A Critical Discussion on Soul Sleep

[BillMcEnaney]

You might want to study the way the word "spirit" is used in the NT.

If my spirit returns to God when I die, will it sleep while it travels to him and awaken when it arrives? Did it live before Dad's sperm fertilized Mom's egg? If it did, that sounds Platonic because, in his Republic, Plato describes immortal souls waiting for bodies. He even thought people were souls who wanted to stay disembodied. In the Phaedo, Plato's dialogue about the immortality of the soul, Socrates's friends wonder whether they can follow him when he leaves for Hades. So he says something like, "Sure, if you can catch me." By the way, Hades isn't Hell. Hell is Tartarus.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

If my spirit returns to God when I die, will it travel unconsciously to him and awaken when it arrives?

IMO, the Spirit is the most fundamental part of us. It's why people have NDEs and can see themselves when their spirit has left their body. There are some quite remarkable stories of NDEs. Many people go to heaven or hell after they have been pronounced dead. Still, others remain near the area of their body. These stories can be quite remarkable. One person was born blind, and when they died, they "saw" someone who had been dead for some time and was able to describe them perfectly when they came back to life even though they never saw them IRL.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Isaiah 2:2-4 refers to the Millennium period.

Who told you that?

Hebrews 12:23, talks about the faithful people being enrolled in heaven; in the Book of Life. It doesn't say we go there.
It is obvious to most plain English readers that Zechariah Prophesies about the end times. Zechariah 8:1-8 awaits fulfilment by the faithful Christian peoples.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon Hebrews 12:23 (the reference is to the dead already received into the heavenly city, the figure being drawn from civil communities on earth, whose citizens are enrolled in a register).

Where Christ remains for Eternity, is on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

Not physically on earth, but in the church of the firstborn, which is the New Jerusalem, the bride of Christ, the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, our mother, or as Peter puts 1Peter 2:4As you come to Him, the living stone, rejected by men but chosen and precious in God’s sight, 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For it stands in Scripture:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone,
a chosen and precious cornerstone;
and the one who believes in Him
will never be put to shame.”

Which are the stones in Rev 21:19
Otherwise what house was Peter talking about and what was Christ the chief cornerstone of?

 

[BillMcEnaney]

I plan to reply to this article about soul sleep.

An article from the Adventist Review

 

[BillMcEnaney]

IMO, the Spirit is the most fundamental part of us. It's why people have NDEs and can see themselves when their spirit has left their body. There are some quite remarkable stories of NDEs. Many people go to heaven or hell after they have been pronounced dead. Still, others remain near the area of their body. These stories can be quite remarkable. One person was born blind, and when they died, they "saw" someone who had been dead for some time and was able to describe them perfectly when they came back to life even though they never saw them IRL.

I agree with you, Jesse. So you might enjoy the NDE video I posted in when I introduced myself here at the forum. No one mentioned that video, so maybe everyone else ignored. Either way, I think its panelists give strong evidence against soul sleep.

 

[keras]

Who told you that?

Isaiah 2:2-5 is a Prophecy about the Millennium when Jesus will reign as King over the world. Paralleled by Zechariah 14:16-21

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon Hebrews 12:23 (the reference is to the dead already received into the heavenly city, the figure being drawn from civil communities on earth, whose citizens are enrolled in a register).

Sure, the names of all the righteous, faithful people are Written in the Book of Life, kept in heaven. No one goes to heaven and when the Book of Life is opened, Revelation 20:11-15, those whose names are found in it will receive immortality.
As Paul prophesies in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, there will be some people alive at the end of the Millennium, whose names are Written in the BoL, and who will be instantly transformed into immortality without dying.

Which are the stones in Rev 21:19
Otherwise what house was Peter talking about and what was Christ the chief cornerstone of?

Eternity is a whole different ball game. Do not try to confuse that future with the present reality.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Isaiah 2:2-5 is a Prophecy about the Millennium when Jesus will reign as King over the world. Paralleled by Zechariah 14:16-21

Sure, the names of all the righteous, faithful people are Written in the Book of Life, kept in heaven. No one goes to heaven and when the Book of Life is opened, Revelation 20:11-15, those whose names are found in it will receive immortality.
As Paul prophesies in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, there will be some people alive at the end of the Millennium, whose names are Written in the BoL, and who will be instantly transformed into immortality without dying.

Eternity is a whole different ball game. Do not try to confuse that future with the present reality.

Christ was already ruler of the kings of the earth and reigning from His glorious throne.
Revelation 1:
4John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the seven Spirits before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

1 Corinthians 15: 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
The verb "must" is never used in the future tense, and "reign" here is also in the present tense.
And since He was reigning until death was destroyed, and death wasn't destroyed until Revelation 21:4, there can be no earthly millennium.

The last days are specifically tied to the time of the Apostles. What are the following the "last days" of?
Acts 2:17
In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
Acts 3:21Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets. 22For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must listen to Him in everything He tells you.f 23Everyone who does not listen to Him will be completely cut off from among his people.’
24Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have proclaimed these days.
Hebrews 9: 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,
Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

 

[keras]

The last days are specifically tied to the time of the Apostles

Get real! They were nearly 2000 years ago.
No wonder people who believe such funny ideas, also think we humans will go to live in heaven. Even Hollywood and science fiction don't get so completely wakadoodle.

Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

We are plainly told when this will happen: Revelation 19:16

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Get real! They were nearly 2000 years ago.
No wonder people who believe such funny ideas, also think we humans will go to live in heaven. Even Hollywood and science fiction don't get so completely wakadoodle.

We are plainly told when this will happen: Revelation 19:10

 

[keras]

Jesua will Return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Revelation 19:16 [sorry, typo mistake; Rev 19:10]

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Then explain how the Spirit was not poured out in the last days Acts 2:16-21. Explain how those weren't the last days according to Hebrews 1:2.
What do you believe the last days are of? I believe they were the end of the old covenant world/age and the beginning of the never ending new covenant world/age.
As to Revelation 10:16, it doesn't say anything about when He is coming only the manner He is coming. But we learn the following in 1 Timothy 6 14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
But in Revelation 1 and 22 we are told when He comes:
Revelation 2:16 Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will wage war against them with the sword of My mouth.
Revelation 3: I am coming quickly; hold firmly to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Revelation 22:7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to reward each one as his work deserves.
Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.
Revelation 22:10And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

 

[Der Alte]

@Ed Parenteau
Let us read the next verse.

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: ​

Last book in the Bible, last chapter. Ten more vss. the end. No more death, no more salvation only, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:"

 

[Ed Parenteau]

@Ed Parenteau
Let us read the next verse.

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: ​

Last book in the Bible, last chapter. Ten more vss. the end. No more death, no more salvation only, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:"

If the ministry of death is gone, then there is no more death from a covenantal perspective. I am personally not looking for a material fulfillment to Johns' spiritual visions. It's call the everlasting gospel for a reason.

2 Corinthians 3:
6And He has qualified us as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry of righteousness! 10Indeed, what was once glorious has no glory now in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!

Hebrews 8:13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

John 5:24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Der Alte]

If the ministry of death is gone, then there is no more death from a covenantal perspective. I am personally not looking for a material fulfillment to Johns' spiritual visions. It's call the everlasting gospel for a reason.
2 Corinthians 3:
6And He has qualified us as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry of righteousness! 10Indeed, what was once glorious has no glory now in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!
Hebrews 8:13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
John 5:24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

Very interesting. Can you explain to me how the residents of e.g. Corinth would have put all this together as you did? They didn't have electronic devices where they could instantly pull all these scriptures, you did, if they even had any of them. N.T. manuscripts were very expensive, the average person could not afford them. A home church may have some but probably not all of the N.T.. What the average person knew about scripture was what they heard on Sunday.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Very interesting. Can you explain to me how the residents of e.g. Corinth would have put all this together as you did? They didn't have electronic devices where they could instantly pull all these scriptures, you did, if they even had any of them. N.T. manuscripts were very expensive, the average person could not afford them. A home church may have some but probably not all of the N.T.. What the average person knew about scripture was what they heard on Sunday.

They had the Apostles: Here are a few of Paul's visits. Notice how much time he's spending with them. Just imagine the questions you might have and have Paul there to answer them. What we have is great and better than most of church history but not as good as having the Apostles in person in my view.
Acts 18:11 So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching the word of God among the Corinthians.
Acts 19:8 Then Paul went into the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. 9But when some of them stubbornly refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way, Paul took his disciples and left the synagogue to conduct daily discussions in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. 10This continued for two years, so that everyone who lived in the province of Asia, Jews and Greeks alike, heard the word of the Lord.
Galatians 1:17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

 

[Der Alte]

They had the Apostles: Here are a few of Paul's visits. Notice how much time he's spending with them. Just imagine the questions you might have and have Paul there to answer them. What we have is great and better than most of church history but not as good as having the Apostles in person in my view.
Acts 18:11 So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching the word of God among the Corinthians.
Acts 19:8 Then Paul went into the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. 9But when some of them stubbornly refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way, Paul took his disciples and left the synagogue to conduct daily discussions in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. 10This continued for two years, so that everyone who lived in the province of Asia, Jews and Greeks alike, heard the word of the Lord.
Galatians 1:17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.
Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Partly true. They did have the apostles. But the apostles could only be in one place at a time. Why did you bold the words "which had been proclaimed to every creature under heaven"? This is clearly hyperbole, as is the statement, "everyone who lived in the province of Asia, Jews and Greeks alike, heard the word of the Lord." I concede that many did hear but certainly not everyone who lived in Asia.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Partly true. They did have the apostles. But the apostles could only be in one place at a time. Why did you bold the words "which had been proclaimed to every creature under heaven"? This is clearly hyperbole, as is the statement, "everyone who lived in the province of Asia, Jews and Greeks alike, heard the word of the Lord." I concede that many did hear but certainly not everyone who lived in Asia.

As to the Apostles not being able to be everywhere, I'm not understanding why that would matter. As to underlining, I was just showing that it had gone out to the limit that Jesus had set before the end. Therefore, what ever the church needed to know was accomplished. My apologies, it wasn't clear at all what I intended to mean.

 

[DavidPT]

Now, here's a tough question for annihilationists. Was Jesus talking about the 24-hour day he died on when he told the good thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise?" If he was talking about it, did the good thief die and come back to life to visit paradise? Did the Savior do that? St. Thomas would call a disembodied human soul by its person's name. So maybe Our Lord meant that his soul would visit paradise with the thief's soul.

I can't speak for others, personally I don't see that as a tough question when we factor in other things, such as what the thief said. Though, I'm not certain what your point is in regards to annihilation and how it relates to this?

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Take note what the thief said in verse 42---remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom

The question then is, since verse 43 in regards to paradise obviously has to be involving Him coming into His kingdom, did Jesus come into His kingdom the very day He died? No. Unless one thinks the following is pertaining to coming into His kingdom.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


I propose that when He comes into His kingdom it is meaning once He bodily returns in the future, which then involves raising the dead, which then involves the new Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven. And speaking of that, by putting 2 and 2 together per the following, we can then assume the paradise Jesus was referring to in Luke 23:42 is likely meaning the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

This verse tells us that the tree of life, it is in the midst of the paradise of God. Where does the book of Revelation then tell us where the tree of life is? Does it not tell us it is in the new Jerusalem?

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[keras]

when He comes into His kingdom it is meaning once He bodily returns in the future, which then involves raising the dead, which then involves the new Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven

Revelation 20 makes it plain; there will be a thousand year gap from the Return to the resurrection of all the dead and the coming down of the New Jerusalem.

 

[BillMcEnaney]

I can't speak for others, personally I don't see that as a tough question when we factor in other things, such as what the thief said. Though, I'm not certain what your point is in regards to annihilation and how it relates to this?

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Take note what the thief said in verse 42---remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom

The question then is, since verse 43 in regards to paradise obviously has to be involving Him coming into His kingdom, did Jesus come into His kingdom the very day He died? No. Unless one thinks the following is pertaining to coming into His kingdom.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


I propose that when He comes into His kingdom it is meaning once He bodily returns in the future, which then involves raising the dead, which then involves the new Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven. And speaking of that, by putting 2 and 2 together per the following, we can then assume the paradise Jesus was referring to in Luke 23:42 is likely meaning the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

This verse tells us that the tree of life, it is in the midst of the paradise of God. Where does the book of Revelation then tell us where the tree of life is? Does it not tell us it is in the new Jerusalem?

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

My point is that for the good thief to have visited paradise with Our Lord on the 24-hour day they died, the good thief or part of him would have needed to survive his physical death. The Bible doesn't tell me that the good thief died and resurrected on that day. Since Our Lord's body lay in the tomb for three days, it didn't resurrect on the first one either.

The good thief may have meant he wanted Our Lord to remember him when he, Christ, returned to heaven. And that's compatible with their visit to paradise, even if heaven and paradise are different places. The Bible teaches that after Christ died, he preached to imprisoned souls. That suggests, at least to Catholics, that his soul visited the immortal souls of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others who died before he came. Before Christ died on the cross, they needed to wait outside heaven because he opened when he died.

The new Jerusalem might include holy souls who return with Jesus during his second coming If they come with him, I'm sure we'll see them somehow, though disembodied souls don't occupy space.

I'm not sure why anyone would believe the New Jerusalem would be a place on earth if Christ and the blessed will ascend to heaven with him. The phrase might denote the saved people. Although I'm not sure what "the end of the world" stands for, I doubt that the new Jerusalem will stay on earth if someone or something will destroy our planet.

Who says the Bible is easy to understand?

Evidence for the doctrine about purgatory and the immortality of the soul