• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A few questions for Protestants

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,613
9,251
up there
✟378,895.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Ephesians 4:11-16 says the CHURCH is the guide and that passage doesn't even so much as mention the Bible! The truth is, the Bible is only part of the guide.

When that was written there was no Gentile Bible but they did use the Jewish scriptures as a foundation along with the oral teachings of Jesus. The church was not an institution at that point but a way of life among participants who lived what Jesus taught instead of making it another governing body over mankind. The church at that point had not been redirected back to the ways of man but remained true to the Kingdom of God.

Meanwhile, there are thousands of different Protestant sects and denominations bcoz they teach different doctrines. This confusing, fractured mess is hardly the unity that Jesus prayed for (John 17:21).

That is like saying there are hundreds of free nations but only the totalitarian ones can command the unity needed to make them strong.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,613
9,251
up there
✟378,895.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Jesus gave "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" to one man only - Peter
Yet many followers of this notion are not interested in the Kingdom but of their institution which rejected the Kingdom/governance of God to re-align themselves with the governments of man, whoring itself to the world in order to gain worldly power and authourity contrary to the good news of the Kingdom.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Meanwhile, there are thousands of different Protestant sects and denominations bcoz they teach different doctrines. This confusing, fractured mess is hardly the unity that Jesus prayed for (John 17:21).
And there are dozens of different Catholic denominations because they teach different doctrines. The best-known ones were the result of splits that occurred long before there were any Protestants.

So, we'd have to say that this situation is confusing, fractured and a mess, just like the one that you were interested in criticizing.
 
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,342
11,900
Georgia
✟1,092,355.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Is your interpretation of the Bible (doctrine) the "infallible standard of truth"? If not, who has this "infallible" doctrine you speak of?

Its the same "sola scriptura" test of doctrine available to even the "non-Christians" of Acts 17:11 as they tested Paul's teaching.

It is the same "sola scriptura" test demonstrated for us - by Christ Himself in Mark 7:6-13
 
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0

Fidelibus

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2017
1,191
303
68
U.S.A.
✟74,063.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
There are people and groups who might claim they are infallible, but they are not.

Could you give an example of who you believe these people or groups are?

They can make a big show of it and try to lord themselves over others. But God's leaders obey 1 Peter 5:3 >
"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

For the full comprehension of this passage com7fy8, I believe from my Catholic bible studies, verses 1,2, and 4 must be included.

"1 So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. 2 Tend the flock of God in your midst, overseeing not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. 3Do not lord it over those assigned to you but be examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory."

In these verses, St. Peter turns to the presbyters or elders who are the shepherds of the local churches in each of the Roman provinces. They are the officially appointed leaders and teachers of the Christian communities. Later this title came to be translated as "priest." He appeals to them as a fellow presbyter/priest. They have been anointed as shepherds to "tend the flock of God." Presbyter is a Greek word that identified a member of a group of priests who advised the bishop. Their rank was above that of deacons but inferior to bishops (see 1 Tim 5:17-18; Titus 1:5-8; Jam 5:14). Together they formed the presbytery, which under a bishop was the governing body of a community. A presbyter was commissioned by a bishop to teach, celebrate Mass, and baptize.

With that being said, how does Peter tell New Covenant shepherds to lead God's flock and why?

Have a Blessed day!
 
Reactions: Buzzard3
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
The belief is that the word of God (the Bible) contains all that is necessary for us to believe, NOT that some person or every person who reads is guaranteed to understand it correctly.
Pray tell, what is the point of having the Bible if no one can interpret it correctly?
 
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
When that was written there was no Gentile Bible but they did use the Jewish scriptures as a foundation along with the oral teachings of Jesus.
And who decided what the "Gentile Bible" should contain?
the church was not an institution at that point but a way of life among participants who lived what Jesus taught instead of making it another governing body over mankind.
In that case, why did the Spirit send Paul to Peter and the elders of the Church in Jerusalem to have what he was preaching checked and approved (Gal 2)?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
Why did Jesus give the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to one man only, Peter (Matt 16:19)?
 
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
And there are dozens of different Catholic denominations because they teach different doctrines.
False. There are eight Catholic "denominations" in the world but all believe exactly the same dogmas and doctrines, because they are all under the authority of the same Pope.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,613
9,251
up there
✟378,895.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
And who decided what the "Gentile Bible" should contain?
Predominantly Gentiles, which is why Paul played such a large part in their choices.

In that case, why did the Spirit send Paul to Peter and the elders of the Church in Jerusalem to have what he was preaching checked and approved (Gal 2)?
Paul wasn't building institutions but he certainly was used to justify doing so by those who sought to build hierarchies based on the traditional ones of man.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,613
9,251
up there
✟378,895.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Why did Jesus give the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to one man only, Peter (Matt 16:19)?
Because Peter was the only one to recognize that truth only came from the Father and not from man or the institutions created by man. The foundation of His church was that truth only came from the Father.
 
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
The church was not an institution at that point but a way of life among participants who lived what Jesus taught instead of making it another governing body over mankind.
In that case, please explain why Jesus told his disciples to take disputes to "the church" to be settled (Matthew18:17). Obviously "the church" was both an institution and and a governing body from the beginning.
 
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
14,699
6,623
Massachusetts
✟644,779.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Could you give an example of who you believe these people or groups are?
no

My impression is that not all in a group do this; plus God can make us able to tell the difference > 1 Corintthians 11:18-19 > Paul knew the Christians could tell whom God approved, in spite of how impostors could use politics to make it seem like they were the approved.

With that being said, how does Peter tell New Covenant shepherds to lead God's flock and why?

Have a Blessed day!
Lead by example, especially of the character of Jesus . . . because how we are in God's grace can spread to make others the same way, better than words can tell or religious acts can show > 1 Peter 4:9-10.
 
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,002
2,819
Australia
✟166,475.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

True, the Holy Spirit is our guide if we let him be.
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.


No. God gives us assurance.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.



So, let me leave you with this last question: For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day!

Christ is.

Now 2 questions for you, do you disagree with any of the above verses?

If you agree that the Holy Spirit is the teacher, that all scripture is
God-breathed and to be used for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, why is this not enough, in your view?
 
Reactions: com7fy8
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
The body, the community
What "body"? What "community"? They had the authority to settle disputes, so how did they obtain that authority if the church had no hierarchy or recognised leadership?

The Scriptures clearly contradict your claim that there was no "governing body" in the early Church - the fact that Jesus advised disciples to take disputes to "the church" for settlement is indisputable proof that there was indeed a "governing body" in the early Church.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SamInNi

God's Riches At Christ's Expense
Jan 4, 2022
121
105
Ireland
Visit site
✟36,740.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The obvious problem with singling out Peter as the one with ultimate authority in the Church (having the “keys” and being the “rock”) is the stubborn witness of the entire New Testament! If we assume that the papacy was established in Peter we would expect to find plenty of helpful evidence for it in Scripture, but we don’t. This highlights why Roman Catholic dogma rejects using Scripture alone to establish authority.

Let’s not forget that the overarching context for “the keys of the kingdom” in Matthew 16:19 is the identity of Christ (vs. 13-20). He had just asked His disciples: “But who do you say that I am?” We have to ignore the witness and balanced fullness of New Testament teaching to build a case that even remotely suggests Peter was the rock on which the Church was to be built and to whom special authority was given.

Later in Matthew 18 the right to bind and loosen is given to all believers who are in agreement under Christ’s headship, not just Peter: “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven” (v. 18).

Also, in Peter’s own letters (and by the way, in 1st Peter 5:1 he calls himself a “fellow elder”, very different to a powerful pope-like leader) he never hinted that he was the rock upon which the church was being built. In fact, writing to other believers, he confirmed that true believers are living stones who are built upon Christ Who is the cornerstone: “And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ” (see 1st Peter 2:4-8).

True believers are being built together on Christ, not on a mere man (consider Acts 10:26). This is further confirmed in Ephesians 2:20-22: “...having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.” Christ alone is the Church's only sure foundation.

When thinking about Peter in general and given the lack of evidence, it’s fair to ask if Peter was ever in the ancient city of Rome. There is no strong evidence that he lived and died there. Paul wrote his letter to the Roman believers in the mid-to late 50s and doesn't mention Peter even once. He refers to many other people (see Romans 16), but not Peter, a striking oversight when writing to the Christians in Rome who had been there “for many years” (see Romans 15:23).

Wasn’t Peter supposed to have been reigning in pope-like authority in Rome from the 40s to the 60s? Peter had been entrusted with bringing the Gospel message to the Jews. Why would he have travelled so far west to Rome? (Consider Galatians 2:7.)

Ultimately the only worthwhile argument Roman Catholic apologists have is confined to 1st Peter 5:13, where it’s claimed that “Babylon” proves conclusively that Peter was writing from Rome.
__

In discussions about any unique Roman Catholic belief the problem is always one of authority. Do we need to look beyond the witness of Scripture to define the Papacy? Yes, we most certainly do. If we allow the fullness of Scripture to define Christian living and Church authority we discover a completeness that makes unique Roman Catholic dogma superfluous.

For more thoughts on Roman Catholic Tradition see HERE.
 
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
You've obviously misinterpreted this verse. If "you have no need for anyone to teach you", why is St. John writing to that community and TEACHING them?

If "you have no need for anyone to teach you", why did Jesus send apostles to TEACH?: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations ... TEACHING them to obey everything I have commanded you.”” Matthew 28:18-20

If "you have no need for anyone to teach you", why did Christ send "some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, For the perfecting of the saints" (Eph 4:11-12)?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SamInNi

God's Riches At Christ's Expense
Jan 4, 2022
121
105
Ireland
Visit site
✟36,740.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed

A secure context for 1st John 2:27 is verse 24: "...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning". Being rooted in sound teaching, which is confirmed by the ongoing witness of the Holy Spirit, is the best defence against the deception of anti-Christian beliefs (v. 26).

We must distance ourselves from bad teaching. See HERE for more on John's position on this.

Christ has equipped His Church to continue in the fullness of the sound teaching we have received from the prophets and apostles, written down as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. That's why we do not need unique Roman Catholic dogma. It adds to Scripture and in many places undermines its authority and even contradicts it.
 
Upvote 0