A Controversial Review of the Immaculate

[Gabriel Anton]

handmaid
ˈhan(d)meɪd/
noun
archaic

1. a female servant.
   • a subservient partner or element.
     

 

[FaeryChild]

Luke 1:28. Depending on which one you read, you may get a different idea of just what is being said:

Wycliffe Bible, "Hail, full of grace"
Douay-Rheims "Hail, full of grace"
Geneva Bible "Hail thou that art freely beloved"
KJV "Hail thou that art highly favored"
ASV "Hail thou that art highly favored"
RSV "Hail, O favored one"
NIV "Greetings, you who are highly favored!"
NRSV "Greetings, favored one!"
NCV "Greetings, the Lord has blessed you"
TLB "Congratulations, favored lady"
MSG "Good morning! You're beautiful with God's beauty"

I suppose one could accuse the Douay-Rheims as having a "Catholic bias" - though Wycliffe rendered the exact same translation. More investigation may be helpful...
Jerome's Vulgate uses "gratia plena" which is full of grace. The French LSG says "Je te salue, toi à qui une grâce a été faite" which is also saying the she has already been made perfect in grace (past perfect tense). Of note, Luther's German translation says "Gegrüßet seist du, Holdselige!" which does signal a shift from "full of grace" to "highly favored one".

The Greek here says κεχαριτωμενη which comes from the root word for grace, charis, which means that only some are honest enough to tell you that Mary has been made full in grace. The Greek, kekaritomen is in the perfect passive sense which means it has already come to pass, it has been done to her - to state it as literally as possible: Mary has already been made perfect in grace! The Angel proclaims this to be true and it is recorded in Scripture as such. Saying that Mary is all-immaculate is another way of saying "full of grace" or "perfected in grace".

We're not saying she is the source of her own grace - that would, of course, be Jesus. However, Jesus' grace was already perfectly applied to her before she became pregnant with God. She was, literally, made immaculate.

 

[FaeryChild]

As far as Mary being the ever-virgin, Protestants have historically agreed that Scripture taught it:

Martin Luther wrote:

"When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom." (That Jesus was Born a Jew)

and

"Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. […] Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him. I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers." (Sermons on John)

Huldrych Zwingli wrote:

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, 1905, v. 1, p. 424)

John Wesley wrote:

"I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin." (Letter to a Roman Catholic)

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Luke 1:28. Depending on which one you read, you may get a different idea of just what is being said:

Wycliffe Bible, "Hail, full of grace"
Douay-Rheims "Hail, full of grace"
Geneva Bible "Hail thou that art freely beloved"
KJV "Hail thou that art highly favored"
ASV "Hail thou that art highly favored"
RSV "Hail, O favored one"
NIV "Greetings, you who are highly favored!"
NRSV "Greetings, favored one!"
NCV "Greetings, the Lord has blessed you"
TLB "Congratulations, favored lady"
MSG "Good morning! You're beautiful with God's beauty"

I suppose one could accuse the Douay-Rheims as having a "Catholic bias" - though Wycliffe rendered the exact same translation. More investigation may be helpful...
Jerome's Vulgate uses "gratia plena" which is full of grace. The French LSG says "Je te salue, toi à qui une grâce a été faite" which is also saying the she has already been made perfect in grace (past perfect tense). Of note, Luther's German translation says "Gegrüßet seist du, Holdselige!" which does signal a shift from "full of grace" to "highly favored one".

The Greek here says κεχαριτωμενη which comes from the root word for grace, charis, which means that only some are honest enough to tell you that Mary has been made full in grace. The Greek, kekaritomen is in the perfect passive sense which means it has already come to pass, it has been done to her - to state it as literally as possible: Mary has already been made perfect in grace! The Angel proclaims this to be true and it is recorded in Scripture as such. Saying that Mary is all-immaculate is another way of saying "full of grace" or "perfected in grace".

We're not saying she is the source of her own grace - that would, of course, be Jesus. However, Jesus' grace was already perfectly applied to her before she became pregnant with God. She was, literally, made immaculate.

Peace be with you.

In the Book, Song of Songs, in the Holy Scriptures, there is a Woman who is described as Unblemished and Perfect One. I only know Mary, the Mother of God who can fill that description.

God bless you.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

7 You are all-beautiful, my beloved,
and there is no blemish in you.

2 B I was sleeping, but my heart kept vigil;
I heard my lover knocking:
"Open to me, my sister, my beloved,
my dove, my perfect one!
For my head is wet with dew,
my locks with the moisture of the night."

8 There are sixty queens, eighty concubines,
and maidens without number -

9 One alone is my dove, my perfect one, her mother's chosen,
the dear one of her parent.
The daughters saw her and declared her fortunate,
the queens and concubines, and they sang her praises;

12 Before I knew it, my heart had made me the blessed one of my kinswomen

 

[Blever]

Believers (in India) face opposition (and persecution at times) from Hindus and Catholics equally.
Similarity between Hindus and Catholics are that they have female 'gods'. Catholics behave like Hindus - there is LOT of syncreticisim going on there. One ought to see it to believe it.

It is equally difficult for a Hindu to become a believer, and a Catholic to become a believer. Both have the same traditional bondage that need to be broken off before they can freely worship the one true living God.

such adamant (and wishful, shallow) misinterpretation .... rather misreading of scripture.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Believers (in India) face opposition (and persecution at times) from Hindus and Catholics equally.
Similarity between Hindus and Catholics are that they have female 'gods'. Catholics behave like Hindus - there is LOT of syncreticisim going on there. One ought to see it to believe it.

It is equally difficult for a Hindu to become a believer, and a Catholic to become a believer. Both have the same traditional bondage that need to be broken off before they can freely worship the one true living God.

such adamant (and wishful, shallow) misinterpretation .... rather misreading of scripture.

Peace be with you.

What kind of explanation is this? Refute what I have stated through the Holy Scriptures instead of airy opinions.

God bless you.

 

[FaeryChild]

Hindus are targeting all Christians, including Catholics, for persecution:

https://www.ncronline.org/news/glob...ans-struggle-against-violence-and-persecution

"female gods" has nothing to do with it

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

Protestants claim to know Holy Scriptures and their Sola Scriptura idea but cannot even refute using Holy Scriptures. I challenge you and your authority of Sola Scriptura to refute the arguments I have put forth. Show me your God Given Knowledge of Sola Scriptura.

God bless you.

 

[FaeryChild]

"Sola Scriptura" is a heresy contradicted by Scripture, which tells us to keep traditions, including oral ones (2 Thess. 2:15)

 

[Blever]

I was not explaining. Was only thinking loud, after reading lot of posts here on this thread.
You shall know them by their fruits, anyways....
Im outta this thread. Do not quote me no more. Thanks.

 

[Blever]

Faery child, you may want to read what I posted again. The article you have posted is about Hindus persecuting Christians. I am talking about Catholics persecuting new believers.
The issue is about Catholics being dead against a person in the family accepting Jesus Christ as their personal saviour and stopping to go to a Catholic church, and eventually going to an evangelical church.
Sharing experience is all I did. Not meaning to 'convert'
Im outta here.....again.

 

[FaeryChild]

There is a difference between disagreement and persecution. Your post claimed that Hindus and Catholics both persecuted "real believers". Since there is a real issue with violent persecution in India, it would make sense that one would take what you said as a reference to violence. Though, in that context, all Christians (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Evangelicals, etc.) are all persecuted for faith in Jesus. You may not see Catholics as Christians - but those who persecute Christians certainly do! As to why Catholics may disagree with family members leaving the Church for heretical sects -- when you love your family you sincerely do not wish to see them do something or make a decision that will be damaging for them spiritually.

 

[Blever]

You are right. It is what i mean when I say certain words.
I have issues with Indian Catholics - but that is quite irrelevant here to this thread.

 

[Meowzltov]

Well that is clearly a misapplication of this symbolic woman clothed with the sun. The twelve stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel, and Messiah Himself came forth from Israel of the tribe of Judah and the line of David (Micah 5:2). Furthermore the believing remnant attacked by Satan can only be the believing remnant of Israel, not Mary.

Yes, Mary represents Israel, out of which the Messiah came. Her children are the Church.

 

[Albion]

"Sola Scriptura" is a heresy contradicted by Scripture, which tells us to keep traditions, including oral ones (2 Thess. 2:15)

If it told us which traditions those might be, you could possibly have a point there.

But for sure, and because they didn't exist at that time, it wasn't a reference to Transubstantiation, Purgatory, Indulgences, Limbo, the Assumption of Mary, and all the other manufactured traditions of later times that are considered to be the equal of Scripture (by some denominations).

 

[Albion]

Protestants claim to know Holy Scriptures and their Sola Scriptura idea but cannot even refute using Holy Scriptures. I challenge you and your authority of Sola Scriptura to refute the arguments I have put forth.

Let's see. You said that Scripture doesn't say that Mary was sinless. But what Scripture DOES SAY is that she was not.

You're refuted...by the Word of God, just as you requested.

 

[paul becke]

You do know you are the one who asked about Her? I merely provided a possible solution to your inquiry. I believe in the Holy Trinity, the Triune God too.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is Special and Holy, isn't She? She's all about God in Her Messages. God this, God that, God left, God right, God up, God down, God here, God there, God in, God out, God front, God back. She's all about God. I just find Her Utterly Terrific.

My thinking is this. If this Woman named Mary is not suppose to be important, and God is Almighty and can do anything He wants, why would He even need to be carried by the Woman in Her Womb? That's just ridiculous.

Angel Gabriel could have just come to Mary and given Her a Baby and tell Her, "This is God, the Son, look after Him. God don't need no human vessel to pop Him out. He is Almighty and can pop in and out of worldly existence just through His Word. So here is Baby Jesus Christ, He has just been popped into my Arms by God the Father and I present Him to you to look after Him because that is God's Will. You are just His adoptive mother, understand woman? Don't go assuming you're more important than anybody else. You're just a nobody looking after the Redeemer of the World. You're not special. I have to go back to God now. Can't spend all day talking to a nobody like you. Make sure you don't pass any of your human, crappy, diseased, sinful nature and condition to Baby Jesus Christ. You will contaminate Him with your nothingness. That will be totally gross and you will ruin the Plan of Redemption for the whole human race. Got it, Mary? Bye." This is what a lot of people say about Her which makes no sense at all to me.

Mary is more than just a mortal woman. I would not be surprised if She had a pre-existent life. If you look at God's attitude in regards to marriage and procreation, it is solemn and serious in nature. So for God to have a Son through this Woman named Mary, this Woman just by that Deed and Act of God Almighty is Holy. This Woman named Mary while married to Joseph but before they lived together put God first before Her own husband, Joseph to have God's Son. She's like committing adultery with God to bear His Son. But it's not adultery only if this Woman named Mary was married to God first. Otherwise God would be breaking His Own Law. So Mary is one spirit and then one flesh with God. Even Jesus Christ, Her Son talks about the Sanctity of Marriage. Joseph was the adopted husband of Mary and adopted father of Jesus because God willed it so. So basically Joseph was looking after God's Wife and Son because God Himself was not able to do so at that particular point in time.

This Woman named Mary is the Spouse and Mother of Almighty God and Has a Spiritual Connection with the Holy Trinity that nobody else have. Angel Gabriel Hailed Her. Angel Gabriel doesn't hail nobodies. Angel Gabriel did not hail Zechariah, the priest, who was just a worshipper of God, that's all. Zechariah despite being righteous in the eyes of God and even prayed for a baby was not able to believe Angel Gabriel while Mary, who was married to Joseph despite hearing the most ridiculous announcement from anybody in Her entire life believed Angel Gabriel.

Anyway, you don't have to believe in Her. It's done by faith, by choice. Jesus Christ is more than enough for most. It's just that I came to faith in Jesus Christ through Her so I'm one of Her son. She has power over me and I like it that way because She teaches me about God.

God bless you.

The Commandment : 'Honour your father and mother', would not have been rescinded by Jesus and jettisoned, once he returned to heaven - as though he'd just used Our Lady as a kind of incubator, and Joseph, as a professional surrogate. On the contrary, after what they had been through together on earth as a family, their love for each other would surely be stronger than ever (if that had been possible, notably in the case of Jesus). I even wonder if Jesus' whole extended family like to have get-togethers, and reminisce about the better times.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

For one second let's go back to the issue raised!

Anton's words, "Mary was God's Wife" meaning "Goddess." So How was Christ Human? Was he human really? So assuming he wasn't really human but just had something like human then it would mean, he was God 100%. The man aspect was similar to the way he appeared to Abraham when he went to announce the birth of Isaac (the three men), Also the man who fought with Jacob-Israel. So it just means God was God all the time.

So someone explain how Jesus was human?

But why would the Lord take the trouble to create Jesus in Mary's Womb when he would have just become man, called a few shots, persecuted then raised from the dead. Are you saying Jesus' incarnation was FAKE!

Let's run with this for some time, that Jesus was indeed 100% God and 100% Man because he needed to "Literally" bear our sins and by becoming the sin all humankind was pure through his life and blood shed on the cross. If he overcame sin as a human being and also as God then Christians who believed in God and in Christ would eventually overcome it such that despite struggling with it the Lord would be there for us, within our hearts.

1 Corinthians 5 (20,21), "We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."


When I say Jesus 100% Human, literally, he was 100% human so that he would literally, become the "sin offering" and please for the nth time, Mary was human. The BIBLE SAYS,

Matthew 12:46-50, "While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Jesus throughout the Bible accorded everything to His father in Heaven and never at one point did he accord to his mother (not saying he was disobedient) but it defeats sense if the will of God after centuries later on grew into honoring Mary. Whoever that Indian was, LORD HAVE MERCY!!!

 

[Linet Kihonge]

"The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

If Mary was so HOLY how comes the Holy Spirit had to be with her during the conception of Jesus and Power of God had to overshadow her. Do you know how Holy God must be, it had to take the Holy Spirit and the Power of God to help Mary from being "destroyed" by God's presence in her womb.

This thing about Joseph being a medal. "But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

I think you can figure what consummating until she gave birth to Jesus ....!!! I know we can figure this MATH!