A Christmas Story

[InterestedAtheist]

Lol. Hey you are asking Christians concretely respond to your hypotheticals.

Why not stick to the material and concrete which you only believe in and dispense with the loaded hypotheticals?

Uh, redleghunter, I'm concerned you don't understand what a hypothetical is.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Wow. One of the largest examples of a preconceived false dichotomy.

Whoever wrote that post made Russell look like an imbecile.

Then compounded on assertions and misrepresentations of the Bible.

Really the best advice I can give is you actually read the Bible cover to cover a few times before peddling this sophistry passed guys like me who has studied both sides of the equation for years.

You will sucker a few maybe many here.

You may think so. Bertrand Russell is widely respected as a major philosophical thinker. But perhaps you'd like to show how he's an idiot by resolving Euthyphro's Dilemma itself? It's puzzled some of the best theological minds in history, but it seems you don't think it's a challenge?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Alright. Thanks for your time, civilwarbuff. I'm afraid this just isn't worth doing any more. You just don't understand enough to be able to talk about, and I don't have the patience to educate you.
Would you like the last word?

Oh, I ain't goin' no where.......

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Okay, so I presented my argument for a personal and spiritual encounter with the resurrected Messiah, the very one spoken about in the Bible, as evidence, but you don't accept personal testimony of mystical/spiritual events as evidence, even though your definition of existence includes this spiritual aspect.




I've shared what I think, and feel, and experience, and imagine, etc....No worries necessary.



It took place as orchestrated by a Loving Creator, within the heavenly realms, i.e., in the eternal:

2 Corinthians 4
"18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

Yes, I was in a temporal place at the time...in a church in Hawthorne California. The gospel was being preached:

Romans 10
"17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

I had heard it before as I was raised having to go to the dreaded church service every Sunday. But, this time I really heard it with spiritual ears and I was struck with the truth of it. It was as if there was something more than just the commonplace church service going on...and it was more than just some old guy speaking up on stage...there was power. I can only describe it as a divine appointment where the many aspects of my being coalesced into this meeting, because this is what it was...it was the Messiah Who was present and Who opened my ears even as He gave sight to the blind and raised from the dead. This is what being born again is...it is a resurrection from a mere temporal (passing) existence into the eternal (heavenly realms). This is how I know He is real, because I died with Him and I have arisen with Him as well. It is that same power that I experienced in that church service and many times after...and even now...the same power that He displayed when He walked the earth. It is the Holy Breath of Yahweh (the Creator)...the Holy Spirit.

Okay. Got it. You had an inner spiritual experience. But this isn't evidence of any kind for me to believe in God, and honestly, you ought to be wary of accepting it too uncritically yourself.
So. I asked you if you had any evidence of God, and all you have is personal spiritual experience. Let me quote you some Richard Dawkins:
"If you’ve had such an experience, you may well find yourself believing firmly that it was real. But don’t expect the rest of us to take your word for it, especially if we have the slightest familiarity with the brain and its powerful workings."

 

[Tone]

I swear. Believers and their inability to deal with hypotheticals.

Please don't swear...

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Oh, I ain't goin' no where.......

Ah, you're done already. You're just digging yourself in now. I wouldn't want to embarrass you.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Ah, you're done already. You're just digging yourself in now. I wouldn't want to embarrass you.

Oh, please....do try.....

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Oh, please....do try.....

Okay. Euthyphro's Dilemma. Where does it come from? Why is it a problem? How has it been applied to the Christian God? Do you consider it to be a dilemma? And if so, why, or why not?

 

[Tone]

this isn't evidence of any kind for me to believe in God, and honestly, you ought to be wary of accepting it too uncritically yourself.

Oh, I thought you were interested in what convinced me. Oh, I've tested this (every which way) through the crucible of life in this world for about 20 years now...I was about 19 when I first believed.

So. I asked you if you had any evidence of God, and all you have is personal spiritual experience.

You asked what makes me believe in His existence. But, I must also point out that my experience has been and is corroborated my many millions of other people...over thousands of years. Might be something to look into.

"If you’ve had such an experience, you may well find yourself believing firmly that it was real. But don’t expect the rest of us to take your word for it, especially if we have the slightest familiarity with the brain and its powerful workings."

No, I don't expect you to take my word for it...when you have your own encounter with the Messiah, then you will say "Aha, that Tone dude wasn't as kooky as I thought." (at least not in this matter anyways).

But, I also wouldn't put too much trust in their (the experts in lab coats?) familiarity with the brain, etc...Especially since the human being is so much more than any such scientific speculation.

 

[Tone]

Okay. Euthyphro's Dilemma. Where does it come from? Why is it a problem? How has it been applied to the Christian God? Do you consider it to be a dilemma? And if so, why, or why not?

I'm too Google for school...

 

[civilwarbuff]

I remember some of this from a sermon several years ago....had to refresh my memory somewhat so my answers are of necessity somewhat abbreviated.

Where does it come from?

If you know where Plato lives he could probably fill in the details....but.....

Why is it a problem?

It is only a 'problem' for those that don't believe in God.

How has it been applied to the Christian God?

Successfully or unsuccessfully? Never been applied successfully at least not as far believers are concerned. Only non-believers continue to pat themselves on the back for it generally speaking.

Do you consider it to be a dilemma?

No.

And if so, why, or why not?

Because it presupposes that there is no other option....

 

[civilwarbuff]

You asked what makes me believe in His existence. But, I must also point out that my experience has been and is corroborated my many millions of other people...over thousands of years. Might be something to look into.

Agreed......especially about the corroboration part.....

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I remember some of this from a sermon several years ago....had to refresh my memory somewhat so my answers are of necessity somewhat abbreviated.

If you know where Plato lives he could probably fill in the details....but.....

It is only a 'problem' for those that don't believe in God.

Successfully or unsuccessfully? Never been applied successfully at least not as far believers are concerned. Only non-believers continue to pat themselves on the back for it generally speaking.

No.

Because it presupposes that there is no other option....

Cool. What is the other option? I always thought that either God did things because they were good, or that they were good because He did them.

So what is the other option to the Dilemma?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

But, I must also point out that my experience has been and is corroborated my many millions of other people...over thousands of years. Might be something to look into.

Not really. Argumentum ad populum. Logical fallacy. Try not to do those on a debating forum.

No, I don't expect you to take my word for it...when you have your own encounter with the Messiah, then you will say "Aha, that Tone dude wasn't as kooky as I thought." (at least not in this matter anyways).

So you don't have any evidence for God's existence. Thought not.

But, I also wouldn't put too much trust in their (the experts in lab coats?) familiarity with the brain, etc...Especially since the human being is so much more than any such scientific speculation.

There's certainly a lot we don't know about the brain, but there's plenty we do know as well. And one of the things we know is that the brain is really, really good at fooling itself.
So if you're going to say "I know that God exists because I have experienced His presence," you're saying the same thing that many, many others have said, others who believed things that you do not believe, but who use exactly the same "reasoning" as you do.

An argument from personal experience, in short, is no argument at all.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Oh, I thought you were interested in what convinced me.

Not exactly. I am interested in quality evidence for the existence of God.
Imagine it from a different point of view. Supposing a Muslim told you that Christianity was mistaken, that Allah was the true God. "How do you know?" you might ask, and, "Why should I believe you?"
"Because it says so here," he answers, showing you a copy of the Koran.

Would you find his argument convincing? Of course not. But he is sincere in his belief.

The point is, of course, that sincerity of belief does not automatically equal sound beliefs. So no, I'm not particularly interested in your conversion story. I'm interested in your reasons for why Christianity is true and God is real. If you don't have any good reasons, then I will continue in my disblelief - and you should ask yourself why, having no good reasons to believe, do you do so.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Cool. What is the other option? I always thought that either God did things because they were good, or that they were good because He did them.

So what is the other option to the Dilemma?

After trying to put this into words this synopsis does a far better job....
The Euthyphro dilemma is actually a false dichotomy. That is, it proposes only two options when another is possible. The third option is that good is based on God’s nature. God appeals to nothing other than his own character for the standard of what is good and then reveals what is good to us. It is wrong to lie because God cannot lie (Titus 1:2), not because God had to discover lying was wrong or that he arbitrarily declared it to be wrong. This means that God does not declare something to be good (ignoring his own nature) or say that something is good by nature (recognizing a standard outside of himself). Both of these situations ignore the biblical option that good is a revelation of God's nature. In other words, God is the standard of what is good. He is good by nature, and he reveals his nature to us. Therefore, for the Christian, there is no dilemma since neither position in Euthyphro’s dilemma represents Christian theology.
What is the Euthyphro dilemma? | CARM.org

 

[civilwarbuff]

I'm interested in your reasons for why Christianity is true and God is real. If you don't have any good reasons, then I will continue in my disblelief - and you should ask yourself why, having no good reasons to believe, do you do so.

he told you, the fact that you don't accept it does not change what happened to him. The one thing i find irritating about atheists is they are dismissive of anything they can't grasp...similar to being small minded. Try not to be irritating.....

 

[redleghunter]

Uh, redleghunter, I'm concerned you don't understand what a hypothetical is.

I think I do. It’s what defense attorneys use when they can’t deal with the facts presented against their client.

 

[redleghunter]

You may think so. Bertrand Russell is widely respected as a major philosophical thinker. But perhaps you'd like to show how he's an idiot by resolving Euthyphro's Dilemma itself? It's puzzled some of the best theological minds in history, but it seems you don't think it's a challenge?

I didn’t say Russell is an idiot. I said the author of the blog you posted made him look like an imbecile. Big difference but happens on social media frequently.

Euthyphro’s dilemma is based on how the mortals in Greek antiquity viewed their gods. It’s a mortal dilemma that does not effect the God revealed in Holy Scriptures.

This is why I asked if you have read the Bible cover to cover. You honestly answered you did not. Greek campfire discussions on what they thought was moral and just and their origins may be a fun discussion. However, how God revealed Himself in Scriptures is not relevant to the Greek campfire discussion. Because they were dealing with their perception of their gods which they created themselves.

 

[redleghunter]

Okay. Got it. You had an inner spiritual experience. But this isn't evidence of any kind for me to believe in God, and honestly, you ought to be wary of accepting it too uncritically yourself.
So. I asked you if you had any evidence of God, and all you have is personal spiritual experience. Let me quote you some Richard Dawkins:
"If you’ve had such an experience, you may well find yourself believing firmly that it was real. But don’t expect the rest of us to take your word for it, especially if we have the slightest familiarity with the brain and its powerful workings."

Have you considered billions throughout history claiming the same as @Tone ?