftings....or with any of the other gifts. We don’t say that someone who exercises the “gift of helps” is an angel and then also expect them to be infallible in their helping. We wouldn’t say that if I failed at my attempt to help, then that automatically makes me a “false-helper”. None are arguing against the “gift of teaching” but I would guarantee that none of you thinks that any teacher is infallible. Why then hold this standard to only one out of the 29 or more spiritual gifts?



On the point of prophesy, I’ve always wondered what to make of things such as I Timothy 1:18 & the prophecies made about Timothy. Paul highly valued the gift of prophecy (I Corinthians 14:1), for through prophecy important messages of warning & encouragement…..and Timothy had been set apart for ministry when elders laid their hands on Him (I Timothy 4:14)…

And apparently, at this ceremony, several believers had prophesied about Timothy’s gifts and strengths. But if one of them prophesied and it was off, would that make them a "false prophet"?

Romans 12:6 – “And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith.”
​

Throwing this one out there as well on the issue as it may help on understanding on the issue...for if I’m to develop a definition for the type of prophecy being discussed in I Corinthians, then I have to try to find some example(s) in the scriptures themselves. We’re looking at the NT church as our context, so a few examples in Acts:

Acts 11:27-30 “Now at this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them named Agabus stood up and began to signify by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius. And in the proportion that any of the disciples had means, each of them determined to send a contribution for the relief of the brethren living in Judea. And this they did, sending it in charge of Barnabas and Saul to the elders.”


​

A few things we can observe. First, this prophecy came by the Spirit. This is a consistent rendering in all the translations I’ve looked up. Secondly, it was predictive in nature. It fortold a future event. Thirdly, it did serve to edify as it spurred the church to financially support one another.

Acts 13:1-4 “Now there were at Antioch, in the church there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who is called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus.”


​

Again, we can observe: First, they were labeled by Luke as “prophets and teachers”. Secondly, the charge came from the Holy Spirit through them while they were “ministering to the Lord and fasting”. Thirdly, it seemed to be a confirming word as it came to spur them to a work for which they had already been “called” And it wouldn’t be a stretch to say that it served to edify.

Acts 15:32 “Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message.”


​

Not much detail of the contents of the message nor if it was given in the form of an expositional form from scriptures or just a “speaking forth” from the Spirit. We do know that it encouraged and strengthened.

Acts 21:4,8-14 “After looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem…On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “This is what the Holy Spirit says ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’” When we heard this, we as well as the local residents began begging him not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, “What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but even to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” And since he would not be persuaded, we fell silent, remarking, “The will of the Lord be done!”


​

Now, admittedly, this particular passage presents more questions than answers. First the message for Paul “not to step foot in Jerusalem” came from or through “the Spirit”. He went anyway. Did he disobey the Spirit? Was that truly a command or a warning? Was it a test, like the one given to Abraham? Secondly, this is the first mentioning of female prophetesses in the New Testament but they were all virgins.. Also, to whom did they prophesy? the church? individuals?

Thirdly, after the dramatic demonstration by Agabus and the pleading of the congregation Paul still “would not be persuaded”. It’s hard to think that Paul was in disobedience since even their resolve was that “the will of the Lord be done”. Again, more questions than answers here. And moreover, on the term "prophet", it does not always seem to be the same throughout the NT and that using a "one-size fits all" approach may not do----like saying all prophets are like those within OT.




As one of my brothers in the Lord said best on the issue---in an article known as Are There Really Prophets in Today's Church?,

One of the difficulties for us in understanding the conception of prophet in our day is partly due to the fact that the Greek word translated prophet (propheteis) is really much broader than the English word 'prophet', which tends to have quite a specific ring. Truthfully, the Greek word can - just as easily - mean 'inspired speaker', or 'encouraging speaker', and some of the New Testament references don't necessarily go beyond that. Yet some Scriptures obviously speak of 'prophecy' in a predictive sense. Scriptures to consider here are Acts 11:27-30, Acts 13:1-3, Acts 15:32-34 and Acts 21:10-11. Moreover, the Holy Spirit's action of warning Paul and his companions against speaking in Asia may well have come through a congregation prophet (Acts 16:6-7).

The reference to the prophet Anna (Luke 2:36) does not need to be taken into our consideration of the New Covenant office of prophet since Anna prophesied well before Christ's sacrifice upon the cross making her one of the very last Old Covenant prophets.

A consideration of these Scriptures quickly shows that these congregational prophets were just that, that is, they prophesied of conditions which would affect church congregations or leaders. In Acts 11:27-30, Agabus prophesies that a famine would spread over 'the entire Roman world' - this would obviously affect congregations of Christians. The text clearly tells us that this occurred 'during the reign of Claudius' (Verse 28).



​

If prophets have the same level of authority in the NT as those in the OT, then what do you do with individuals such as Paul who IGNORED, who seemed to have freedom to disregard even the best prophets as seem when he disregarded Agabus and went on to Jerusalem since in his heart he already decided that was what God wanted and not even the believers who took Agabus’s prediction to mean he shouldn’t go could not stop PAUL? (Acts 21:10-14).

Moreover, to me, it is noteworthy after Christ’s resurrection, the Holy Spirit now dwells within every believer — making the mediation of a special prophet unnecessary since the gift of prophecy doesn’t function to mediate or legislate, but to strengthen, comfort and encourage believers, exposing sinful hearts of unbelievers for the hopes that they'll be convicted and receive salvation. 1 Corinthians 14:3, 14:24-25. If it comes to the NT gift of prophecy, it seems more than clear that those with the New Testament gift of prophecy, however, may make mistakes. This seems evident from 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22, which teaches a church to test all prophetic words — holding onto the good ones and throwing out the bad ones.​

 

[DennisTate]

Chaplains Hat On
​

This thread needs to stay on topic. Let's get back on topic please unless the OP wants to close it then we can do that. Thank you.
....]

Personally I am not at all offended if a topic goes all over the place...and by the way AWESOME COMMET ON TODD BENTLEY:

Originally Posted by sacerdote
If that Bentley was a quack it still doesn't mean he's not a Christian and it's nobody's job to say that he's not except for God's. .

Yes, a Christian can go through times of really being a mess...and yet the plan of God still comes through over the long term!

Here is another quotation from the visionary dream given to Rick Joyner that impressed me greatly....Wow...does this ever remind me of my experiences in the Worldwide Church of God!


The Hordes of Hell are Marching

Just when I thought I would collapse under the weight of this terrible discovery, a man who I had known and esteemed as one of the great men of God I had known, came forward to steady me. Somehow his touch revived me. He then greeted me warmly. He was a man that I had wanted to be discipled by. I had met him, but we did not get along well. Like a number of others I had tried to get close enough to learn from, I was an irritation to him and he finally asked me to leave. For years I had felt guilty about this, feeling that I had missed a great opportunity because of some flaw in my character. Even though I had put it out of my mind, I still carried the weight of this failure. When I saw him it all surfaced, and a sick feeling came over me. Now he was so regal that I felt even more repulsive and embarrassed by my poor state. I wanted to hide but there was not way I could avoid him here. To my surprise, his warmth toward me was so genuine that he quickly put me at ease. There did not seem to be any barriers between us. In fact, the love I felt coming from him almost completely took away my self-consciousness.

"I have waited eagerly for this meeting," he said.

"You were waiting for me?" I asked. "Why?"

"You are just one of many that I am waiting for. I did not understand until my judgment that you were one that I was called to help, to even disciple, but I rejected you."

"Sir," I protested. "It would have been a great honor to be discipled by you, and I am very thankful for the time that I did have with you, but I was so arrogant I deserved your rejection. I know that my rebellion and pride has kept me from ever having a real spiritual father. This was not your fault, but mine."

"It is true that you were prideful, but that is not why I was offended with you. I was offended because of my insecurity, which made me want to control everyone around me. I was offended that you would not accept everything that I said without questioning it. I then started to look for anything that was wrong with you to justify my rejection. I began to feel that if I could not control you that you would one day embarrass me and my ministry. I esteemed my ministry more than I did the people for whom it was given to me, so I drove many like you away," he said.

With a genuineness that is unknown in the realms of earth, he continued, "All children are rebellious, and think that the world revolves around them. That is why they need parents to raise them. Almost every child will at times bring reproach on his family, but he is still a part of the family. I turned away many of God's own children that he had entrusted to me for getting them safely to maturity. I failed with most of them. Most of them suffered terrible wounds and failures that I could have helped them to avoid. Many of them are now prisoners of the enemy. I built a large organization, and had considerable influence in the church, but the greatest gifts that the Lord trusted to me were the ones who were sent to me for discipline, many of whom I rejected. Had I not been so self-centered and concerned with my own reputation I would be a king here. I was called to one of the highest thrones. All that you have and will accomplish would have been in my heavenly account as well. Instead, much of what I gave my attention to was of very little true eternal significance. What looks good on earth looks very different here. What will make you a king on earth will often be a stumbling block to keep you from being a king here. What will make you a king here is lowly and unesteemed on earth. Will you forgive me?"

"Of course," I said, quite embarrassed. "But I, too, am in need of your forgiveness. I still think that it was my awkwardness and rebellion that made if difficult for you."

"It is true that you were not perfect, and I discerned some of your problems rightly, but that is never cause for rejection," he replied. "The Lord did not reject the world when I saw its failures. He did not reject me when He saw my sin. He laid down His life for us. It is always the greater who must lay down his life for the lessor. I was more mature. I had more authority than you, but I became like one of the goats in the parable; I rejected the Lord by rejecting you and the others that He sent to me."

As he talked, his words were striking me deeply. I, too, was guilty of everything that he was relenting of. Many young men and women who I had brushed off as not being important enough for my time were now passing through my mind. How desperately I wanted to return now and gather them together! This grief that I began to feel was even worse than I had felt about wasting time. I had wasted people! Now many of these were prisoners of the enemy, wounded and captured during the battle on the mountain. This whole battle was for people, and yet people were often regarded as the least important. We will fight for truths more than for the people for whom they are given. We will fight for ministries while running roughshod over the people in them. "And many people think of me as a spiritual leader! I am truly the least of the saints," I thought to myself.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Wow...does this ever remind me of my experiences in the Worldwide Church of God!

In the event that it was missed earlier..


A Worldwide Church of God, with Herbert Armstrong, isn't a Messianic group, although they do many things in line with MJism (i.e. celebrating Sabbath, Kosher, etc)...and as mentioned earlier, Armstrong supported a host of things unbiblical. This, of course, goes back to what was said earlier...in light of what you mentioned when saying it was Armstrong whom you learned from.

Originally Posted by DennisTate

One of the major reasons why I was so impressed with Garner Ted Armstrong and his dad Herbert W. is because they gave me material to work with that allowed me to win just about any debate with almost anybody as long as we took a sola scritura approach to the debate!!!!
​

Again, alot of what Hebert W noted was addressed later by members of the church...one of the most notable being how the use of medicine and doctors was discouraged because members were expected to place their faith in God for healing...and another being on long hair not being allowed for men, nor piercings.


Herbert Amstrong said many good things in line with scripture and yet was one who was often checked publically repeatedly for making claims he said were based on the Bible and yet many of them were far from what scripture even noted. ..with these theological doctrines and teachings referred to as Armstrongism....especially as it concerns his teachings of biblical prophecy in light of British Israelism ( discussed here). For that is a racist ideology toward Jewish believers in Christ, often confused for being Messianic) or other things. And to be clear, concerning how Armstrong taught a form of British Israelism, British Israelism is the belief that those of Western European descent, notably England (Ephraim) and the United States (Manasseh), are direct descendants of the ancient northern Kingdom of Israel. This theory is inconsistent with the findings of modern research on the genetic history of Jews..and has been discussed often, even though others holding to it may be in support of other things done by Messianics (i.e. Dietary Codes, Kosher, Celebrating Sabbath, etc). Grace Communion International, the lineal successor to Armstrong's original church, no longer teaches the doctrine, but many offshoot churches continue to teach it even though critics assert that British Israelism is inconsistent with the findings of modern genetics.

More on this has been shared on the boards before---as seen here and here and here. ..as well as explained by other solid MEssianic Ministries discussing the variations within what's known as "Two-House" and how it can easily be corrupted if not knowing the difference between Gentiles being apart of the Messianic Movement and British Israelism. For more, one can consider J.K McKee of TNN Online..as seen here:

• Ephraimite Error Critical Errors
• Anti-Semitism in the Two-House Movement - TNN Online

The fact that Armstrong was not for Birracial marriages and Interracial marriage was also discouraged as Armstrong emphasized requirements for Ancient Israelites (who, according to British Israelism, became Western Europeans) to remain racially and religiously separate from other nations....that is something that should be enough of a warning for one to be cautious when considering what the man has to say.


For more on that:

• Anglo/British Israelism Herbert W. Armstrong REFUTED!
• "How Anglo-Israelism Entered Seventh-day Churches of God: A history of the doctrine from John Wilson to Joseph W. Tkach
• "The United States and Britain in Prophecy: An Analysis of the Biblical Evidence

And for more on others who were impacted negatively by Armstrong:

• Herbert W. Armstrong inappropriate contentographer » The Painful Truth Blog
• The Painful Truth: A collection of Facts, Opinions and Comments from survivors of Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, The Worldwide Church of God and its Daughters". Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, Worldwide Church of God.
• Exit and Support Network: Aiding those spiritually abused by Worldwide Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God and all affiliated high demand offshoots". Exit and Support Network

. I'm still bothered by the sexual advances Garner Ted Armstrong made on a woman during a massage before he was asked to step down..

 

[Chaplain David]

Personally I am not at all offended if a topic goes all over the place...and by the way AWESOME COMMET ON TODD BENTLEY: Yes, a Christian can go through times of really being a mess...and yet the plan of God still comes through over the long term!http://www.heaven.net.nz/visions/the-hordes-of-hell-are-marching.htm

We'd like it to stay on topic Dennis. Hope you have a real nice day. God bless.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I am too busy to read a lot and it seems like everyone preaching has a book out.

What are some of the heresies or things that don't line up with scripture that Brother Joyner writes about?

Shalom

PS I've never heard of Rick Joyner

Go here, as it may help give more info:

• Strange Doctrines
• Rick Joyner’s ‘Final Quest’
• Prophets and Accountability
  
  
  
  
• Apostle’ Joyner Meets Apostle Paul
• Apostles’ From Well-Known Ministries
• God's Lightning Rod (from Charisma Magazine Online)
  
  
  
  

By no means do I agree with all accusations against the man, although there are some which I do see as credible concerns to have. ...especially in light of how often I used to get these emails from groups such as "The Elijah List" that'd frequently reference Rick Joyner. Personally, I'd equate the man to others who were believers and yet some of their teachings were doing damage to others ( 2 Timothy 2:16-18 , 1 Timothy 1:18-20, etc )

1 Timothy 1:9
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that law[a] is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

 

[Qnts2]

I do believe firmly that God always existed...but I question if something similar to time going by occurred before God knew exactly how to make a squirrel???

They are amazing little creatures that in a sense could be compared to prophets because when a hunter goes into the woods looking for a deer, the squirrels warn every animal for many kilometres that danger is approaching. Frankly, I have good reason to believe that many squirrels have actually been shot for doing exactly that...the comparison is obvious!

The biggest difference between the Tenakh and the NT is the indwelling Holy Spirit.

With the Holy Spirit as our guide and teacher, we can all 'hear' from God, unlike the Tenakh where only a selected few could 'hear' from God. In the Tenakh, the people needed to listen to the leaders, as commanded by the Mosaic law.

In the NT, things have really changed quite dynamically. Now, all who are believers are called upon to judge and discern whether teachings and/or prophesies are true.

So, Rich Joyner says he is a prophet and has given prophesies for the 'church' /all believers. His very statements mean, all believers who read his teachings and prophesies are now required to discern and judge his prophesy and teaching.

Of course the same goes for any person who claims to give prophesy or teachings. All prophesy and teachings are to be discerned and judged to see if they are true and all believers should be prepared to do this. There are people in the world looking for followers and will try to deceive believers into following them.

Add to that, as believers, if a person is found to sin, there are certain actions which must be taken. If they remain unrepentent, the scripture says they are to be 'turned' out of the assembly and over to Satan, to hopefully save their soul. I read that to mean, they are to be treated as non-believers. (Non-believers are not members of the assembly, and as outsiders, we are to share the gospel with them).

 

[DennisTate]

On the positive side I honestly feel that I may have learned more important things from the serious errors made by the leadership of the WWCG than I learned from what they got right!!!!!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Rich Joyner says he is a prophet and has given prophesies for the 'church' /all believers. His very statements mean, all believers who read his teachings and prophesies are now required to discern and judge his prophesy and teaching.

Of course the same goes for any person who claims to give prophesy or teachings. All prophesy and teachings are to be discerned and judged to see if they are true and all believers should be prepared to do this. There are people in the world looking for followers and will try to deceive believers into following them.

Add to that, as believers, if a person is found to sin, there are certain actions which must be taken. If they remain unrepentent, the scripture says they are to be 'turned' out of the assembly and over to Satan, to hopefully save their soul. I read that to mean, they are to be treated as non-believers. (Non-believers are not members of the assembly, and as outsiders, we are to share the gospel with them).

What you noted with the issue of unrepentent sin is the BIGGEST concern many have had on Joyner. For Todd Bently is living in ADULTEROUS sin, with a woman who he should not be married to. There's no way of justifying that--and yet there's approval given by Joyner to the marriage just as it was given to Bently during the Lakeland revival when he helped in commisioning him....and yet, it's still said that he is to be taken authoratively. That will never do...for you cannot be overseeing someone's "restorative process" and yet say nothing on how the new marriage should NEVER have happened nor can it continue.




For more:

• Call it Apostolic Fallout
• Is Bently Taking the ICA Down With Him?
• Todd Bentley - Subversive Influence
• Todd Bentley's New Wife Breaks Silence
  
  
  
  
• Todd Bentley has remarried, probably - Gentle Wisdom
• Todd Bentley update from Rick Joyner - Gentle Wisdom
  
  
  
• Todd Bentley and Rick Joyner Exposed - Operation Save America

By no means is it said that one cannot agree with something another says when it lines up with the Bible---as plenty of men who were decieved/into sin said accurate things. And they may've been used of the Lord. However, anyone approving of something counter to scripture and yet ignoring it...one questions the level of discernment they may have and how much they should be heeded to ( Matthew 15:13-15 ), no matter what their position is...and even more so when they're claiming to be authorative. I'm still an avid supporter of the Charismatic movement (discussed here in #42 , #56 , #189 , #210 , #218 and the thread Messianic Take on "You Shall Recieve Power" Acts 1:8) , but I must say that I'm glad for the civil war occurring in it when others note that not all things done in it are what it means to be Charismatic.



Discerning teaching is so key--and something ALL believers are called to do. As another said best:

G
Do Not Judge – Matthew 7

The following teaching from the Sermon on the Mount warns us not to judge:

Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, “Let me take the speck out of your eye,” and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)
​

Before we interpret those verses we must look at the sermon in Matthew that preceded it. The Sermon on the Mount concerns motives and sin. For example, the hypocrite prays to be “seen of men” (Matthew 6:5). Jesus’ sermon contains warnings against anger (Matthew 5:22), lust (Matthew 5:28), a command to love one’s enemies (Matthew 5:44) and a warning against loving money (Matthew 6:24). Jesus addresses many sin issues in a manner that would show everyone their sinfulness and need for the Gospel.

Jesus said, “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). This statement would have shocked Jesus’ hearers because the scribes and Pharisees were fastidious in keeping the law of external rules. A righteousness greater than theirs could only be the imputed righteousness of Christ that changes the heart. Without Christ’s righteousness we cannot enter the kingdom.

Given this context, what is the meaning of Matthew 7:1-5? The answer is that we are warned against judging how righteous others are in comparison to ourselves. This passage is a warning against self righteousness. As sinners, we tend to minimize or rationalize our own transgressions and magnify what we see wrong in others. Jesus warns about this because self-righteousness like that of the hypocritical Pharisees will keep a person out of the kingdom of God. It is the poor in spirit and the persecuted who will “inherit the kingdom of God” (Matthew 5:3, 10). These humbled people know they need a savior.


So does Matthew 7:1-5 teach that Christians should accept all teachers and teachings without discrimination? No. This passage concerns peoples’ motivations and the degree of their internal righteousness. These matters we are not to judge. Other passages, which we will examine later, are concerned with judging the content of a person’s teaching. Before we study those texts, let us examine other passages that are used to suggest that false teachers should not be corrected publicly.

......

Paul warns the Corinthians about wrongly passing judgment: “Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God” (1Corinthians 4:5). This passage indicates that there are some things we will not know until God’s future judgment. One of these things is mentioned in this passage: “the motives of men’s hearts.” We should avoid judging what we do not know. People’s motives are often hidden from us, but their teachings are public information.
Consider what Paul said in Philippians:

Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice. (Philippians 1:15-18)
​

It is not clear how Paul knew about these bad motives, but it is instructive to see his response. Because the content of their message was the true gospel, Paul rejoiced. This is in clear contrast to what he said elsewhere when the content of the message was wrong: “But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8). It is safe to assume that an angel from heaven would be a nice person with good motives. But a false gospel is damning and still must be rejected. There are many “nice people” with damnable false teachings.
The content of the wrong judgment that the Corinthians were making had to do with matters that cannot be known now:

Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. For who regards you as superior? And what do you have that you did not receive? But if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? (1Corinthians 4:6, 7)
​

As shown also in 1Corinthians 1, they were in the habit of judging who was superior and aligning themselves with human personalities. Paul is telling them not to do that. Who is superior spiritually is not known, and will not be known until God passes judgment in the future. But what can be known is “what is written.” There is an objective standard for judging teaching, but not for judging motives and the relative superiority of personalities.
We have seen a consistent theme so far. We are not to judge the motives or the relative degree of righteousness of other believers. But we must judge what is taught, whether it is in accordance with the true gospel and what has been written in Scripture.

There is another matter concerning judgment that also concerns judging teachings, but most people misunderstand it. This is the section of Scripture in Matthew 7 about judging by the fruits.



....


Jesus’ teaching that, “You will know them by their fruits,” is well known and often repeated. What is amazing, however, is that most of the time people come to conclusions about what this means that have nothing to do with the issues Jesus raises in Matthew 7. They often think of “fruits” as being character qualities, popularity, or the ability to do supernatural signs. I will discuss each of these ideas and then show what Jesus did mean.

Let us examine the passage. In Matthew 7 Jesus warned about false prophets:

Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:15-17)
​

First, personality traits are not fruits. On the outside, false prophets look like sheep. They are often very nice people who are kind, endearing, disarming, affable, winsome, and possess many other wonderful qualities. The false idea that these qualities are what Jesus means by “fruits” causes many people to be misled by false prophets. What they fail to realize is that the Dalai Lama has such qualities and he is hardly a Christian. Having a charming exterior is often the “sheep’s clothing.”


The number of one’s followers is not fruit. Many assume that popularity is a sign of good fruit. But the context shows something entirely different: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it” (Matthew 7:13, 14). The false religious leaders of Israel had more followers than Jesus did. This can hardly be what Jesus meant by “fruit.”
And signs and wonders are not fruits. Again we must consult the context:

So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:20-23)
​

People who call Jesus “Lord,” come in His name, and do works of power are false prophets if they refused to abide within God-given boundaries. This is an important concept. This is lawlessness.
The boundaries are those that God’s ordained spokespersons set. For us, they are the teachings of Christ and His apostles (See Hebrews 1:1, 2; 2:3, 4). Jesus was the prophet that Moses predicted and to whom we must listen (Deuteronomy 18:15; Mark 9:2-7; John 5:46, 47; et. al.).

The book of Hebrews contains this warning: “Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:18, 19). Lawlessness disregards the terms of the covenant. Jesus has revealed the terms and boundaries of legal belief and practice under the new covenant, like Moses did under the old. John warned about this in his second epistle: “Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son” (2John 1:9).

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The biggest difference between the Tenakh and the NT is the indwelling Holy Spirit.

With the Holy Spirit as our guide and teacher, we can all 'hear' from God, unlike the Tenakh where only a selected few could 'hear' from God. In the Tenakh, the people needed to listen to the leaders, as commanded by the Mosaic law.
.

Thank goodness for the Holy Spirit!!

 

[Lulav]

I would like to apologize to Sacredote for my previous post and state, here and now that I was not purposefully attacking him, but standing up for G-d and his word.

I was just being a 'watchman on the wall' if you will , and looking out for him as well as any others that come and read this thread.

I still stand by my first impression of TB, it has not changed because I believe it is not of my own knowledge but one greater.

I have personally seen and heard from people I knew, that went to this revival and even stopped back to Rick Joyners church. Everything I heard, not just the words, but the actions spoke of possession, and not of the Holy Spirit.

Please, if you value your place in heaven, do as Talmidim posted, run away from these two and others like them as fast as you can!

Henaynei, thank you for the confirmation!

 

[Chaplain David]

I would like to apologize to Sacredote for my previous post and state, here and now that I was not purposefully attacking him, but standing up for G-d and his word.

I was just being a 'watchman on the wall' if you will , and looking out for him as well as any others that come and read this thread.

I still stand by my first impression of TB, it has not changed because I believe it is not of my own knowledge but one greater.

I have personally seen and heard from people I knew, that went to this revival and even stopped back to Rick Joyners church. Everything I heard, not just the words, but the actions spoke of possession, and not of the Holy Spirit.

Please, if you value your place in heaven, do as Talmidim posted, run away from these two and others like them as fast as you can!

Henaynei, thank you for the confirmation!

Thank you sister Lulav. Now I must do the same. Of course I could have gone first but I had a little operation today and had a lot of things on my mind yesterday. I'll tell you about it later but for now just let me say that I believe God is working to heal my migraines through some spinal medical procedures where they deaden the nerves that go up to the head. Today was a test run and it went very wel.

Sister Lulav,

I believe that you are a gracious lady for apologizing to me. I could say many other good things about you as well. I respect you and you have also been a friend to me here as have many others. I am sorry if I caused you any distress (getting upset, stuff like that), and pray that you will accept my apology.

Thank you Sister.

Shalom