DavidPT

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My point is that for the good thief to have visited paradise with Our Lord on the 24-hour day they died, the good thief or part of him would have needed to survive his physical death. The Bible doesn't tell me that the good thief died and resurrected on that day. Since Our Lord's body lay in the tomb for three days, it didn't resurrect on the first one either.

The good thief may have meant he wanted Our Lord to remember him when he, Christ, returned to heaven. And that's compatible with their visit to paradise, even if heaven and paradise are different places. The new Jerusalem might include holy souls who return with Jesus during his second coming If they come with him, I'm sure we'll see them somehow, though disembodied souls don't occupy space.

Evidence for the doctrine about purgatory and the immortality of the soul

From what I've read, it seems the soul sleep doctrine is a 19th-century novelty.

As to soul sleep, that has never been my position, yet sometimes I have to wonder why not? For example, I don't see the following making logical sense unless soul sleep is maybe true. I'm just trying to be objective here is all.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The ones He was talking to at the time, they are obviously dead by now, and that He was obviously including them. Meaning verse 3 makes zero sense if they are already in heaven once they died, which would mean they are already where He is, yet the text states that He first has to come again, and then He receives them unto Himself, then where He is, there they may be also.
 
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BillMcEnaney

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As to soul sleep, that has never been my position, yet sometimes I have to wonder why not? For example, I don't see the following making logical sense unless soul sleep is maybe true. I'm just trying to be objective here is all.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The ones He was talking to at the time, they are obviously dead by now, and that He was obviously including them. Meaning verse 3 makes zero sense if they are already in heaven once they died, which would mean they are already where He is, yet the text states that He first has to come again, and then He receives them unto Himself, then where He is, there they may be also.
David, thank you for your objectivity. Though I long to be objective, too, may emotions cloud my judgment too often. So you're better than me, I'm sure.

Please let me share some metaphysics with you because I think my belief may be compatible with yours.

Like many other devout Christians, you probably know Dr. William Lane Craig is a brilliant apologist. He is also a substance dualist. He believes that he's a spirit living in a body in something like the way you live in a tent when you camp. So I'll look up the Bible passages he and Dr. J.P. Moreland would quote to support dualism.

Dr. Moreland and I agree with St. Thomas Aquinas's dualism. For us, each human person is composed of a body and an immaterial immortal soul that makes that body human. We would argue that our souls are parts of us that survive when we die. In our opinion, the essence of death is that the soul leaves its body. So I think that since my soul will leave my body when I die, Our Lord will need to reunite it with my body when he resurrects that body. He'll rebuild me, if you will.

Catholics believe that heaven and hell are conditions and places. If my soul goes to heaven, it'll see God face-to-face. But since my disembodied immaterial soul can't take up space, it won't be in any physical place. Our Lord is in a physical one now because he still has his body. Damned souls and demons are suffering in hell. But they're not in physical places either. So when we say a soul, an angel, or a demon is somewhere, we mean that he she, or it is making things happen there. Damned souls will get their bodies back when Christ comes again. But demons and other angels will always be bodyless spirits.

I don't know whether we'll find literal mansions in heaven, though hope we do. But Catholics believe that Christ's point about many mansions is a metaphor for degrees of holiness. In The Catechism of the Council of Trent, a chapter describes the properties the Catholic Church thinks our resurrected, glorified bodies will. For example, they'll glow because our souls will be happy. We'll never feel pain. If we want to go somewhere, we'll get the at the speed of thought. We'll be able to walk through solid objects they way Our Lord walked through the upper room's closed door after he rose from the dead. . .

Heaven is much, much different from earth whether we're talking about a condition, a place, or both. In fact, if it makes sense to say that space and time began together, before they did that, the Holy Trinity was literally nowhere, i.e., in no physical place.

I reflect on these weird thoughts because I earned a BA degree in philosophy and studied that subject in graduate school. I also proofread scholarly Catholic books for a friend of mine. So you probably know that I prefer theory to practice. Don't worry, though, I'm not called to be a pastor. ;)
 
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Mark Quayle

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Agreed.
There is also the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Or parable, for those who prefer that.
Why would Jesus tell a story that is so misleading about the afterlife with no disclaimer?
By now you may have picked up on the fact that I don't see parables the way that apparently most Christians do. To me, the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is only that, and assumes a perhaps common-at-the-time view of the afterlife. It is told for certain ends, and not for doctrinal instruction concerning the specifics of the afterlife. "The moral of the story" is the reason for the story. In this example, that of the stubborn blindness of those who will not believe, and, ironically, a specific reference or prophecy to Christ's return from the grave.
 
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Mark Quayle

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As to soul sleep, that has never been my position, yet sometimes I have to wonder why not? For example, I don't see the following making logical sense unless soul sleep is maybe true. I'm just trying to be objective here is all.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The ones He was talking to at the time, they are obviously dead by now, and that He was obviously including them. Meaning verse 3 makes zero sense if they are already in heaven once they died, which would mean they are already where He is, yet the text states that He first has to come again, and then He receives them unto Himself, then where He is, there they may be also.
But your whole mentality there assumes a pervasiveness to time, outside our temporal frame. Concerning those who are dead, we may describe their current situation as WE consider it from here. But your necessarily temporal terminology is pushing your mind around. They, from (I think) a more fitting description, are not dead. They only died, were resurrected, and were taken into Heaven. They don't HAVE a "current situation". The fact that we don't as yet see that doesn't mean it wasn't a completed fact when God spoke his Dwelling Place into being.

I believe that when Jesus said he goes to prepare a place for us, it is us, the Dwelling Place of God, that he is preparing. He spoke temporally, because that is how we see and understand fact, that ongoing right now, we are becoming what he had in mind for us when he made us. I too speak temporally here concerning the eternal, because I don't know how to speak non-temporally.

To me it is very interesting that God uses the Greek in his New Testament. The language's verbs are not so much a reference to time, but to the kind of action: Point-in-time, ongoing or continuous, completed, contingent or hypothetical, active and passive, etc.

This view changes our concepts about a lot of things. One of them is: All that has happened/ is happening/ will happen to a person, and all he does during this life, is not just, as we see it, part of his transformation from fetus, or even from a concept in God's mind, to his final end, but rather all of it is who he is! And by the grace of God, our sin that would otherwise be part of us, is utterly removed from us. THIS is a "New Creation".
 
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Ed Parenteau

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Revelation 20 makes it plain; there will be a thousand year gap from the Return to the resurrection of all the dead and the coming down of the New Jerusalem.
No, it's plain that John is having a vision in the Spirit, it's a Spiritual vision, not a literal vision. That's what he means by "then I saw" while in the Spirit. Here's a list of visions in the Spirit John has in the Revelation. How can you take any of them literally? There would be no foundation in scripture to do that. Be my guest, give it a try.
Revelation 1:12 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ ἐπιστρέψας εἶδον ἑπτὰ λυχνίας
INT: and having turned I saw seven lampstands

Revelation 1:17 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ ὅτε εἶδον αὐτόν ἔπεσα
INT: And when I saw him I fell

Revelation 4:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
INT: After these things I looked and behold

Revelation 5:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἐπὶ τὴν
INT: And I saw on the

Revelation 5:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον ἰσχυρὸν
INT: And I saw an angel strong

Revelation 5:6 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἐν μέσῳ
INT: And I saw in [the] midst

Revelation 5:11 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἤκουσα
INT: And I saw and I heard

Revelation 6:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξεν
INT: And I saw when opened

Revelation 6:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
NAS: I looked, and behold, a white
INT: And I saw and behold

Revelation 6:5 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Ἔρχου καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
NAS: Come . I looked, and behold,
INT: Come and I looked And behold

Revelation 6:8 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
NAS: I looked, and behold, an ashen
INT: And I looked and behold

Revelation 6:9 V-AIA-1S
GRK: πέμπτην σφραγῖδα εἶδον ὑποκάτω τοῦ
INT: fifth seal I saw under the

Revelation 6:12 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξεν
INT: And I saw when he opened

Revelation 7:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Μετὰ τοῦτο εἶδον τέσσαρας ἀγγέλους
NAS: After this I saw four angels
INT: after these things I saw four angels

Revelation 7:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον ἄλλον ἄγγελον
INT: And I saw another angel

Revelation 7:9 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
INT: After these things I looked and behold

Revelation 8:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον τοὺς ἑπτὰ
INT: And I saw the seven

Revelation 8:13 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἤκουσα
INT: And I saw and heard

Revelation 9:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: ἐσάλπισεν καὶ εἶδον ἀστέρα ἐκ
INT: sounded [his] trumpet and I saw a star out of

Revelation 9:17 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ οὕτως εἶδον τοὺς ἵππους
INT: And thus I saw the horses

Revelation 10:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἄλλον ἄγγελον
INT: And I saw another angel

Revelation 10:5 V-AIA-1S
GRK: ἄγγελος ὃν εἶδον ἑστῶτα ἐπὶ
INT: angel whom I saw standing on

Revelation 13:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἐκ τῆς
NAS: Then I saw a beast
INT: and I saw out of the

Revelation 13:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: θηρίον ὃ εἶδον ἦν ὅμοιον
INT: beast which I saw was like

Revelation 13:11 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἄλλο θηρίον
INT: And I saw another beast

Revelation 14:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
INT: And I saw and behold

Revelation 14:6 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἄλλον ἄγγελον
INT: And I saw another angel

Revelation 14:14 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
INT: And I looked and behold

Revelation 15:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἄλλο σημεῖον
INT: And I saw another sign

Revelation 15:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ὡς θάλασσαν
INT: And I saw as a sea

Revelation 15:5 V-AIA-1S
GRK: μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον καὶ ἠνοίγη
INT: after these things I looked and was opened

Revelation 16:13 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἐκ τοῦ
INT: And I saw out of the

Revelation 17:3 V-AIA-1S
GRK: πνεύματι καὶ εἶδον γυναῖκα καθημένην
INT: [the] Spirit and I saw a woman sitting

Revelation 17:6 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον τὴν γυναῖκα
INT: And I saw the woman

Revelation 18:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον ἄλλον ἄγγελον
NAS: After these things I saw another angel
INT: after these things I saw another angel

Revelation 19:11 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον τὸν οὐρανὸν
INT: And I saw heaven

Revelation 19:17 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἕνα ἄγγελον
INT: And I saw one angel

Revelation 19:19 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον τὸ θηρίον
INT: And I saw the beast

Revelation 20:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον καταβαίνοντα
INT: And I saw an angel descending

Revelation 20:4 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους καὶ
INT: And I saw thrones and

Revelation 20:11 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον θρόνον μέγαν
INT: And I saw a throne great

Revelation 20:12 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον τοὺς νεκρούς
INT: And I saw the dead

Revelation 21:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον οὐρανὸν καινὸν
INT: And I saw a heaven new

Revelation 21:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Ἰερουσαλὴμ καινὴν εἶδον καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ
NAS: And I saw the holy city,
INT: Jerusalem new I saw coming down out of

Revelation 21:22 V-AIA-1S
GRK: ναὸν οὐκ εἶδον ἐν αὐτῇ
INT: temple not I saw in it
 
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keras

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No, it's plain that John is having a vision in the Spirit, it's a Spiritual vision, not a literal vision. That's what he means by "then I saw" while in the Spirit. Here's a list of visions in the Spirit John has in the Revelation. How can you take any of them literally? There would be no foundation in scripture to do that.
The foundation to take John's visions literally, is in Revelation 1:1
They describe things and events which can and will take place literally.
Unless all Creation is suddenly evaporated, then what God has told us thru all His Prophets, will be the scenario for the future. Believe it or not!
 
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DavidPT

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But your whole mentality there assumes a pervasiveness to time, outside our temporal frame. Concerning those who are dead, we may describe their current situation as WE consider it from here. But your necessarily temporal terminology is pushing your mind around. They, from (I think) a more fitting description, are not dead. They only died, were resurrected, and were taken into Heaven. They don't HAVE a "current situation". The fact that we don't as yet see that doesn't mean it wasn't a completed fact when God spoke his Dwelling Place into being.

I believe that when Jesus said he goes to prepare a place for us, it is us, the Dwelling Place of God, that he is preparing. He spoke temporally, because that is how we see and understand fact, that ongoing right now, we are becoming what he had in mind for us when he made us. I too speak temporally here concerning the eternal, because I don't know how to speak non-temporally.

To me it is very interesting that God uses the Greek in his New Testament. The language's verbs are not so much a reference to time, but to the kind of action: Point-in-time, ongoing or continuous, completed, contingent or hypothetical, active and passive, etc.

This view changes our concepts about a lot of things. One of them is: All that has happened/ is happening/ will happen to a person, and all he does during this life, is not just, as we see it, part of his transformation from fetus, or even from a concept in God's mind, to his final end, but rather all of it is who he is! And by the grace of God, our sin that would otherwise be part of us, is utterly removed from us. THIS is a "New Creation".

But you seem to be somewhat missing the point I was trying to make. Let's look at the text again.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The first thing to note, this is from Jesus' perspective. In verse 3 He indicates He will come again, and when He does, He will at that time receive those whom He is addressing here, unto Himself, that where He is, there they may be also.

When a person dies, assuming they go immediately into heaven, that would be depicting them coming to Jesus, not Jesus coming again. How can---I will come again---not be meaning His bodily return in the end of this age, the fact how it turned out eventually, that He bodily left the planet altogether, but is expected to bodily return some day? If these are already in heaven, thus already where He is, how then do we logically apply this---I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also---to the ones He was speaking to at the time, when He returns in the end of this age?

Something I have noted is the following---I go to prepare a place for you. The Greek word for 'prepare' is
hetoimazo
het-oy-mad'-zo
from etoimoV - hetoimos 2092; to prepare:--prepare, provide, make ready. Compare kataskeuazw - kataskeuazo 2680.

What I find interesting is one place where we find that same Greek word used again.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared(hetoimazo) as a bride adorned for her husband.

Why can't this be what He goes to prepare for them, and all saints for that matter? Isn't this where He is going to be dwelling for forever once Revelation 21:2 is fulfilled? Thus where He is, we and those whom He was addressing at the time, shall be where He is?
 
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Ed Parenteau

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The foundation to take John's visions literally, is in Revelation 1:1
They describe things and events which can and will take place literally.
Unless all Creation is suddenly evaporated, then what God has told us thru all His Prophets, will be the scenario for the future. Believe it or not!
The actual foundation is the first vision being explained by Jesus. They are to be taken symbolically and not literally otherwise the following are as you now claim to be taken as literal.
So you now believe that Jesus is literally a lamb with 7 eyes and seven horns, that He appears as jasper and carnelian, He has a literal sword coming out of his mouth, that the beasts are literal beasts, that the New Jerusalem is a literal jeweled box the size of the Roman Empire, that God and the lamb are literally our physical temple, etc.
I don't see how you can have it both ways, it just becomes arbitrary.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No, it's plain that John is having a vision in the Spirit, it's a Spiritual vision, not a literal vision. That's what he means by "then I saw" while in the Spirit. Here's a list of visions in the Spirit John has in the Revelation. How can you take any of them literally? There would be no foundation in scripture to do that. Be my guest, give it a try.
Revelation 1:12 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ ἐπιστρέψας εἶδον ἑπτὰ λυχνίας
INT: and having turned I saw seven lampstands

Revelation 1:17 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ ὅτε εἶδον αὐτόν ἔπεσα
INT: And when I saw him I fell

Revelation 4:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
INT: After these things I looked and behold

Revelation 5:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἐπὶ τὴν
INT: And I saw on the

Revelation 5:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον ἰσχυρὸν
INT: And I saw an angel strong

Revelation 5:6 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἐν μέσῳ
INT: And I saw in [the] midst

Revelation 5:11 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἤκουσα
INT: And I saw and I heard

Revelation 6:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξεν
INT: And I saw when opened

Revelation 6:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
NAS: I looked, and behold, a white
INT: And I saw and behold

Revelation 6:5 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Ἔρχου καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
NAS: Come . I looked, and behold,
INT: Come and I looked And behold

Revelation 6:8 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
NAS: I looked, and behold, an ashen
INT: And I looked and behold

Revelation 6:9 V-AIA-1S
GRK: πέμπτην σφραγῖδα εἶδον ὑποκάτω τοῦ
INT: fifth seal I saw under the

Revelation 6:12 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξεν
INT: And I saw when he opened

Revelation 7:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Μετὰ τοῦτο εἶδον τέσσαρας ἀγγέλους
NAS: After this I saw four angels
INT: after these things I saw four angels

Revelation 7:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον ἄλλον ἄγγελον
INT: And I saw another angel

Revelation 7:9 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
INT: After these things I looked and behold

Revelation 8:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον τοὺς ἑπτὰ
INT: And I saw the seven

Revelation 8:13 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἤκουσα
INT: And I saw and heard

Revelation 9:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: ἐσάλπισεν καὶ εἶδον ἀστέρα ἐκ
INT: sounded [his] trumpet and I saw a star out of

Revelation 9:17 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ οὕτως εἶδον τοὺς ἵππους
INT: And thus I saw the horses

Revelation 10:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἄλλον ἄγγελον
INT: And I saw another angel

Revelation 10:5 V-AIA-1S
GRK: ἄγγελος ὃν εἶδον ἑστῶτα ἐπὶ
INT: angel whom I saw standing on

Revelation 13:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἐκ τῆς
NAS: Then I saw a beast
INT: and I saw out of the

Revelation 13:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: θηρίον ὃ εἶδον ἦν ὅμοιον
INT: beast which I saw was like

Revelation 13:11 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἄλλο θηρίον
INT: And I saw another beast

Revelation 14:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
INT: And I saw and behold

Revelation 14:6 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἄλλον ἄγγελον
INT: And I saw another angel

Revelation 14:14 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ
INT: And I looked and behold

Revelation 15:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἄλλο σημεῖον
INT: And I saw another sign

Revelation 15:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ὡς θάλασσαν
INT: And I saw as a sea

Revelation 15:5 V-AIA-1S
GRK: μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον καὶ ἠνοίγη
INT: after these things I looked and was opened

Revelation 16:13 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἐκ τοῦ
INT: And I saw out of the

Revelation 17:3 V-AIA-1S
GRK: πνεύματι καὶ εἶδον γυναῖκα καθημένην
INT: [the] Spirit and I saw a woman sitting

Revelation 17:6 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον τὴν γυναῖκα
INT: And I saw the woman

Revelation 18:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον ἄλλον ἄγγελον
NAS: After these things I saw another angel
INT: after these things I saw another angel

Revelation 19:11 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον τὸν οὐρανὸν
INT: And I saw heaven

Revelation 19:17 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἕνα ἄγγελον
INT: And I saw one angel

Revelation 19:19 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον τὸ θηρίον
INT: And I saw the beast

Revelation 20:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον καταβαίνοντα
INT: And I saw an angel descending

Revelation 20:4 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους καὶ
INT: And I saw thrones and

Revelation 20:11 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον θρόνον μέγαν
INT: And I saw a throne great

Revelation 20:12 V-AIA-1S
GRK: καὶ εἶδον τοὺς νεκρούς
INT: And I saw the dead

Revelation 21:1 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Καὶ εἶδον οὐρανὸν καινὸν
INT: And I saw a heaven new

Revelation 21:2 V-AIA-1S
GRK: Ἰερουσαλὴμ καινὴν εἶδον καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ
NAS: And I saw the holy city,
INT: Jerusalem new I saw coming down out of

Revelation 21:22 V-AIA-1S
GRK: ναὸν οὐκ εἶδον ἐν αὐτῇ
INT: temple not I saw in it
The problem is, as I have studied, that we think 'literal' as being of the same nature as what we can/could perceive during this temporal life. For example, I believe we will have physical bodies in heaven, but not physical as we understand it now, but rather, super-physical, to which this 'physical' is only a picture of sorts, at best. Heaven is solid reality compared to this vapor we esteem as real.

Reminds me of a discussion some time back about Heaven's language. I think, at least for God, and possibly us, though it is pretty much inconceivable right now, words are there no longer representations of fact, but the fact itself.

I like to think John actually saw the real thing, which God spoke into fact at the beginning, and to him is all one and the same fact, and John was taken outside of this temporal 'reality' to see it.
 
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keras

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So you now believe that Jesus is literally a lamb with 7 eyes and seven horns, that He appears as jasper and carnelian, He has a literal sword coming out of his mouth, that the beasts are literal beasts, that the New Jerusalem is a literal jeweled box the size of the Roman Empire, that God and the lamb are literally our physical temple, etc.
Going down that rabbit trail, simply shows the paucity and error of your beliefs.
There is no real difficulty for sensible people to discern what is allegorical and metaphorical in the Prophesies.

Our future is not symbolic, but real and Jesus will really Return to the earth, when all is fulfilled; at the end of this age.
 
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Going down that rabbit trail, simply shows the paucity and error of your beliefs.
There is no real difficulty for sensible people to discern what is allegorical and metaphorical in the Prophesies.

Our future is not symbolic, but real and Jesus will really Return to the earth, when all is fulfilled; at the end of this age.
So it's obvious you can't do it, or you would have at least pointed to one of those verses that would be taken literally.
It's because you don't believe any of the following direct statements of Jesus. How many times does He need to tell you something before you would believe Him?

Revelation 1:1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,...
3.Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.
Revelation 2:16 Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will wage war against them with the sword of My mouth.
Revelation 3: I am coming quickly; hold firmly to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Revelation 22:7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to reward each one as his work deserves.
Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Revelation 22:10And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.


 
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Yes; when the Lord arises and quickly sends His terrible Day of fiery wrath upon the earth, you and most other people will stand amazed and won't know which way to turn. Luke 21:25-26

As for soul sleep, it is plain and logical that is what happens, after death. Eccl 9:5
We awaken to face Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15, Hebrews 9:27
 
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The problem is, as I have studied, that we think 'literal' as being of the same nature as what we can/could perceive during this temporal life. For example, I believe we will have physical bodies in heaven, but not physical as we understand it now, but rather, super-physical, to which this 'physical' is only a picture of sorts, at best. Heaven is solid reality compared to this vapor we esteem as real.

Reminds me of a discussion some time back about Heaven's language. I think, at least for God, and possibly us, though it is pretty much inconceivable right now, words are there no longer representations of fact, but the fact itself.

I like to think John actually saw the real thing, which God spoke into fact at the beginning, and to him is all one and the same fact, and John was taken outside of this temporal 'reality' to see it.
I agree with you if I understand you correctly, but when I speak to some, their literal is an earthly physical reality. After all, God is a literal being but "not of this creation".
 
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Yes; when the Lord arises and quickly sends His terrible Day of fiery wrath upon the earth, you and most other people will stand amazed and won't know which way to turn. Luke 21:25-26

As for soul sleep, it is plain and logical that is what happens, after death. Eccl 9:5
We awaken to face Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
Speaking to His disciples He says: Luke 21: 28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Refresh your grammar.

Or perhaps you're looking forward to Luke 21:12But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. On account of My name they will deliver you to the synagogues and prisons, and they will bring you before kings and governors.
Then He tells His disciples this: Luke 21:32Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Why can't you find me a literal vision in that list I gave you?
 
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Why can't you find me a literal vision in that list I gave you?
I gave you one - Luke 21:15-26 Read it and be afraid, because that is exactly what will soon happen.
The sad thing is that Christians like you have no idea of this forthcoming worldwide disaster.
 
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I gave you one - Luke 21:15-26 Read it and be afraid, because that is exactly what will soon happen.
The sad thing is that Christians like you have no idea of this forthcoming worldwide disaster.
Nope, you're just another false prophet whose predictions will fall by the way. If I were you, I'd worry more about standing before the Lord having falsely prophesied than worry about your misguided interpretation of Luke.
 
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We shall soon see who's right!
I look forward to the Day I will stand before God, as I have faithfully promoted what His Prophets said.
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keras
We shall soon see who's right!
I look forward to the Day I will stand before God, as I have faithfully promoted what His Prophets said.
I'm absolutely sure that we will both be dead and you will be wrong. There's nothing in scripture that points past a first century fulfillment.
 
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