A few questions for Protestants

[Clare73]

Thank for the exchange.

I hope this thread CLEARLY demonstrates to all the dangers of Sola Scriptura

What else is there?

There is no institution on earth that has been error-free since the apostles.

 

[timothyu]

That's not in any Bible I've seen.

Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven

 

[Clare73]

Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven

The kingdom of God for which we pray is now, in the hearts of those where by faith he reigns and rules, and for which we pray to increase by the gospel.
The kingdom of God is invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21), it is not of this world (John 18:36),
it is of the spiritual world.

How is this related to the OP?

 

[timothyu]

The kingdom of God for which we pray is now, in the hearts of those where by faith he reigns and rules, and for which we pray to increase by the gospel.
The kingdom of God is invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21), it is not of this world (John 18:36),
it is of the spiritual world.

How is this related to the OP?

Yes it is in the hearts providing we live according to putting the will of God before our own will, thus loving all as self. It is the basis of the governance in the Kingdom to come, a governance/Kingdom that runs contrary to the world man has made in our own image and the self serving foundation we build our own governance/governments/kingdoms upon.

The OP? All intuitions of man are build upon the model throughout history used in the governance of man by man, a form of governance that runs contrary to the Kingdom. Religion also, which is even more responsible for leading people away from the Kingdom/governance of God and back into the world of man, as it is supposed to represent the governance of God, yet thrives on being a government of man built upon the same foundations of government throughout history and for 1700 years has aligned itself with other governments of man. Jesus did not come to establish a religion or government of man, but a way of life free of these human failed institutions.


.

 

[Clare73]

Yes it is in the hearts providing we live according to putting the will of God before our own will, thus loving all as self. It is the basis of the governance in the Kingdom to come, a governance/Kingdom that runs contrary to the world man has made in our own image and the self serving foundation we build our own governance upon.

Off topic.

 

[timothyu]

Off topic.

Nope as I've explained a number of times.

 

[Soyeong]

Under the Protestant/Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) theological system, is it your belief, and would you agree, there exists no person or no institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false for Christians when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

If you happen to answer yes to this question, my next question would be.... under this theological system, would you agree there is no sure way you could have absolute assurance of anything you believe being true? In other words, there is no way of knowing the truth?

Yet, Jesus says, "Know the truth and the truth will set make you free." (John 8:32)

So, let me leave you with this last question: For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day!

God's nature is the foundation of truth. The Bible often uses the same words to describe aspects of God's nature as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), which is because it is God's instructions for how to express, experience, believe in, and testify about aspects of His nature, which is why God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142). So by doing doing good works in obedience to God's law, we are experiencing and testifying about His goodness, which is why they bring glory to God (Matthew 5:13-16). Jesus is the radiance of God's glory and the exact expression of God's nature, which he expressed through living in sinless obedience to God's law, so he is the physical manifestation of the truth and the way to experientially know and see the Father, which is eternal life (John 14:6-7, John 17:3). The Spirit had the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), again God's law is truth, and the fruits of the Spirit are all aspects of God's nature. In John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

 

[Clare73]

Nope as I've explained a number of times.

Not to me.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[timothyu]

Not to me.

Yet there it is in print above. No further need for me to respond.

 

[Clare73]

Yet there it is in print above. No further need for me to respond.

Works for me. . .

 

[Fidelibus]

So then the "protesting Catholics" found one Truth in scripture and an opposing one in their church traditions.

You will have to be more specific on your chronological timeline for a valid response

Christ in Mark 7:6-13 found one Truth in scripture and an opposing one in supposedly "infallible" nation-church tradition of His day.

-In Mk.7: 6-8, Jesus responds to their attack by calling them hypocrites (a Greek word that refers to one in Greek drama who plays a part) and quoting from Isaiah 29:13. In that passage the prophet Isaiah chastised the people of Jerusalem for ignoring God's word delivered by His holy prophets and paying more attention to the additions to the Law that are only human precepts and to the letter rather than the spirit of the Law.

Also, Bob, in verses 9-13, Jesus is asking them is it right to set aside the commandments of God in order to uphold their traditions? He will make the charge that they have used "tradition" to nullify the Law of God three times in verses 7: 8,9 and 13. First, Jesus gives an example of their flagrant abuse of the Law from the fourth of the Ten Commandments that requires one to honor one's father and mother (Ex 20:12; Dt 5:16) and the prohibition against cursing one's parents that imposes the death penalty (Ex 21:17; Lev 20:9). He accuses the Pharisees of manipulating these covenant commands that requires caring for aging parents by declaring portions of their wealth to become qorban, a Hebrew word meaning a gift of something like property or money that is dedicated to God, thus, allowing them to neglect their parents. Jesus denounces them for this practice.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: (CCC 2218)

Giving gifts to the Temple does not exempt the covenant people from the obligation of honoring their parents through their finical support.

-And from Scripture...

The fourth commandment reminds grown children of their responsibilities toward their parents. As much as they can, they must give them material and moral support in old age and in times of illness, loneliness, or distress. Jesus recalls this duty of gratitude. --Mk 7:10-12.

For the Lord honored the father above the children, and he confirmed the right of the mother over her sons. Whoever honors his father atones for sins, and whoever glorifies his mother is like one who lays up treasure. Whoever honors his father will be gladdened by his own children, and when he prays, he will be heard. Whoever glorifies his father will have long life, and whoever obeys the Lord will refresh his mother. ---Sir 3:2-6.

O son, help your father in his old age, and do not grieve him as long as he lives; even if he is lacking in understanding, show forbearance; in all your strength do not despise him.... Whoever forsakes his father is like a blasphemer, and whoever angers his mother is cursed by the Lord. ---Sir 3:12-13

This is the value of sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition - as Christ demonstrates in Mark 7.

Sola Scriptura (SS) is a 16th century man-made invention. Not to mention un-biblical. Sorry.

No wonder the first century Christian church reports this about how Paul's doctrine was being tested - "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul - were SO" Acts 17:11

FYI Bob, the first century Christian Church did not consist of a single Protestant/non-denominational church or sect, yours included (for the SDA church, 1860's is what my studies show) Another bit of historic for you... The first century Christians did not have the bible to study from. The bible would not come into existence for another couple of hundred or so years. Also, the N.T. writings had not yet been decided. The Bible was not put under one cover (by the Catholic Church) until the Councils of Hippo (393) and 3rd Council of Carthage (397) accepted the official list of books, which is the same as used by the Catholic Church today.

And obviously they include the RCC in that list of what they view as "other denominations" that have some doctrinal error that is not at all approved of by the Holy Spirit.

-First off, my friend, The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Denominations is a Protestant idea and should properly be used in the context of Protestant communions of faith.

I would agree that they would always consider that error is not coming from the Holy Spirit.

So the question remains, who or what authority within Protestant/non-denominational churches or sects determines it?

How is that helping your point?

The point is about "authority" Bob. That being who or what authority within Protestant/non-denominational churches or sects has the final say so? Which of the many thousand Protestant/non-denominational churches or sects determines who is correct, or who is incorrect in matters of faith and morals, disagreements of any Bible passage, etc.? Is it your own Seventh Day Adventist church? the Southern Baptist Church? the Anglican church? I could list thousands of others, but I think you get the idea where I'm going. So, who, or what is the answer?

And by the way, who is this "They" you keep referring too? Is it yet to be determined authority of Protestantism? Could you be a little more specific?

Not guiding them "on that point that is in error" just as they would conclude when they see errors taught by the RCC and others.

There is that "They" again"!!!

That is the peril of not following the Holy Spirit on those points of error. It is not the fault of the Holy Spirit or the fault of scripture, or the fault of the Word of God and obviously since they do claim to see the error taught by the RCC and other denominations on certain points - "Sola Scriptura" is in fact working to reveal that error.

-Again Bob, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. Denominations is a Protestant idea and should properly be used in the context of Protestant communions of faith. And please remember, this is not a thread about the Catholic Church or her teachings. It is a thread for non-Protestants to ask Protestants questions. There is a thread to ask questions or comment on the Catholic/Christian faith.

If they could "see no error" and yet know so many differences do exist -- they would be "confused indeed" and such is not the case.

Yes, I agree, the unbiblical/ man-made, and recent doctrine of sola scriptura can be very confusing!

1. God's Word cannot be blamed for error found in the Catholic church or in any other church.

2. Saying that God's Word showed them error exists in the Catholic church and in others as well - does not lead to the conclusion "so do not trust God's Word".

If the Church can err, to whom shall we have recourse in our difficulties? I know, SS adherents will say Scripture. FYI, we Catholics do not doubt that we must believe in and consult Scripture, but what if our difficulty pertains to Scripture itself? How can we find an answer? Do you really think Our Lord went to the trouble to establish His Church just to leave us in anarchy with no recourse on matters which could or could not damn us?

That is not logical.

Bob, all if not most Protestant denominations shout their claims with equal assurance that their interpretation of Scripture is accurate, which would leave all others inaccurate. I mean, come on man, we see it all the time, right here on this "Christian Forum." Now to say Our Lord has not left us any guides to help us choose the good from the bad in an environment that He knew contained much error, is to say that He wishes us to perish, which we know He does not. --(Matt 18:17). How else can this be understood than Our Lord sends us to the Church in our differences?

Let's think about this. If the Church can err, and God commands us to go to the Church, then this means God wishes to deceive us. So, Bob, does it make sense that God would send all of His lambs to the slaughter by commanding them to consult a Church that can contain error?

No.... that is what's not logical!!

Which brings us back to one of the questions in my OP, when St. Paul says in 1 Tim.3:15. Why would he call the Church the "pillar and ground of truth" if it could contain error?

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are in agreement.

Yup

So in that SAME Chapter Jesus said "Sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy word IS Truth" John 17:17
instead of "do not lead them to trust Thy word as truth - rather may they trust consensus in church tradition".

-Thank you for posting this verse from St. John Bob. And I will give you a big "AMEN." I believe what St. John is saying 100%. However, I do not agree with your personal and fallible interpretation of it. Sorry. But let's look a few verses earlier and please answer a couple of questions for me. (remember, this is a thread to ask protestant questions. In John 17:11-17, what four gifts does Jesus ask Father God to give His disciples? Also, What do you believe is the active power of "truth" in John 17:17: consecrate them in the truth?

And they are - each denomination is fully satisfied in its own communion - even Catholics are pretty happy "to be Catholic".

Again Bob, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. Denominations is a Protestant idea and should properly be used in the context of Protestant communions of faith. And as far as being happy to be a Catholic?? I am very happy belonging to the Church Jesus Christ founded!! Can I get a big AMEN!!

But that does not prove that all denominations are correct in all their doctrine.

Our Lord taught one religion and founded one Church, singular, not multiple ones. The Protestant denominations clearly fall into this category with their thousands of denominations, all with beliefs opposing the other. Consider the verse, "And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25. Are not Protestant denominations divided among themselves with little hope to reunite?

Consider this verse, "And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25. Are not Protestant denominations divided among themselves with little hope to reunite? Also, Bob, consider the verse, "And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful." Colossians 3:15. One body is one Church and cannot possibly be thousands of opposing denominations.

So, Bob, to address your quote above, I say among the adherents of sola scriptura? Yes, I firmly agree, and showed why in my posts above.

Yes and 1 Tim 1 points to division and dissension in that very same church.

See above post.

Gal 1:6-9 says "even though WE (apostles) or an Angel from heaven - should preach to you a different Gospel other than has already been given - let him be accursed"

First off Bob, this passage does not say "apostles." You are conveying this in your Protestant literalist interpretation of this passage. I always thought adding to scripture was a no-no in Protestantism. Oops.....

Now Bob, the Catholic Churches teaching on these passages, (Gal.1:6-10) that I fully believe, is that this part of the letter gives an indication of the degree of displeasure Paul feels for the Galatian communities he founded. He is so upset and so anxious to address their problems that he does not give the blessing or thanksgiving for the community that he normally gives at the beginning of his other letters to other Christian communities (see Rom 1:8; 1 Cor 1:4; 2 Cor 1:3; Eph 1:2; Phil 1:3; Col 1:3; 1 Thes 1:2; 2 Thes 1:3)

-Not only that, in verses 6-10, St. Paul clearly states his reasons for writing this letter to the churches of Galatia and why he is so personally offended. So, Bob, why is Paul upset with the faith communities he founded in Galatia? What accusations does he level against them?

We read the NT and see what doctrine they were teaching. And comparing that to what we see around us today - shows that bad doctrine has crept in - just as Paul said it would in Acts 20.

Again Bob, as Catholic, I will say... Amen brother! I believe in these Scripture passages, and the bible, 100%!!! However, that does not mean I agree with your personal and fallible interpretation of them. I do, as I have mentioned before, trust in the teachings of the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church! And as far as the verses, I believe to get the full meaning/context of what Paul was saying, we must include verses 17-19, and 31-35. In doing so, we can see there were probably two reasons why Paul did not go to Ephesus:

1.... St. Paul would have had to change ships at Assos to go back to Ephesus which would have resulted in addition time he did not want to waste.

2....he left Ephesus under difficult circumstances, and he did not want any reoccurring conflicts to delay him.

So, he decided to ask the presbyters at Ephesus to come to him. The presbyter in the early Church was a member of a group (we now call them "priests") who advised a bishop and taught the faithful. Together they formed the presbytery, which, under the leadership of a bishop, was the governing body of a faith community. The presbyter was commissioned by the bishop (in this case St. Paul) to teach, celebrate the Eucharist, and baptize. Their rank is above that of deacons but below bishops. In some translations the Greek word presbyter is translated "elder." Paul will advise Timothy and Titus on the qualifications of a presbyter in 1 Timothy 5:17-22 and Titus 1:5-6. I suggest Bob, seeing the CCC 1544-45, 1554, 1562, 1567-68. You can find it online.

On a side note, Bob, Paul's farewell address to the ministers of the church at Ephesus is his third long discourse in Acts: 1. Paul's Gospel message to the Jews of Antioch, Pisidia (13:17-41). 2. Paul's speech to the Gentiles in Athens (17:23-31). 3. Paul's farewell address to the Christian ministers of Ephesus (20:17-35).

-So, Bob, the way I see it, Paul's farewell address to the priests of Ephesus is essentially his last will and testament. What do you think? If you agree, what are the main points of Paul's address?

Obviously in all the various doctrine added over the centuries and variations seen today - that did happen. The much predicted "Falling away" of 2 Thess 2 - has indeed been seen in history.

Whose history are you speaking of? As we both know, Protestant history was non-existent up until five hundred years or so ago, where the Catholic Church has been in existence for over two thousand years. And the best part of that, it was founded by Jesus Christ Himself! Thank you, Jesus!! Now you being a Seventh Day Adventist, would you care to inform us who founded the church you are a member of, and what year was it founded. And for a bonus question, do you believe the church you are a member of, is the Church of Christ that is:

1. The true Church of Christ to always practice the perfection of Christian life?

2. The true Church of Christ that must be one in unity and doctrine?

3. The true Church of Christ that ought to be resplendent with miracles?

4. The true Church of Christ that ought to always practice the perfection of Christian life?

5. The true Church of Christ that is universal?

6. The true Church of Christ that is ancient?

7. The true Church of Christ that is perpetual?

And finally, Bob...

8. The true Church of Christ that must be fruitful?

In closing Bob, I am sorry to you and everyone else, for my lengthy post, but it is obvious I do not have the gift of trying to get my point across in a few sentences. I envy those of you that can! Hope I didn't bore you too much. Ha-ha!

A Blessed Day and Evening to all![/quote][/quote]

 

[timothyu]

Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Matthew 23:27Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

 

[HARK!]

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[Fidelibus]

Thank you Hark for your reminder of the rules and regulations within this Christian Forum. I will be the first to admit that there are times I push the envelope to the limit. However, I am going to submit a question to my Protestant/non-denominational brethren for further debate. However, I have notice there is a thread titled, " Question on the Holy Spirit and Biblical Interpretation", so I am thinking this thread may be more appropriate. So, not being sure, I will post it in both threads.

The question is:

"Are there Christians who are being guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations of Scripture, who have belief systems that are not exactly the same?"




Thank You for your responses in advance.

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[com7fy8]

Under the Protestant/Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) theological system, is it your belief, and would you agree, there exists no person or no institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false for Christians when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

If you happen to answer yes to this question, my next question would be.... under this theological system, would you agree there is no sure way you could have absolute assurance of anything you believe being true? In other words, there is no way of knowing the truth?

Yet, Jesus says, "Know the truth and the truth will set make you free." (John 8:32)

So, let me leave you with this last question: For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day!

There are people and groups who might claim they are infallible, but they are not. They can make a big show of it and try to lord themselves over others. But God's leaders obey 1 Peter 5:3 >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

 

[timothyu]

"Are there Christians who are being guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations of Scripture, who have belief systems that are not exactly the same?"

Many claim it, but few are guided, as Jesus defined who the HS would come for, as a comforter for those of the Kingdom to keep them from falling to the wayside as shown in the parable of the sower. His teaching focused on the Gospel of the Kingdom and He said that was why He was sent, to proclaim the good news and bring it into being. Any other claims to the HS is misrepresentation, yes there are many who not following this have belief systems not the same.

 

[Buzzard3]

The bible is certainly the guide

Right there you have stated one of the fundamental errors of Protestantism.

Ephesians 4:11-16 says the CHURCH is the guide and that passage doesn't even so much as mention the Bible! The truth is, the Bible is only part of the guide.

and we all have the Holy Spirit within us to help us along. That's why He was sent.

The Holy Spirit works through the hierarchy of the Church - headed by one man, Peter (Matt 16) - to produce doctrinal truth. Once this model is abandoned (ie, Protestant individualism), the result is not only doctrinal confusion, but doctrinal error as well.

We have elders and pastors who are to uphold the teachings in the bible, but no, they aren't infallible. No one is infallible other than God.

Jesus gave "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" to one man only - Peter (Matt 16). Peter therefore was given SUPERNATURAL authority over what the Church teaches as doctinal truth. This supernatural authority includes supernatural - ie, INFALLIBLE - guidance regarding doctrinal truth. Hence, the Catholic Church teaches that the Pope (Peter's successor) is INFALLIBLE - ie, supernaturally protected from teaching doctrinal error - as regards faith and morals.

I do have the assurance to what the bible says is true. That is the word of God. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, so we trust His words and what He set forward for us to do (The Great Commission).

Meanwhile, there are thousands of different Protestant sects and denominations bcoz they teach different doctrines. This confusing, fractured mess is hardly the unity that Jesus prayed for (John 17:21).

 

[Buzzard3]

Our infallible standard of truth is the Word of God. And we measure all doctrine by that standard

Is your interpretation of the Bible (doctrine) the "infallible standard of truth"? If not, who has this "infallible" doctrine you speak of?

 

[Albion]

Is your interpretation of the Bible (doctrine) the "infallible standard of truth"? If not, who has this "infallible" doctrine you speak of?

The belief is that the word of God (the Bible) contains all that is necessary for us to believe, NOT that some person or every person who reads is guaranteed to understand it correctly.