A Christmas Story

[InterestedAtheist]

1 Corinthians 2:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

That is exactly what I would have written if I had made up a religion. "You'll only be able to see the truth if you believe first".

 

[Tone]

Fallacious? In what way?

Strawman.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

A friend of mine studies theology from a mainline Protestant point of view and in Germany they "find" all kinds of flaws/ contradictions in the Bible… but I stayed with my standpoint.

You are welcome to ignore the problems with the Bible if you like. But do you not think this approach is a bit like burying your head in the sand? Should the truth not be faced?

Ten centuries only you say? Many correct Bible versions have been around at that time, already, I thought?

I'm sure. The exact number of centuries isn't

I recall having had a tooth problem that instantly went away when I prayed.

I asked for prayers that have been answered. You said that you had had answered prayers. Please could I have a few of your best examples? I'm afraid toothache disappearing does not count at all.

But that was my last prayer in this sense, because I think health problems may have a meaning and God allowed this to happen to me to begin with. Now I try to change my life style the moment I discover a problem.

That's very sensible. If prayers don't work, it makes sense not to rely on them. Again: do you have any examples of answered prayers with which to rebut the idea in my signature, that prayers do nothing at all?

to give an example, some Christians think they have to apologize to the creator when they do harm to the creation, for instance… I mean the one you can't disprove .

Hahah. Very funny. Let's see you disprove Santa, then.

For me, it suffices to think that God knows. I think he is real.

Knowing doesn't cut it on a debate forum. And if you don't have evidence for what you "know", perhaps you should consider whether or not you really know it after all.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Strawman.

Demonstrate.

 

[civilwarbuff]

That is exactly what I would have written if I had made up a religion. "You'll only be able to see the truth if you believe first".

And it is accurate.....

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Hi Nihilist, nice to meet you, too.
I think this idea is defendable and I think we will have the opportunity to discuss some of the purported errors.
But why do you think the Bible requiring an index is a weakness?

An index being required is not a problem in your opinion? Firstly, if something is required, then something is lacking - so it is not complete, and hence not perfect. Secondly, any given index is presumably not divinely inspired, so no authoritative index can exist. This is exactly why thousands of denominations exist. It has caused disagreement and division. To be divided is a weakness.

I'm convinced… the important things speak for themselves and if you want to know more you ask the index.

I don't want to put words in your mouth so before I continue to assume that you agree that no index is divinely inspired, could you settle that issue for me? In your opinion, is there any index which is divinely inspired?

The important things - Jesus's teachings concerning salvation, for example - can be read the way they are written, in my opinion.
Thomas

17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor,* and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.



*Don't actually do this.

 

[Rodan6]

To find something you have to look for it? Certainly.
But "open sincerity" - what does this mean? A strange way of putting it. Of course, I am sincere in saying I want to know the truth, and would like to know if God is real. But there's a difference between saying "I will look at the evidence and follow what it means" and "I know what the truth is and will now go looking for evidence to support my ideas."

But you could find evidence of God in a book written by people, especially if it was inspired by God. And if a book was inspired by God - even if through the filter of human minds - you would expect it to be expectional. It should have beautiful, inspiring poetry. It should contain truths impossible for humans to have at that time. It should be an amazingly written book. It should be immediately obvious to all that God exists. And, of course, the Bible is nothing of the sort. It loks like what it almost certainly is - a collection of disparate writings by people making up stories about the world.

Prove? Proof, as they say, is for mathematics and alcohol. Evidence is what we're looking for. It's honest of you to admit that there is no evidence for God, but seeing as we're in the "Christian Apologetics" forum it puts you in a pretty weak position.

A rather suspicious way of putting it. Perhaps what you meant was "There is proof, and anyone can find it if they look."
Saying, "Anyone is capable of experiencing convincing personal proof" - well, that's true. Anyone is capable of deluding themselves into thinking they have found the truth. Humans are really good at imagining things.

Poisoning the well fallacy. Do you have proof, or evidence? Or does is just exist inside your own mind?

Well, that would make sense, if you don't have any evidence for God being real.

Nonsense. Pure nonsense. What is, is. Evidence may be hard to find, but if God exists then, at least in theory, He is discoverable. If you have nothing to say on this, then all you're doing is preaching on a debating forum.

"Open sincerity" simply means an objective frame of mind. One needs to have a willingness to accept whatever evidence is found and follow each thread to whatever destination it takes you.

As for "evidence", there are different kinds of evidence. You obviously prefer something physical, tangible that can be held in your hand and can be shown to others. I'm persuaded that this type of evidence will never be found with regard to the existence of God.

Your expectations for a book written by men is not very logical or even reasonable. Why should ANY book hold such power? "It should immediately obvious to all that God exists".

A logical way to proceed with this question about the Bible would be to suppose the premise that (1) God exists, (2) that Jesus came to our world to reveal God to mankind.

If the premise above were true, how should we expect normal humans who lived at that time to view such a person? First, we must remember where the human race stood more than 2000 years ago. (i.e. the earth is flat and the social order was full of tons of superstitious beliefs). Is is logical to suddenly expect massive intellectual advancement over night? The Apostles themselves were full of their own prejudices and bigotries. They were hardly perfect humans.

Writers in scripture were "inspired" to write. But what does "inspired" mean? Many with good intentions believe that somehow these witnesses were possessed of extraordinary supernatural understandings and that their writings must be infallible. If this were possible, then logically, Jesus could have given them (Apostles) such understandings with a wave of His hand and did not need to bother with all of the events described in the New Testament. It's my view that people who believe in the perfection of the Bible have their noses too close to the pages of their book.

Bible worship has made it possible for much error in our current world today. Sexual inequality and the hateful persecution of gay people have nothing to do with Jesus' powerful teachings, but they persist because so many unfortunate souls have sought to justify every word in their book written by men.

If YOU seek to find the truth, will you find God if He exists? I don't know that answer. Every man and woman must follow their own path. Jesus did teach that if we "seek, we shall find". I know that I have discovered far more than I ever expected was possible. I have found God, but I don't truly understand Him yet. I learned that God is the absolute of love and logic. The two cannot be separated. My pursuit of the truth continues and with all of the unexpected discoveries I have found, I can't guess where my path will lead.

 

[Tone]

Demonstrate.

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[redleghunter]

Well now, in my experience there are plenty of contradictions in the Bible, but these are only a problem for Christians who say there are none and can be none.

Hand wave noted. How many times have you read the Bible cover to cover within a year?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Hand wave noted. How many times have you read the Bible cover to cover within a year?

I have never read the Bible cover to cover, but I do have a fair knowledge of it.
If you have studied the Bible extensively, it might be best not to admit it, if you are maintaining that there are absolutely no contradictions of any kind within it.
Is that what you think?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

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Ah. You can't? What a shame.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

And it is accurate.....

Is it? Please feel free to provide evidence of that.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

"Open sincerity" simply means an objective frame of mind. One needs to have a willingness to accept whatever evidence is found and follow each thread to whatever destination it takes you.

That's very good. I hope you practise what you preach.

As for "evidence", there are different kinds of evidence. You obviously prefer something physical, tangible that can be held in your hand and can be shown to others. I'm persuaded that this type of evidence will never be found with regard to the existence of God.

Obviously? Why obviously?
No, what I would like is evidence of a good quality. Wouldn't we all?

Your expectations for a book written by men is not very logical or even reasonable. Why should ANY book hold such power? "It should immediately obvious to all that God exists".

Because the book was inspired by God. As such, we would expect it to contain wisdom beyond that which could be produced by normal people. But it doesn't. It's not special in any way.
Come now - if you went into a bookshop and someone said, "Hey, there's a new book here, and it was written by God's chosen people!" you'd expect it to be pretty amazing, wouldn't you? you'd expect it to have a unified and wondrous message. You'd expect it to change your life. You'd expect it to be marvellous and convincing to all. But the Bible has none of that.

A logical way to proceed with this question about the Bible would be to suppose the premise that (1) God exists, (2) that Jesus came to our world to reveal God to mankind.

Of course it wouldn't. The logical way to proceed would be to follow where the evidence leads, as you yourself said.

Is is logical to suddenly expect massive intellectual advancement over night? The Apostles themselves were full of their own prejudices and bigotries. They were hardly perfect humans.

Actually, massive intellectual advancements do happen virtually overnight, yes, in a historical sense. So yes, I would expect a book written at the direction of God Himself to contain something more spectacular than it does.

If YOU seek to find the truth, will you find God if He exists? I don't know that answer. Every man and woman must follow their own path.

No, you don't. Nobody does. Because God is very hard to find, isn't He? Almost as if He doesn't exist. And "follow your own path" is a red herring. Let's see if God exists or not first, then we can have a debate about how we ought to relate to Him.

I have found God, but I don't truly understand Him yet. I learned that God is the absolute of love and logic. The two cannot be separated. My pursuit of the truth continues and with all of the unexpected discoveries I have found, I can't guess where my path will lead.

But have you found God? Do you actually have evidence that He exists?
Presumably you had good reason to believe that God exists. If it was sound reasoning, you should be able to share it with the rest of us, so that we too can be in full possession of the facts.

 

[Tone]

Ah. You can't? What a shame.

The quick and easy way (besides the pic.) is to point out that your basic attack is on something that believers don't even hold to, which @redleghunter correctly pointed out when he said, "Hidden? You do realize why Christians celebrate Christmas? God became flesh to save us." So your christmas story has no comparison to our position as believers in a Creator Who has Personally appeared to us, and again, not necessarily on the physical plane (although He has in history), as @Rodan6 said, "As for "evidence", there are different kinds of evidence. You obviously prefer something physical, tangible that can be held in your hand and can be shown to others." So, this is why the argument you present is fallacious.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Is it? Please feel free to provide evidence of that.

I am waiting for you to commit yourself instead of just dancing around on the edges and trying to drop an occasional zinger.....so far, not impressed.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Maybe some don’t know the Bible as well as an atheist? But what are you defining as a contradiction and perhaps this would be a good thread in its own.

I think you're right. Contradictions would be a good discussion, but let's leave it for anothert thread.

Hidden? You do realize why Christians celebrate Christmas? God became flesh to save us.

So the story goes. Have you ever seen Jesus? Have you ever seen God? No? So, yes, "hidden".

If you are going to mention the bad then the good must be discussed. Jesus actually answers this.

Sorry, got lost a little here. How did I mention "the bad"?

God is not a cosmic sugar daddy answering every prayer for the college student who did not study and wants a higher grade. Prayers hopeful that some professor will make their C an A.

Of course, of course. I quite understand that God does now always answer prayers with a yes. Despite His saying that He would. But I agree, it's reasonable that God would sometimes not answer prayers, or answer them no.
But it's not like that, is it?
Let's see. Imagine this conversation.
A child and a parent are standing together in a room.
Child: Daddy, can I have a new computer?
Daddy: I'm afraid not. The one you have is just fine.
Child: Okay. Daddy, can you buy me a new computer game?
Daddy: It's your birthday next month. I'll buy you one then.
Child: Okay. Can I have some chocolates please?
Daddy: Alright. Just one.

Now, wasn't that a perfectly normal conversation? But it doesn't happen like that with God, does it? It's not, as some Christians say, that God answers all prayers, sometimes yes, sometimes no and sometimes later. God never answers prayers, ever. People pray for things, and sometimes these things happen, but was that an answer from God? Who knows? It might have been an accident. And, by the way, have you noticed that people are always very careful to pray for things that could happen?
You know why? Because they know perfectly well that God never answers impossible prayers. Praying for the impossible is a waste of time. But praying for things that could happen, with or without God's intervention - well, maybe they will.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I am waiting for you to commit yourself instead of just dancing around on the edges and trying to drop an occasional zinger.....so far, not impressed.

Okay. Let me clarify myself.
See those three statements at the bottom of my signature? These are all questions that I have found Christians are unable to answer. Can you answer one, both, or all of them?

Or, in more general terms:
What is your best argument for the existence of God?

 

[Tone]

What is your best argument for the existence of God?

I thought we were already doing that here:

Resurrection Evidence

My best evidence/argument for both (they are practically asking the same thing) is that we have met...personally.

See how this is different than the kid in your christmas story who never says that he actually met santa?

But this is evidence (testimony)/ argument that you brush off as...what...delusion?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I thought we were already doing that here:
Resurrection Evidence
My best evidence/argument for both (they are practically asking the same thing) is that we have met...personally.
See how this is different than the kid in your christmas story who never says that he actually met santa?
But this is evidence (testimony)/ argument that you brush off as...what...delusion?

You met Jesus personally? What, while you were conscious? This is amazing!
You didn't happen to capture this historic meeting on camera or video, did you?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Okay. Let me clarify myself.
See those three statements at the bottom of my signature? These are all questions that I have found Christians are unable to answer. Can you answer one, both, or all of them?

I will follow your rules.....
- Does God command something because it is good, or is it good because God commands it?
They are not mutually exclusive.
- Can you prove that Santa does not exist?
It is not possible to prove, or for that matter, disprove a negative.
- Why don't prayers ever have any effect?
Once more, it is not possible to prove, or for that matter, disprove a negative.
Now, before your protestations start remember I played by your rules. No where did you say you had to agree with the answers I gave.

Or, in more general terms:
What is your best argument for the existence of God?

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit.....something that can only be understood by personal experience.....so that would necessarily exclude you.